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Sharing lift passes

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
volklwaffen wrote:
alex_heney wrote:
volklwaffen wrote:
A few resorts take pictures for the week passes.
Ont he other hand, I would say no one would know (answer D)... but then your insurance will not cover you in any ways should anything happen.


Why do you believe it would affect your insurance in any way?

I have never seen insurance that has in it conditions that you must be in possession of a valid lift pass (except of course for the cover for unused days on the pass).


Would an insurance cover your illegal activities ? The ski pass is not transferable.


It is breach of contract to transfer it, not a criminal offence.

But even if it were a criminal offence, that would not necessarily negate your insurance.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
carroz wrote:
volklwaffen For the Grand Massif with a season pass you have to provide a photo, its printed on the season pass. when you go through the turnstyle it comes up on the lifties screen, last season I got asked on 3 different occasions to remove my helmet and goggles and produce the pass as well, always at molliets for some reason???,


Resorts took pictures for seasons tickets for as long as I can nearly remember. Valmorel was even talking in the 90's of a Valmorel logo Swatch watch equipped with a chip and all your personal details on it, to be sold in the Office du Tourisme an reloadable at will with any form of ski passes.

Resorts do check you at key lifts. Molliets is a platform if you want to connect between Samoens and Flaine. Good spot to catch people from either resorts.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
alex_heney wrote:
volklwaffen wrote:
alex_heney wrote:
volklwaffen wrote:
A few resorts take pictures for the week passes.
Ont he other hand, I would say no one would know (answer D)... but then your insurance will not cover you in any ways should anything happen.


Why do you believe it would affect your insurance in any way?

I have never seen insurance that has in it conditions that you must be in possession of a valid lift pass (except of course for the cover for unused days on the pass).


Would an insurance cover your illegal activities ? The ski pass is not transferable.


It is breach of contract to transfer it, not a criminal offence.

But even if it were a criminal offence, that would not necessarily negate your insurance.


Indeed. I do get that.
However, the resort is also insured for any type of damages it may cause to you or the others. If a third party is injured by you because of what could be perceived at first the resort's negligence, be it lack of signage or any other accident, then you have no way to legally go back to the resort as you do not rightfully carry a ski pass, and your insurance would not assit you as it would have should you had carried the pass.
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anarski wrote:
johnt1236 wrote:
Was in westendoff last week, upgraded one day to ski another resort whilst my card and my sisters where being recoded they where swapped. Next day we where stopped as we had the wrong card. The guy explained certain barriers have cameras that put your photo on but also have facial recognition software. Big brother is watching. Don't know how good it is as with hat goggles etc not much to compare but could tell the difference between sexes.
Johnt, Did they take your photo when you purchased the ticket?


Not when I purchased pass, and in fact got it from the rep, and so was puzzled how photo was on card. The gentleman explained the photo was put on the card the first time I used a lift. Spent time searching for cameras and finally found them in the actual turnstiles above the the lights that either go green or red when you use the card. Must be a way for data to go both ways!
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
volklwaffen,
Quote:

If a third party is injured by you because of what could be perceived at first the resort's negligence, be it lack of signage or any other accident, then you have no way to legally go back to the resort as you do not rightfully carry a ski pass, and your insurance would not assit you as it would have should you had carried the pass.

I don't understand why that would be. What if you had skinned up?
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Of course, this thread has to be one of the most tedious ones I have contributed to, but I still can't quite resist a couple more comments:

1. With reference to the suggestion that the Lift Operators should sell special passes aimed at families where only one parent skis at a time. First this is a solution to a problem that does not exist. How many people are in this situation? Probably less than half a dozen in the resort at any one time. As it would also be impractical to demand proof of the non-skiing child then this simply becomes a transferable pass between two named people. Impractical, and unfair on the L.O. Just buy day passes. That is what they are there for.

2. When you actually consider the price of a lift pass it is incredily good value. 200 euros for an entire week of skiing. The L.O.s have to build, maintain, staff the lifts, the pistes, the piste bashers, piste patrol etc. compare all that to a crappy day at Legoland. So, my view is....... Just buy the passes and stop whingeing!
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:

200 euros for an entire week of skiing

closer to 250 or even 300 euros in some places
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
foxtrotzulu wrote:
Of course, this thread has to be one of the most tedious ones I have contributed to, but I still can't quite resist a couple more comments:

1. With reference to the suggestion that the Lift Operators should sell special passes aimed at families where only one parent skis at a time. First this is a solution to a problem that does not exist. How many people are in this situation? Probably less than half a dozen in the resort at any one time. As it would also be impractical to demand proof of the non-skiing child then this simply becomes a transferable pass between two named people. Impractical, and unfair on the L.O. Just buy day passes. That is what they are there for.


Oh boo hoo unfair on the lift operator - lots of resorts in the US don't seem to have a problem selling "parent" passes even on a day basis but then they are competing in a competitive market and know that Mum & kid will be spending cash in the lodge or shops while Dad skis and vice versa and that the customers have got plenty of other stuff to do e.g. other weekend activities which means they're lost skier days if skiing isn't affordable.

AIUI they are pretty popular and it strikes me as a smart move that resorts in Europe should offer them maybe at a small premium. If they're so concerned about fraud they can insist the entire family presents itself when buying the pass. But if resorts in Europe want to be lazy in their business model relying on the sheep that flock in for 6 days every week and don't challenge the status quo that's up to them.
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There's a whole array of lift pass types, depending on where you go. Points cards where you pay per ride, N days from 7 cards, or N days not consecutive etc. You don''t have to have a bog standard 6 day area pass. Plus there are small resorts where the ticket prices are probably half that of the mega-linked resorts.

I'd expect that any childcare friendly hotel/chalet operator is more than willing to discuss and arrange the most appropriate lift passes.

Doesn't bother me at all if anyone shares, but if they get caught, don't complain. Don't complain about not being told or not seeing it in the small print or not being obvious on the website. Just looked at my last pass... it's written on the back! Basically says not transferable, and pass remains the property of the lift co. in 3 languages.
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Fair or unfair... thing is majority of lift passes are non-transferable (there actually are some transferable but they cost more and I guess that's also not fair). This means, you buy two if two of you are skiing. It really is as simple as that. If you think this is not fair, or too expensive or against whatever belief you have, then just don't go skiing, and stop complaining about world not being fair. And certainly, please don't complain once they will catch you and you will end up with lift pass being taken away and probably you will have some extra payment on top of that.
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Read an interesting piece today that lift operators in Austria are starting to trial facial recognition technology as your lift pass, so you will no longer receive a card and a photo will be taken at point of purchase which will be your pass for the week.

Not sure how it would work when Helmets Goggles and balaclava are added but is this the future?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Fattes13 wrote:
is this the future?


Sounds a bit more like 1984... wink
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Almost same system is working for ages (at least in Austria)... .just that until now it wasn't automatic Wink There's little camera on gate, where you press your lift pass, and operator in lift cabine 5m away gets your photo on screen. With longer term passes, which are equipped with photo (season/month/...) he also gets photo attached to season pass on screen, so it's no big deal to compare them. And you don't need to be some forensic expert to see difference between men and women... well in most cases Smile
Next to this, some systems take photo when you use daily pass for first time, and liftee gets photo of you when you used pass for first time and your current photo. And yes, it's still not that much of problem to see difference Wink So feel free and try your luck. If you manage to get by with this, it's not because they wouldn't notice it, but because they didn't care enough to walk out of liftee hut and take your ski pass away Wink
PS: In Austria majority of lifts (at least in medium/bigger resorts) operates on Skidata, and every single Skidata system has this system working Wink If you ever wandered why sometimes you have liftees standing near check gates, with some small wireless terminal in their hands... well just because of checking this Wink
PS #2: If you want to read some more on this...
http://www.skidata.com/en/mountain-destinations/access-readers-turnstiles/freemotiongate.html
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

lots of resorts in the US don't seem to have a problem selling "parent" passes even on a day basis but then they are competing in a competitive market and know that Mum & kid will be spending cash in the lodge or shops

That's because they own the lodge and the shops. European lift companies aren't that bothered what you spend on lunch and shopping because they don't see any of it.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
foxtrotzulu,
Quote:
this thread has to be one of the most tedious ones I have contributed to

You haven't been here long. Stick around. Toofy Grin Laughing Very Happy snowHead Laughing

Quote:
First this is a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Clearly the lift companies don't think so. Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this very point.

Quote:
When you actually consider the price of a lift pass it is incredily good value.

So you would be happy to pay 20/30/50% more? However, that is not really the point here. The question is purely a moral or customer service one.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
foxtrotzulu wrote:

1. With reference to the suggestion that the Lift Operators should sell special passes aimed at families where only one parent skis at a time. First this is a solution to a problem that does not exist. How many people are in this situation? Probably less than half a dozen in the resort at any one time.

And yet almost every North American pass that I've purchased allows days off (eg ski on 8 days over a 12 day period). This arrangement doesn't just benefit families - it suits anyone who wants to break up their skiing with a little sightseeing, relaxation or a trip to a neighbouring resort. The demand is clearly there.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Layne, .
Quote:

First this is a solution to a problem that does not exist
The lift companies probably aren't discussing this. I was referring to the idea of 'parent passes', not the issue of transferability.

Quote:

So you would be happy to pay 20/30/50% more?
I wouldn't be happy, but I still maintain that it represents pretty fair value. I can't think of many other similar entertainments/activities which offer the same value. Think how grumpy we would be if skiing was like Disneyland/Legoland. Forty minute queues to get on a 2 minute ride.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
foxtrotzulu,
Quote:
The lift companies probably aren't discussing this. I was referring to the idea of 'parent passes', not the issue of transferability.

Is there really a big issue of transferability? How many people actually do it and what percentage of income does hit them for? Maybe I am naive and there is a whole scam of transferability hitting them for millions of Euros. But I doubt it. Because it affects so few punters there's not going to be a hoo ha about it... apart from on snowHead of course Laughing but I would have been thoroughly hacked off if I'd got caught and reprimanded the only time I did it. I was trying to rip them off. Even sharing we used less lift time than many.
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Layne, you are thinking as an occasional visitor. This system is not there to sort out the odd mum or Dad switching passes while the other one baby sits, it is to do with catching the locals skiing for free. Before these chip cards we all had to have photos on passes for more than a a couple of days, they were not transferable either!

I lost count of the number of times I saw locals tossing the pass down to mates as they headed off up the mountain. Where lifts cross pistes this used to be the norm for a certain age group. Even the ones that were wired to your jackets were given the snip and used multiple times.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Lizzard, but as representative of a Euro ski resort why aren't they providing a parent pass (maybe you are) - nice differentiator in a market catering to families?

Because it's never been done? Because they don't believe in "fair" value? Because you can milk a family for 2 full adult passes so why try harder?
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Easy solution: don't have children - they're not compulsory.

Ever so slightly more difficult solution: look for the bargains. Last week in Albiez-Montrond I noticed that, in school holidays, they were offering 6-day lift passes for 2 adults and 2 children at a smidge under 240 euros total. Okay, I know, the place won't suit everybody - but it would certainly suit quite a few famillies.
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under a new name, don't know which resort you are looking at but there is def a ban in the T&C's in Les Arcs and virtually every resort I have ever skiied in (as far as I am aware). They are very strict on this in the US. I just had a glance at the Les Arcs terms and conditons and it goes into exquisite detail about what will happen your @rse if you break the terms of usage of the pass and get caught including the parts of the French Code under which they will levy the fines, etc.

The usual method of detection is - as I said - photo i.d. For day passes and the like I agree you could prob dodge it but why bother?

alex_heney, Carre Niege - doesn't work unless you also buy a ski pass.

volklwaffen,
Quote:

The only way out is to pay cash, mention upon purchase it is not for you but for a relative of the same gender, and not take the Carre Neige (which is nominative). That way, should anything happen you are covered regardless of the story you want to feed the insurance companies.

you'll have to explain that.

foxtrotzulu, r u kidding?? It's almost freakin' required uniform nowadays. The only reason I don't do it is that I don't want anyone confusing me with a snowboarder

I hate to break it to you nice people but facial recogniton software developed by the gaming industry is quietly at work in the ski pass business, I've seen a few of those stupid cameras dotted around the ticket booths so - as mentioned above - you may not need to submit a photo for a picture to be tied to your card.

There is also another argument and it's self-interest driven, If the lift companies do not make money, they close - it's already happening in the Alps. So buy your pass and support your favourite slope!

In Les Arcs they have provided a solution to this issue. I have a Carte Zen, everyone simply gets one of those and life is soooooo much simpler (and much cheaper if you ski 19+ days per year but less than a season) - I recommend it to the house, peace y'all.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Samerberg Sue, fair play.
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volklwaffen wrote:
However, the resort is also insured for any type of damages it may cause to you or the others. If a third party is injured by you because of what could be perceived at first the resort's negligence, be it lack of signage or any other accident, then you have no way to legally go back to the resort as you do not rightfully carry a ski pass, and your insurance would not assit you as it would have should you had carried the pass.


Maybe just maybe in N America but in Europe utter horseshit. Ever seen those nutcases skinning up the pistes, or showshoeing or whatever? Think they've all used the lifts? Your lift pass gives you right to use the lifts in Europe, it's not a precondition for skiing down the mountain. As I said N America can be difficult and they can get arsey about hikers trying to "trespass" on their leasehold or private property.
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why should families get discount anyway, they still take up a seat, their kids still get in the way, they still moan about everything and ruin the flight over there

families should pay more, IMHO
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Quote:

why should families get discount anyway, they still take up a seat, their kids still get in the way, they still moan about everything

This. Laughing Laughing
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
RattytheSnowRat,

Quote:

don't know which resort you are looking at but


Oh, must be my mistake, I thought that, "the 3Vs website" was sufficiently precise.

Quote:

there is def a ban in the T&C's in Les Arcs


And this pertains how?

Quote:

They are very strict on this in the US


Strict on what? In some states f'r instance, they are really quite strict on sodomy: but again, I fail to see the relevance. Or is that how the Les Arcs management team punish those naughty perpetrators of naughty things?

"Bend over lad (or lass), you've got it coming..." (which would, I imagine, be particularly poor timing).
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See section 2 of the T&Cs

http://s3v.skipass-3vallees-courchevel.com/Fichiers/Internet/cgv/cgv_1601_EN.pdf
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
anarski wrote:
Only last week Mrs Anarski bought a daypass at a top resort only to be approached immediately by a guy who had given up after one run due to mild injury. He didn't want any money. I have no idea about the T&Cs but I am sure they say the ticket is non-transferable.
Had he showed up a couple of minutes earlier and she had accepted his pass, would she have been caught?
...and the answer to to my question, we now learn is "probably yes". The guy's photo would have been taken by the camera in the barrier at the gondola bottom station. If it was very busy she may have got away with it, but when she was squeezing in the last run and the barriers were empty, quite likely the liftie would have spotted her. Thanks everyone for an enlightening thread.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Jonny Jones wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:

1. With reference to the suggestion that the Lift Operators should sell special passes aimed at families where only one parent skis at a time. First this is a solution to a problem that does not exist. How many people are in this situation? Probably less than half a dozen in the resort at any one time.

And yet almost every North American pass that I've purchased allows days off (eg ski on 8 days over a 12 day period). This arrangement doesn't just benefit families - it suits anyone who wants to break up their skiing with a little sightseeing, relaxation or a trip to a neighbouring resort. The demand is clearly there.


That type of ticket is also widely available in Europe.

And indeed was the type of ticket the OP was talking of.

It isn't that type we are discussing, but whether there should be a ticket which allows person A to use it one day and person B to use it another day.

I tend also to believe that there isn't enough demand for that to be worthwhile for the lift companies. If they perceived a demand, I'm sure they would offer them (at a premium over the non-transferable ones).
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
alti - dude,

No, see http://www.les3vallees.com/images/pdf/CGV_tarifs_1213_en.pdf

I see your point, but many wouldn't
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
fatbob wrote:
volklwaffen wrote:
However, the resort is also insured for any type of damages it may cause to you or the others. If a third party is injured by you because of what could be perceived at first the resort's negligence, be it lack of signage or any other accident, then you have no way to legally go back to the resort as you do not rightfully carry a ski pass, and your insurance would not assit you as it would have should you had carried the pass.


Maybe just maybe in N America but in Europe utter horseshit. Ever seen those nutcases skinning up the pistes, or showshoeing or whatever? Think they've all used the lifts? Your lift pass gives you right to use the lifts in Europe, it's not a precondition for skiing down the mountain. As I said N America can be difficult and they can get arsey about hikers trying to "trespass" on their leasehold or private property.


The issue here is not trespassing as as you mentioned, in France at least, the resorts are not private property.

The thing is when one skins/snow shoes/walks his way up to ski the slopes and NEVER buys a ski pass, then one is not in the very difficult and near untenable position, should anything happen, of having swapped one where the small print and even its reverse mentions black on white "Not Transferable".
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
RattytheSnowRat, seriously?? People are wearing big floppy hats on the piste? They must look complete plonkers. What next? Those plastic baseball hats beloved by wannabe rappers? Those knitted bin bags that Rastas wear? Trilbys?
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under a new name,

This is an introductory headline referring the user to the detailed terms and conditions (which by buying a pass you are confirming you will abide by) ie what I have posted. Agree that it's the small print referring to the small print however!
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alti - dude, hmmm. I will agree, but under English contract law it wouldn't bevalid... I don't think,not neing a lawyer, just a recent client of such...
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RattytheSnowRat wrote:
volklwaffen,
Quote:

The only way out is to pay cash, mention upon purchase it is not for you but for a relative of the same gender, and not take the Carre Neige (which is nominative). That way, should anything happen you are covered regardless of the story you want to feed the insurance companies.

you'll have to explain that.


What I meant is : The less tracks you are leaving regarding your payments, the more margin of maneuver you are left with should you need to explain/justify anything.

Cash money is one of, if not the last very liberty you are left with in this world.

Ever wondered why everyone everywhere encourages card payments ? I doubt it is for the sake of your comfort, convenience and well-being.
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Glad i came across this post as was planning on sharing my pass with the mrs when out in courch next week with the littlun. Hadn't crossed my mind that it would be a problem as had assumed it would be like sharing an oyster pass. So although more expense than planning at least i'm now in the know...
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under a new name wrote:
alti - dude, hmmm. I will agree, but under English contract law it wouldn't bevalid... I don't think,not neing a lawyer, just a recent client of such...


So long as the T&C were pointed out to you, and you had a "reasonable opportunity" to become acquainted with them, then they will be valid (insofar as they don't conflict with any other laws).
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Quote:

Must be a way for data to go both ways!

Obviously there is. How did you think that 'recharge your pass online' thing worked?
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foxtrotzulu,
Quote:

Those plastic baseball hats beloved by wannabe rappers? Those knitted bin bags that Rastas wear? Trilbys?


seen all of the above on piste and wierder. And the PC way of describing Rasta headgear is 'tea cosy', innit.

Thinking about it the issue could be criminal. Obtaining a pecuinary advantage by deception/fraud come to mind. So, theoretically, you could get a criminal record if caught. The London equivalent would be tube fair dodging. There was a scam many used which was to buy the cheapest ticket poss. then get off at a much higher cost stop they knew would not have late staff on. So they had a legitimate ticket but it did not comply with the terms of use. Various people were charged and have criminal records. Don't see why swapping your ski pass would be treated differently if the terms of use say it is verbotten to swap and the right for use is specifc to the person to whom the card was issued.

Since under a new name is being so bloody bolshie I volunteer him for a represenative court case on our behalf (from the sound of it, I'm betting he's already got priors for this offence). Anyone second the motion?

volklwaffen, m8 - you are getting it the wrong way round. For both insurance and the pass the onus is on YOU to prove your entitlement, not on 'them' to prove you don't have the right. Everything you suggest would make it more difficult to prove that, if push came to shove. The less proof you have, the less either the ski patrol or the insurance company need to take any notice of what you claim.
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