 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sarahwalker,
Welcome to  , sorry you have not taken to the alpine side of things and I hope you enjoy the Norwegian style better.
The majority of ski resorts that I have been to will have some kind of x country set up where it is possible to give it a try. An awful lot of them though do not have a particularly extensive or enjoyable looking set ups.
I have only tries x country a few times and though I enjoy it but find alpine more appealing so have limited experience. Of the places that I have been to the best looking set up for both is Davos. It has really good lift served skiing as welll as loads of x country tracks going form the edge of the resort into lots of side valleys served by a well organised bus service so you can go a long way and not worry about how to get back.
Serre Chevalier has good and reasonably extensive x country skiing starting up at Monetier. There is further stunning x country skiing up at Vallee Claree which is one of the most attractive valleys I have been to in the French Alps. Although it is not far from SerreChe (Briancon end)I am not sure how good transport to it is if you do not have a car. I am sure the tourist office will help if you are interested. There is furthur excellent and attractive x country up at Cervieres which is also a short distance from Briancon. Serre Che is a top resort for alpine skiing
One of the French alps top x country areas and relatively high altitude and snow sure is up at Bessans at the top end of ther Maurienne valley. It is easily reached by a bus service from Val Cenis or vica versa if you choose to stay in Bessans. Val Cenis is arelativvely small but inexpensive and good quality ski area.
Hope this gives you some ideas.
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sarahwalker, I'm in a similar boat. My girlfriend only cross country skis, but I do both and prefer downhill. We have struggled to find resorts suitable for us both. La Clusaz in France has probably fit the bill the best. World class cross country and good downhill. Bad Gastein was also good with better downhill, although the cross country somewhat more limited. Seefeld is also a world class cross country resort, but very limited for downhill.
I haven't been to either, but Davos and St Moritz certainly look like fantastic (and fantastically expensive) options.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Agree withT Bar, about Monetier les Bains in Serre Chevalier would be a good place to sample cross country skiing and there is 250km of linked skiing with the local Monetier area being geared up towards intermediate and advanced downhill skiiers.
Even if you don't want to do X Country for the whole week there are enough things to do in the valley.
http://www.serre-chevalier.com/Introduction
http://www.serre-chevalier.com/Nordic-skiing
Share your views on the Claree. The waterfall up towards Fontcouverte and Nevache is beautiful.
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 sarahwalker, welcome to Snowheads. The answer could be Les Saisies. It is one of the top cross country destinations in France - and the cross country area is higher and more snowsure, and also more interesting, than most (in some places there are just a few token trails down in the valley, flat and therefore boring and often with poor snow). All kinds of trails from green to black. I think the one in the picture was blue. Plenty of lessons available - I've had two weeks of lessons and am still rubbish (OK uphill, OK on the level, but rubbish at downhill, which is really tricky on cross country skis). For Alpine skiers, LS is part of the lift linked Espace Diamant which has 185kms of skiing, nothing very challenging on piste - mostly blues and reds, some blacks but not that many, or that difficult - but some good and pretty accessible off piste for those into that.
When in February? If you can avoid the French holidays (all but the first week) things are much quieter, and cheaper. Accommodation in Les Saisies will be at a bit of a premium in February.
have a look at the websites at lessaisies.com and espacediamant.com
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Seefeld near Innsbruck would be a good choice. Seefeld is a real hot spot for cross country skiing in Tyrol (after all it hosted twice the cross country competition at olympic winter games) and has two decent ski areas as well. It has also quite good access (short train ride from Innsbruck). In addition it is quite snow-sure.
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Seefeld might be a bit limited for the downhillers though?
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sarahwalker, also think about snowshoeing if you like to walk. Probably more options for that than cross country in a lot of alpine resorts.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Seefeld might be a bit limited for the downhillers though? |
It depends on the personal preferences. Not every downhill skier prefers the very large ski areas which happen to be the most crowded and the groomed pistes are often in poor conditions even quite early in the day due to the high amount of skiers. But you are right in so far as the ski areas of Seefeld are not among the largest of Austria.
Another possibility would be the Montafon. You have some very nice cross-country in the Silbertal (a quiet side valley near Schruns) and the high alpine cross country tracks around the Bielerhöhe (2030m) directly in the heart of the Silvretta. Stunning views and a lot of snow is guaranteed there. In winter the Bielerhöhe is reaches via a small cable car from Partenten and then there is a special bus to the Bielerhöhe. There are hotels and restaurants around the Bielerhöhe.
Downhill skiers do have tons of options in the Montafon (including Schruns, Silvretta Nova, Gargellen).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Not every downhill skier prefers the very large ski areas which happen to be the most crowded and the groomed pistes are often in poor conditions even quite early in the day due to the high amount of skiers.
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Absolutely. I don't like those kind of areas at all. But the Espace Diamant is neither just a few runs on a few different hills NOR a very large and crowded area. Outside French hols it's very quiet, but there's plenty of skiing for all except piste bashers wanting a large selection of very difficult pistes. And both the cross-country and downhill areas are easily reached on foot from any of the accommodation in Les Saisies village (though not from other villages in the domain, which are essentially downhill only). I've never been to Seefeld, so probably quite unreasonable of me to criticise it! I just always remember the "pros and cons" list in the Good Ski Guide, which listed "downhill skiing" as one of the things Seefeld was bad for. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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How did I miss this thread?    
I loved the information provided here. Probably the most comprehensive list of downhill + x-c skiing resorts. ami in berlin, I bet you love this too? I'll have to somehow "save" this thread for future reference.
For sarahwalker, I'd say you would find St Moritz a very good candidate. I went there this year (end of March - early April). Had a fantastic time there.
For me, the x-c skiing there was a bit "too easy" for me. But that might be just right for you since you're just starting out. The tracks are on relatively flat terrain around beautiful lakes ringed by majectic mountains. I can't imagine any better setting to x-c ski, nor a better place to learn. 
I saw some people having lessons at Pontrasina, which is where most of the x-c skiing tracks are concentrated. Teaching seems to be of very high standard. Pontrasina also happens to be the less expensive part of the Egadine Valley, with easy bus connection to St Moritz.
For the downhill daredevils, there're 3 seperate areas they can choose from. Plenty of easy to challenging terrain to suit everyone's need.
While St Moritz love their reputation of being "upscale", it's actually no more expensive than France as far as I can tell! There're lodging from budget to expensive. Mostly of quite high standard.
As mentioned by others, Davos is also well known for the same, similar setting of snow-capped mountain ringed lakes. Probably similar in expense too. I've not skied there so don't have personal experience to share.
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I've not been there for years but, when in good condition, the cross country around Villard de Lans in the Vercors is pretty good - extensive runs through the forest to Correncon, the next village; and the downhill area, though small, was pretty pleasant.
I learnt to ski in Chamrousse - less, but still fairly good, cross country area and bigger downhill area. Both areas cater more for locals, so English is less spoken than in the big resorts (or was a decade or so ago) - for some that would be part of the attraction, I suppose.
Out of interest, other French terms are XCSki and ski de fond - if you didn't know that, it may help with searches (if you did, then sorry for stating the obvious)
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You know it makes sense.
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sarahwalker, Whilst touring en route to Realp, I came across Oberwald - which had a lot of cross-country skiers about. Worth checking, I think.
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| Oberwald is well known as the starting point of the Goms cross-country ski run, a network of 100km runs between Oberwald and Niederwald. |
It also has a very decent pub
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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abc, interesting for me indeed.
Another area that we're looking at for next winter is Galtür, which looks to have pretty extensive xc and is just down the valley from Ischgl for dh skiing. The two appear to be linked by a xc trail, as well.
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Poster: A snowHead
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You're all brilliant - thankyou so much. I'm happy we're going to find something to suit us all now and have even persuaded a friend to join me! I'll have to put partner and kids first for their downhill, but looks like there will be good places for me too. Just need to keep the exercise up now so I'm fit enough to have a go!!
Thanks again for some fantastic information.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm suprised its up to me to mention the areas around me....
Ski Amadé in austria.... huge amounts of downhill and huge amounts of x-country.
There are hundreds of K's of loips in the valleys plus trails to take you up, up, up.
So it is possible to stay in the valley - rest of the family can go to a downhill resort and you can meet them up there later!
I live in Radstadt which has an Olympic trail, we just missed out on the 2014 to Russia but all the x-country would have been here and the alpine just up the road.
X-country is free within moast of Amadé but Ramsau does have an amazingly quick little man (on foot) who manages to catch up with everyone and charge €5 per day.
I think Ramsau is one of (if not the) biggest plataux in the Alps and is excellent for the trails but a bit limited for alpine.
Anyhow check out www.skiamade.com for more info!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sarahwalker, what aspect of downhill skiing could you not get on with? Don't get the impression that ski de fond is an easier option because it isn't, unless you shuffle round on of those flat valley tracks which must be deathly boring - a good walk would be infinitely preferable. If you haven't tried them, you might also enjoy snowshoes.
If you decide to have a go at cross-country, apart from taking the wise advice above about having lessons (which will teach you to glide, not shuffle) it would be good to practice plenty of balance exercises beforehand - stand on one leg and turn to look behind you, etc etc. When you get good at it, do it with closed eyes. Balance on XC skis is a lot trickier because you can't lean on your equipment. I started learning to do cross-country skiing about the same time as I started learning snowboarding - and even though I am a fairly competent downhill skier I found the latter a lot easier.
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| ami in berlin wrote: |
abc, interesting for me indeed.
Another area that we're looking at for next winter is Galtür, which looks to have pretty extensive xc and is just down the valley from Ischgl for dh skiing. The two appear to be linked by a xc trail, as well. |
A couple of years ago I did a rest day from alpine skiing and tried cross country . It was on the Galtuer-Ischgl loipe. This is really nice, great landscape especially around Galtuer. Very snow-sure as well.
If it is safe avalanche-wise you probably could go up with a piste-bully to Bielerhöhe in the heart of the Silvretta (it is about 8 km from Galtuer). There are pretty amazing high-alpine cross country tracks there (above 2000m). Stunning mountain views-
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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for someone keen to give xc skiing a go as a fun alternative to alpine skiing would it be advisable to start with classic or skating styles ?
from the initial research I have done it looks like equipment choice depends on the style so which would be recommended ?
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Classic seems to be the norm to start with (especially with social groups).
If you have a decent level of fitness you will probably enjoy skate just as much (it is faster and much more energetic).
Classic is quicker to learn to an acceptable level though!
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Just to reiterate the last point - it depends on your level of fitness and athleticism. If you are very fit and athletic you should try
skating - it is faster and you don't have to worry about waxing etc. - however the first few times you do it, you will only be able to
go a few hundred feet and you will feel dead - classic is certainly easier to shuffle along - to do it well though is tougher than
skating - also you need different equipment for both - hope that answers some of your questions
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| Quote: |
you should try
skating - it is faster and you don't have to worry about waxing etc.
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? is that really the case?
my classic cross country skis - which are Norwegian but bought in France - don't get waxed, they have built in plastic scales underneath, to stop them sliding backwards (ie they slide one way, but not the other). However though I haven't done skating (I saw a very accomplished looking guy having a skating lesson when I was having my classic lesson, and it looked hyper-difficult!) I know that they discuss endlessly which wax to use for which conditions - it wins and loses races, apparently. The local ski shops sell many varieties.
You can hire the gear for either - why not get advice from whichever ski school you proposed to use, locally?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Waxing is last century!
People write essays on the pros and cons of skating vs classic. So I won't bother. Do as pam w suggested, hire a set and try doing it for a day each. You can then decide for yourself.
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Oh dear.
sawni, skate skis do require wax. So do "waxless" classic skis. They both require glide wax (every bit as much - no, actually more so - than your downhill skis require wax). What skate and "waxless" classic skis do not require is kick wax.
But this is a moot point anyway if you are hiring skis for the day, as the shop will have waxed them for you.
abc is sensible in suggesting trying both. If I were only trying one, I'd try classic first as it is easier to begin (but NOT easy to master!).
As for equipment, the skis are different. So are the boots, but I guess there are also "combi" boots on the market. I've heard bad things about them, but haven't tried them myself. Even just among classic skis, some boots fit to some binding systems and not others as there are differing standards. But again, you don't have to worry about this if you are just hiring skis to have a try.
Although classic looks easy, if you want to be able to do more than shuffle along (which gets tiresome and boring), I would suggest getting a lesson. It is a lot more fun with proper technique.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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thanks for all the advice (i'm going to go and try find some of those skating vs classic essays). but leaving aside the relative difficulty aspect out of it ... checking out what available in the Gastein valley for example:
http://www.gastein.com/en-service-loipenbericht.htm
it splits the various xc ski areas between skating, classic or classic&skating. so does this mean that if for example I arrive at the Sportgasteinloipe which is classified as 'skating' then I will not actually be able to use my classic xc ski's (and vice versa for other areas) ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Not familiar with the particular area. But,
As a rule, if a trail is desingated as "skating" (aka, without the classic track set), chances are it's rather less than pleasent to be doing classic skiing on it.
The reverse is even more true. Skating on a trail that has ONLY classic tracks set will trash the tracks. You'll be upsetting a large mob of classic skiers.
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I've never come across skating only tracks before. Most tracks I've come across have had the flat area in the middle for skating and then a pair of groves (one each way) for classic. Although there were some narrower spots that only have enough width for classic. I'd say try both too but I've not got round to trying skating yet 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I would suggest getting a lesson. It is a lot more fun with proper technique.
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I would too. I've had two weeks of lessons and am still rubbish. More advanced groups were doing all sorts of stuff with only one ski on, but we were allowed to keep both. We also did some "off piste" which was a good laugh and ended up buried. There's a drag lift in Les Saisies that you can use on cross country skis to gain some height - to save too much slogging. the instructor told us to be sure not to fall off before the point - about two-thirds of the way up the lift - where you can herringbone over to the nordic tracks because we'd find it extremely difficult to cope with the blue run back down to the bottom. We were all so scared of having to try that we held on tight.
NOT all classic skis need wax. Mine (Madshus) are wax-free and I was specifically told by the shop where I bought them that they don't get waxed. Just to be sure, I checked with the ski instructor. No wax.
All the tracks in Les Saisies are both classic and skating (though the classic "rails" disappear on the downhill bits where you need to snowplough or do step turns).
You can get along quite quickly on classic skis once you've mastered the various gliding steps (in conjunction with poling). I never got much good at it, but it was very enjoyable. I just was absolutely hopeless at the snowploughing - really, really, rubbish. I guess alpine skis and boots have just made me lazy - you can just lean on your equipment and stop on a sixpence.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Speedster, as luck would have it, I was in Bad Gastein a year ago.
Almost all of the trails are groomed for both skating and classic. There will be two set of tracks for classic (ski on the right, pass on the left) and then a flat groomed path next to that for skating. On the uphills the classic tracks might stop as you will need to fish bone anyway. The exceptions to this are minor and generally in the direction of being set for classic and not skating rather than vice versa.
As for Bad Gastein in particular, the main cross country area is in Bockstein, which is a small village away from the downhill skiing. It's very quaint, and it's nice to be someplace where the focus is actually on cross country rather than it being just an after thought to the alpine slopes. If you are only going to xc ski for a day, do it here. There are a couple xc ski schools and hire shops in the village as well.
Sportgastein has more than 2km and is prepared for both classic and skating, so the information on the website is inaccurate. It is also higher altitude, and you WILL feel the difference. Unless you're in much better shape than me, after a couple hours you'll be spent.
The Himmelwaldloipe is a single path (not a loop) that heads up through a forrest. I didn't ski it, but my girlfriend reported that it was quite narrow (that's why there's no skating track) as it is a hiking trail in the summer. It's more scenic and slower than the other trails.
The Angertal trails are also nice and head off into the woods, but at some points require crossing the downhill runs. They are also the most crowded, as they are next to the alpine center. The plus side is that a mixed group of cross country and downhill skiers can easily meet for lunch (and there is a fantastic hut where the cross country trails cross the downhill slope).
The remaining trails on that list are more theoretical than realistic. They are lower altitude, not connected, and therefore often not prepared or even not snow covered.
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, I would very much be interested to know what model that is, because as far as I am aware, if you care about looking after your equipment, all cross country skis DO in fact need wax for the same reason your downhill skis need wax. There are a great many people who downhill ski and never wax their skis. They are still able to ski, but that does not make it good for your skis or good for your performance.
"Waxless" skis do not need kick wax, but if you go to a shop with a knowledgeable nordic staff (not always a given), they should tell you that you still need glide wax. Furthermore, there are base waxes and different waxes for different temperatures and moisture content of the snow. Just like for downhill skis.
Try putting some glide wax on your skis sometime (but NOT in the grooves or on the fishscale pattern). You'll notice the difference.
The term "waxless" that has been given to these skis is an example of really irresponsible marketing. It would be more accurate to call them "patterned" or "textured" skis. Waxless they are not.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
It then dawn on me that I had just "discovered" why I wasn't doing well on alpine skis: not having a proper weight transfer between the 2 skis and keeping the ski flat between turns.
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the top juniors in the "club des sports" spend quite a bit of time on X-C skis to make their balance much more finely tuned (so the instructor told us....). We spent a lot of time learning how to glide - "C'est un sport de glisse" Ne marchez pas!!" the instructor kept yelling at us. We had to do exercises on one foot, but had the other ski on - the intermediate group was doing long glides with just one ski on. Surprisingly tricky. You do see a lot of people just shuffling around, who obviously have never had any lessons - it looks a singularly pointless activity, much better to get a pair of raquettes.
ami in berlin, our skis are made by Madshus. I haven't the slightest idea about the whole subject, but am going on what we were told by local experts (including the guy who sold us the skis, who makes a lot of money selling waxes).
There's a bit here about the need to avoid putting any wax on waxless skis http://www.xcskiworld.com/equip/Waxing/waxing_kick.htm
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The tip and tail of classic skis should be glide waxed at least once a year. You get a lot more glides out of them.
For skating skis, the glide wax goes on the entire ski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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pam w, as peura points out, your link actually mentioned using glide wax.
Here is a website that I think explains waxing your waxless skis pretty well: http://www.xcskiindiana.com/articles/wax1.html
If you don't want to wax your skis, fine. But you will be sacrificing performance and damaging your equipment. The comparison to putting wax on downhill skis is exact. You don't have to do it, but it's a damn good idea.
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ami in berlin, OK, point taken - will ask the guy in the shop! Though last year I didn't use the cross country skis at all. What with downhill, and snowboarding, and snow shoeing, a season is just too short. and I hesitate to do the beginner course yet again! I've done it twice already.
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| Quote: |
As for equipment, the skis are different. So are the boots, but I guess there are also "combi" boots on the market. I've heard bad things about them, but haven't tried them myself. Even just among classic skis, some boots fit to some binding systems and not others as there are differing standards. But again, you don't have to worry about this if you are just hiring skis to have a try.
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Nothing wrong with combi or pursuit boots - all my boots are pursuit boots and unless I was racing seriously (on snow) I wouldn't bother with a pair of classic boots as I prefer the extra ankle support I get from my pursuit boots. I also don't have any skate specific boots and I don't have any problems skating with pursuit boots.
I've skated on waxless classic skis before - though its not ideal - used mainly 'cos they are my rock skis and I didn't want to get my skate skis out as conditions weren't great. I find skating (on skinny skis) on snow damn hard work - yet I can easily skate on rollers for 20km in under and hour. Presumably my technique on snow is poor - the conditions here in Scotland aren't often good enough for skating, much easier to classic in poor snow or on unpisted trials. To start with I'd say stick with classic as it is much easier to get going wheras skating is hard work. Skating I'm physically flat out just to keep going whereas if I'm classicing I can ski at anything from little more than walking pace to a fast running pace and keep it up without dying on my feet even at the faster pace.
Some coaching is well worth while (this from the guy whose never had a downhill lesson) as though it is easy get out on snow on the skis and cover the ground it is much more enjoyable if you can get some decent glide from the skis and if you have some idea how to control your speed on downhills and how to get the skis to go around corners.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I prefer the extra ankle support I get from my pursuit boots.
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Dave Horsley, I've sometimes looked at those chunkier sort of boots and wondering how much easier they'd make life - mine are like slippers! Might be worth hiring some to try? What are the downsides?
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val gardena or val di fiemme access to the sella rhonda for alpines skiers and plenty of xc for the nordic types, they can even try the killer climb of the tour de ski final stage
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FAQ
and last year I hung up my skies for good and spent a lovely week walking in the mountains 
