 Poster: A snowHead
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| johnt1236 wrote: |
| Was in westendoff last week, upgraded one day to ski another resort whilst my card and my sisters where being recoded they where swapped. Next day we where stopped as we had the wrong card. The guy explained certain barriers have cameras that put your photo on but also have facial recognition software. Big brother is watching. Don't know how good it is as with hat goggles etc not much to compare but could tell the difference between sexes. |
Johnt, Did they take your photo when you purchased the ticket?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's worth noting that many of the large, more professional Lift operators/ticket office staff are also Snowheads who read these forums but rarely if ever contribute: I know for certain that PDS, Verbier and Chamonix have some members, which isn't surprising given that they earn their living from the mountains. I'd be astonished if they don't network with each other when an interesting post develops.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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anarski, Verbier they take it first use and use op/sytems to monitor later use during the day! I was pulled aside for carrying wife's skis down to locker using her day pass as the locker was pass/operated. Our passes did not have photos taken or attached. Pretty standard systems for a big resort - just a question of how they configure the technology. I have a feeling CDA use a similar system for the Grand-Massif as the hardware is new and very similar.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Jivebaby wrote: |
| It's worth noting that many of the large, more professional Lift operators/ticket office staff are also Snowheads who read these forums but rarely if ever contribute: I know for certain that PDS, Verbier and Chamonix have some members, which isn't surprising given that they earn their living from the mountains. I'd be astonished if they don't network with each other when an interesting post develops. |
I'd be most surprised if they have never come across the transfering of passes that are nominally non-transferable. I am sure it happens multiple times every day at every resort.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Only last week Mrs Anarski bought a daypass at a top resort only to be approached immediately by a guy who had given up after one run due to mild injury. He didn't want any money. I have no idea about the T&Cs but I am sure they say the ticket is non-transferable.
Had he showed up a couple of minutes earlier and she had accepted his pass, would she have been caught?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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In England, I think it would count as theft or obtaining services by deception, or an offence under Criminal Justice Act or Railways Act. I'm sure there is something similar in other countries - although it is possible it is only a civil offence, against the lift company. I think moral debates are more relevant when there is no offence.
Surprised if you were caught, I often just buy so many 6 day passes- they don't know who they are for, what gender. Unless they start taking photos of you during use, as a previous poster said had happened. Nevertheless, if your employment requires you not to have a criminal record, it is probably not worth the (very small) risk to save a few euros.
They should really introduce a special lift ticket for parents who want to share a pass and caring for children.
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elbrus55, good point about a criminal record and how this could affect employability. I also agree that introducing a shared pass product day or max 1 week would be a constructive move to help those in a position to use the product. I am concerned that whatever price premium it was compared to a parallel day/week rate that the LO co's would be accused of "ripping" skiers off. Maybe that's a question our candidate for Chamonix can suggest an answer for? Bearing in mind half day passes vary at around 75% I'd suggest that a 50% loading is fair. I suggest this as the wear n tear on equipment, lift power, and variable overheads will increase more with that option than a single use pass and for resorts to stay open all season they need to generate profits.
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I think we all presume that sharing lift passes is a violation of some law or other. But lift companies can easily envisage that this takes place, and so the question is whether they choose to ignore it or take measures to prevent it.
It is interesting to know that some resorts may link a secretly taken photo to your lift pass to stop you transferring it to someone else.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| anarski wrote: |
It is interesting to know that some resorts may link a secretly taken photo to your lift pass to stop you transferring it to someone else. |
Surely it is illegal to do this in france?
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Risky business's, but if it saves a week of toil maybe, first off on a hangover we take it or bust... a cell is just a camper an with electricity and space,hey we ain't starvin
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I was at the small resort of Klewenalp-Stockhutte just south of Luzern. I lost my lift-pass, when it fell out of my pocket at lunchtime. I went to the nearest cash desk, wallet in hand, ready to buy a new pass. The guy at the desk said - don't worry about it, here's a replacement, free. Didn't ask for id, a receipt or anything.
Using someone else's ticket is a breach of contract at many resorts. There's no getting around that. My reading of the T&C's at Bad Gastein suggest that using the lifts without a ticket is against the law, but sharing tickets is merely a contract breach. The potential lack of insurance for that violation is a more serious issue.
There are two separate issues though, that seem to be clouded by the moral outrage that someone might actually try to optimise their lift-pass purchases. (It's comforting to know that there are people on these forums who have never done anything wrong, ever. Except smug self-righteousness of course! ).
1. The penalties are often way over what is required to protect the legitimate interests of the resort - this would be interesting, but expensive, to challenge in court!
2. The resorts do not offer flexible enough pricing models to suit everyone
The experience of Arnarski at Mirabel shows to me that there is a problem. I'd be outraged if that happened to me. That is terrible customer service. At the moment I guess they're relying on sheer numbers for their income, but it is a dangerous business model.
I'll stick to buying singles. Some resorts allow you to charge your keycard over the internet - so that'd avoid having to queue each morning.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| NotAllThere wrote: |
It's comforting to know that there are people on these forums who have never done anything wrong, ever. Except smug self-righteousness of course!
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Who said that, or even implied it?
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| elbrus55 wrote: |
| NotAllThere wrote: |
It's comforting to know that there are people on these forums who have never done anything wrong, ever. Except smug self-righteousness of course!
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Who said that, or even implied it? |
NotAllThere wrote it. And I for one agree.
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You know it makes sense.
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| shep wrote: |
| anarski wrote: |
It is interesting to know that some resorts may link a secretly taken photo to your lift pass to stop you transferring it to someone else. |
Surely it is illegal to do this in france? |
It may not be secret - they may disclose it somewhere.
Is it illegal to take cctv in a shop to use against potential thieves in france, or inadmissible as evidence ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| anarski wrote: |
| elbrus55 wrote: |
| NotAllThere wrote: |
It's comforting to know that there are people on these forums who have never done anything wrong, ever. Except smug self-righteousness of course!
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Who said that, or even implied it? |
NotAllThere wrote it. And I for one agree. |
All posts are pointing out facts like rules and laws and their own experience and assessing the risk.
Nobody has been self righteous. You are reading things into other people's posts which were not said, and quite probably were not meant.
PS may God strike you down with all his vengence if you share a lift pass! (now you are right)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| elbrus55 wrote: |
| ...It may not be secret - they may disclose it somewhere.... |
They do. Hidden in their full terms and conditions which are quite hard to find.
"But the T&Cs were on display ..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a flashlight."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
"Yes," said NAT, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Let's face it - lift companies rely on only a percentage of people being on the mountain at one time. Take away everyone in bars having a drink, in restaurants having lunch, the injured and sick having the odd day/half day off, the fine weather skiers, the let's-do-something-different-today spa/snowshow/trip to somewhere else people etc and probably only half the people who have bought a lift pass are actually using the lifts/skiing at one time. (Yes, this is a guess!)
If everyone swapped passes for maximum use it would be horrendous. But yes, I agree, maybe there is a market for a "family" pass where, if you bought a child pass, Mum could use the adult pass am and Dad pm. (Or vice versa. Or something.)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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standyc, can't be bothered reading the other pages, the 3Vs website allows you to buy online, deliver to home, photo only required for "specialist" tickets eg season passes, and nothing in their refreshingly brief Ts & Cs about 6 day passes not being transferable.
SO I don't see how they could even enfore it should they wish to, which they don't seem to want to do anyway.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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maggi,
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If everyone swapped passes for maximum use it would be horrendous.
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Would it?
From your examples:
Stopping in bar/restaurant... can't imagine anyone would swap for an hour. Many are up on the mountain anyhow.
Injured/ill... take it back or claim it off insurance. How many people have someone on standby to use it.
Fine weather skiers. Again, you have someone on standby who wants to go out in crappy weather?
I just don't see that many wanting to transfer.
But let's look at this from a different angle. How many days have you skied when there have been a handful of lifts open? I've been in Les Arcs when the cable to the top of Ag. Rouge was closed the whole week! I've been sat on a broken chair lift for 10-15 minutes a number of times. I've also spend a fair bit of time queueing at various pinch points. How does all that stack up in terms of their end of the contract!?
I find it a bit sad they are fining and taking lift passes for petty infringements. More of a moral than a legal debate I guess.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think the chances of getting caught are very small in most resorts, but the moral argument is more interesting. In my view it is morally wrong to swap passes. I'm not saying you are a wicked person for doing it, or that I would never do something like that myself, it is simply that the T&C say you are not allowed to do it and by buying the pass you accept the rules. If the T&C say that you must wear a pink flowery dress then that's what you do. If you don't want to, then don't agree the contract. Simples 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Somewhere in the Maurienne last week I saw a liftie with a handheld gadget. When one of the gates went ping in front of me he clearly checked the image on the gadget and then took a photo of - what I can only assume must be - a season pass holder.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I think the chances of getting caught are very small in most resorts, but the moral argument is more interesting. In my view it is morally wrong to swap passes. I'm not saying you are a wicked person for doing it, or that I would never do something like that myself, it is simply that the T&C say you are not allowed to do it and by buying the pass you accept the rules. If the T&C say that you must wear a pink flowery dress then that's what you do. If you don't want to, then don't agree the contract. Simples |
That's pretty much my position as well. What tipped it over the edge for me was the lack of publicity they were taking photos, and the disproportionate penalty for breaking their rules.
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bertie bassett, I have many times gone on my own to buy passes for my whole family, so how can they tell whose is whose? In Les Arcs if you buy online then the pass has your name on it. If you buy at the sales booth they they just say adulte or enfant. In the past we may well have swapped lift passes as sometimes they end up in a pile on the table and get redistributed the next day.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Have not read all of this but it will generally be a breach of the terms of purchase i.e. much as with football tickets, they are not transferable. If caught, you can be subject to loss of the pass and possibly civil action for loss of profit (they will have a record of when the pass was used although generally they should go after the person using the pass). Nowadays in many of the resorts your photo comes up on a display on the gate so the attendent can see that the authorised holder is using the pass, generally at 'choke' or lower boarding points (this is the case in Les Arcs, you can generally tell which gates because they staff them with women).
NB I would be very leery of taking a pass off someone I did not know. People may try and claim for 'theft' of a ski pass they have given away or may innocently hand on a found pass which has been taken in a related theft and you could well become the focus of a criminal investigation. It would be very hard to argue you were not involved if you turned out to be (innocently) in the same bar on the same evening as the theft.
If you are going to swap or borrow passes, keep it to same sex, wear large floppy hats, googles, a helmet and a full face mask! If that doesn't work, then you better be able to ski faster than the locals. Otherwise I'd give it a miss.
NotAllThere, that's a question of degree, not morality. If you get hung for stealing a lamb and the penalty is the same as for stealing a sheep and you knew it then the moral issue is the same, should you be hung in either event? Also I suspect your pass replacement guy may have recognised you or identifeid you in some way. Also there is the possibility that if you were only there to the end of the week, the lift company had a PR policy of not making an issue and instead making a re-issue!. You'd certainly be more likely to return after what they did and they lose virtually nothing for doing it. Finally I bet someone had already handed the lost pass in! This is all written on the assumption that God has spared his wrath, if not - my condolences ...
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RattytheSnowRat, "wear large floppy hats" that might make you stand out a little!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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RattytheSnowRat, the point being, for theOP that there is neither any means to police nor anything in the publicised Ts and cs that would prevent you buying a 6 day pass and 2 people using it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A few resorts take pictures for the week passes.
Ont he other hand, I would say no one would know (answer D)... but then your insurance will not cover you in any ways should anything happen.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Layne wrote: |
maggi,
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If everyone swapped passes for maximum use it would be horrendous.
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But let's look at this from a different angle. How many days have you skied when there have been a handful of lifts open? I've been in Les Arcs when the cable to the top of Ag. Rouge was closed the whole week! I've been sat on a broken chair lift for 10-15 minutes a number of times.
I find it a bit sad they are fining and taking lift passes for petty infringements. More of a moral than a legal debate I guess. |
The advantage of ski-ing in smaller resorts : free passes when the weather is quite rough and most lifts are close. They just give you a free pass. That is exactly what happened January last year over a few days in les Karellis and St Francois Longchamp where I got day and half day free passes.
As a comparison, two years ago or so, Tignes on the other hand was merciless. The STGM was asking for the whole fee despite the resort being reduced to the slalom stadium and an extra one or twol useless lifts.
But once again, are they comparable ? As both proposed at that given time only a handful of lifts and slopes. Yes. But what of the staff and other charges incurred over the season ? Tignes can afford some sort of loss I'd say as opposed to smaller resorts which do not drag vast amount of clients from all over the world. So, I am a bit confused when it come to this. Greed ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Well, maybe the resorts will have to revert to the old style points ski passes : Chamrousse and many others use to operate a transferable ski pass where you had either 10 or 20 points which were perforated at every lifts you were taking. Some were one, two or three points. Once all perforated you had to go back and buy some more. Ideal for parents and 2 to 5 absolute beginners kids who did not necessarly ski-ed full day all over the resort. Moreover, the skipass was valid over the season ! That was the 70's...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| altis wrote: |
| Somewhere in the Maurienne last week I saw a liftie with a handheld gadget. When one of the gates went ping in front of me he clearly checked the image on the gadget and then took a photo of - what I can only assume must be - a season pass holder. |
Got that in St Francois Longchamp !
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| anarski wrote: |
I once was caught doing this at Meribel!
I was alone with my 3yr old daughter entering the Rhodos 1 bubble at Chaudanne. As my daughter was very small I had to carry her through the turnstile. However her pass beeped instead of mine. It was midday and we were the only people there, so the liftie noticed (from the beep or from his screen?) that it was a child entering. The liftie came over to investigate and asked to see my adult pass. Fair enough. I showed him mine, but when he put it into his computer it came up as registered to a woman. I explained I must have mixed it up with my wife's pass and he could see that 2 adult and 2 kids passes had been bought on the same transaction, so he half believed me. He was polite and understanding, but took it very seriously indeed. He could not check if the pass was mine because the passes had been bought by the chalet company under their name. He wanted to call the police, as I had committed an offence if he let me go he might never see me again!
Then a more senior guy turned up and took pity on me because I was with a small child. They agreed to let me leave as long as I promised to immediately bring back my pass or the receipt. At first they wanted to keep the child as "hostage", but they settled on keeping our passes and our skis while we walked up to our chalet.
If it hadn't been empty at the lift station he would never have spotted it in the first place. But beware. |
Probably screens. For example, the Olympique cabins station is fitted with a few. You can see them when you pass the turnstiles and turn your head right, slightly up. They are behind the windows, by the controls. Same at Funival, but at desk level behind the glass where the attendant sits.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| anarski wrote: |
| elbrus55 wrote: |
| NotAllThere wrote: |
It's comforting to know that there are people on these forums who have never done anything wrong, ever. Except smug self-righteousness of course!
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Who said that, or even implied it? |
NotAllThere wrote it. And I for one agree. |
Why on earth do you agree with a post that is claiming to "know" something (and be "comforted" by it) when nobody has posted anything which anybody could take to imply that.
How on earth he "knows" that (unless he is claiming he is one of those people) I have no idea.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| elbrus55 wrote: |
| shep wrote: |
| anarski wrote: |
It is interesting to know that some resorts may link a secretly taken photo to your lift pass to stop you transferring it to someone else. |
Surely it is illegal to do this in france? |
It may not be secret - they may disclose it somewhere.
Is it illegal to take cctv in a shop to use against potential thieves in france, or inadmissible as evidence ? |
Only the authorities can use covert surveillance in a public place or private place with public access. Private bodies need to declare their usage to CNIL (a govt body) and justify its use. They can only store the data for one month, and prominent signage has to be in place at the surveillance location.
volklwaffen Points cards are still widely available (here in the PDS for example), but in electronic form. You buy a certain number loaded onto the pass, then each time you insert the card at the turnstile the screen tells you how many points are left. It's relatively expensive way to get your uplift (not so if just doing a few kiddy lifts), but is transferable and valid for the season.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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volklwaffen For the Grand Massif with a season pass you have to provide a photo, its printed on the season pass. when you go through the turnstyle it comes up on the lifties screen, last season I got asked on 3 different occasions to remove my helmet and goggles and produce the pass as well, always at molliets for some reason???,
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 25-02-13 22:38; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| volklwaffen wrote: |
A few resorts take pictures for the week passes.
Ont he other hand, I would say no one would know (answer D)... but then your insurance will not cover you in any ways should anything happen. |
Why do you believe it would affect your insurance in any way?
I have never seen insurance that has in it conditions that you must be in possession of a valid lift pass (except of course for the cover for unused days on the pass).
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A lot of resorts do still have points passes, but the ones I have looked at are so expensive that they are really only useful for non-skiers wanting to just use one of the main base lifts to meet a skier for lunch or something similar.
And with modern hands-free systems, they don't need to mark the pass, it automatically deducts the relevant points each time you go through a lift barrier.
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alex_heney, les carroz has a beginners pass that allows various goes at certain lifts, twice up the main gondola i think and then twice ? up the main plein soleil chair plus 1 other?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| volklwaffen wrote: |
A few resorts take pictures for the week passes.
Ont he other hand, I would say no one would know (answer D)... but then your insurance will not cover you in any ways should anything happen. |
Why do you believe it would affect your insurance in any way?
I have never seen insurance that has in it conditions that you must be in possession of a valid lift pass (except of course for the cover for unused days on the pass). |
Would an insurance cover your illegal activities ? The ski pass is not transferable.
The only way out is to pay cash, mention upon purchase it is not for you but for a relative of the same gender, and not take the Carre Neige (which is nominative). That way, should anything happen you are covered regardless of the story you want to feed the insurance companies.
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volklwaffen It's relatively expensive way to get your uplift (not so if just doing a few kiddy lifts), but is transferable and valid for the season.[/quote]
As I do not have any family of my own I was not even aware they were still going. On the other hand, I am not surprised they are expensive in order to push people who do not come often to go for the obvious week pass.
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FAQ
