Poster: A snowHead
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So, whats the deal..?
Does the use of snow cannons have an adverse effect on skiing..? Does it have any effect of the quality of the snow at all..?
I see via webcams that they have just started using them in Les Menuires, this does nothing to ease my worries that there will not be good snow at new year...
Thoughts..?
Mac
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It seems a bit of a waste to be using them at this time of year. In peak season, if the cover is a bit sketchy, then maybe they're justified.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Using them to build up a decent base
Helps things survive if there are warm spells and keeps a cover on bits of runs exposed to wind etc
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Quote: |
It seems a bit of a waste to be using them at this time of year. In peak season, if the cover is a bit sketchy, then maybe they're justified. |
Not at all. Wait till the cover is sketchy and need to use them, then you'll probably find out that it's too mild to use them anyway. To avoid this scenario snow is made when it can be made to some extent and certainly at the outset of the season with the purpose of making a solid and robust base to see the season through.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I am not sure about this this but I think its like packing a freezer the more stuff you put in the more efficiently it operates. Latent heat or something. At the end of the season you will still have a good base and what with piste bashers pounding it down there will still be snow left to ski on.
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Ski resorts are also able to control the quality/type of snow that snow making machines make. In reality what this means is that they can make powder right the way up practically making hailstones. They tend to favour heavier snow with higher concentrations of water in it. As it has a higher calorific value & takes longer to make melt than lighter snow. It's also easier to move around with piste bashing machines for storing up in colder periods. The flipside to this is that it tends to ice over a lot more easily than the lighter snow.
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Just hold your breath when they are on. Who knows where that water comes from..
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Don't worry Mac22, think of it as making hay while the sun shines.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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With the long sub-zero nights, this is definitely the time of year to make it. It's a losing battle at Easter time!
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Early season when the cover isn't great if it's cold enough using them is a good idea because if it gets warm you are goosed. It also helps any natural snow that falls stick around.
Some resorts take it to extremes just so they can say they were open in November.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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narc,
Which ones would they be ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Mitchell, arapahoe basin and loveland both in colorado opened in mid novemeber, it mihgt have been october I can't remember, after creating a base of almost entirely srtificial snow. But either way they like to race each to produce as much as as possible early so that they can claim to be the first ski resort in north america open. The europeans don't seem to take it to these extremes.
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Oh, I see.
Makes sense! Make hay while the sun shines, make snow while it doesn't... I should write that down
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You know it makes sense.
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Quote: |
Does the use of snow cannons have an adverse effect on skiing..? Does it have any effect of the quality of the snow at all..?
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depends what you're comparing it to. compared to grass (which is what a lot of lower slopes are covered in right now) artificial snow is really pleasant to ski on. Compared to nice stuff which has just fallen naturally out of the sky, it's not so nice - a little scratchy and scrapy sometimes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If it is cold and they have the newer technology equipment, the made snow can be very pleasant to ski on. It's not powder but gives a lovely velvet coating especially if it has been made after the piste has been groomed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I live near Washington DC. Believe it or not, we have about a dozen small ski areas within 3 hours of the city. They have 20 or 30 ski trails and ~300 meter verticals. The summits are about 1000 meters above sea level. I have skied at these areas for over 40 years, almost entirely on man-made snow from snow cannons. The snowmakers here go crazy in the month of December hoping to open as close to 100% of their ski terrain as possible for the Christmas Holidays. That kind of snow is dense and creates a durable surface that skis just like regular snow, albeit with the feel of a hardpacked, heavily skied piste. But...on a dry, cold, windless night the most modern snowmaking guns can create snow with the feel of a chalky dusting of powder over a smoothly groomed surface. The stuff of heroes
It is no exaggeration to say that in our region a fortnight of cold, dry December nights is far more conducive to a good remainder of the ski season than a single natural snowfall of one meter.
2005 article with photo of a snow cannon in action in Virginia, USA: http://www.dcski.com/articles/view_article.php?article_id=794&mode=headlines
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sarge McSarge, but only if "they" want to - right now I'd expect them to have the system switched to "super concrete" - i.e. pretty much solid ice. Lasts longer, etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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under a new name, I didnt think our cannons had any other settings other than super concrete. Or maybe they have a breakable 3" crust setting for the piles they make.
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Jonny luv plums, I skied honegg artificial that definetly felt like fresh pow.
Wether it turns concrete has to do with the effort of the guys on the big noisy machines
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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useless - best regarded as outsize edge-of-piste markers. an '80s joke that isn't funny anymore
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Having just talked to the manager of one of our local ski areas he told me that they never try for "super concrete" as it does not have enough volume. The lightest snow they make still packs to solid base as soon as you run a grooming machine over it even if it has a nice surface feel. But they do have latest tech equipment.
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Sarge McSarge, it may be to do with "new" tech, the system I had been told about dated from ~1988...it also makes a difference what ambient temperature you have to work with. Certainly all the artificial snow I've ever skied on has been pretty solid, and breaks up under a piste machine into blocks of ice, never seen anything "nicer" produced.
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for those who really want to know there is snowguns.com - the forum for people who like snow cannons - and building their own...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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under a new name, The new systems are a major improvement on the early ones. Each machine has temperature and humidity sensors that link back to the control computers and can be programmed to change the air/water mix as the conditions change. Also each one can be individually adjusted depending on its location, wind exposure etc. They can also control the direction so you can cover a narrow piste or let it drift to cover a wider area. I am talking of a system built in the last two or three years.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I had to laugh when i went to whistler a couple of weeks back and they had the snow guns blazing even although they had 5.5m of the real stuff fall already that month! talk about p*ssing in the ocean!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sarge McSarge, hmm, the one I'm discussing had broadly similar control - and was fully automated unless something went quite wrong - possibly with less local (or individual) measurement. But I'm sure they've got better in 20 years. Or are they like hifi which have (apparently) not?
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pam w wrote: |
Quote: |
Does the use of snow cannons have an adverse effect on skiing..? Does it have any effect of the quality of the snow at all..?
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depends what you're comparing it to. compared to grass (which is what a lot of lower slopes are covered in right now) artificial snow is really pleasant to ski on. Compared to nice stuff which has just fallen naturally out of the sky, it's not so nice - a little scratchy and scrapy sometimes. |
Just got back from Italy whilst skiing I really noticed the difference when hitting the pretend snow. Whilst picking a route down the piste I noticed a nice smooth area near a snow cannon. Mental note to self avoid in future as I am now sporting a rather black/blue coloured bottom!
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You know it makes sense.
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how long before the environmentalists have their say and get the use of snow cannons restricted or banned ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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How much does it cost to run them?
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Poster: A snowHead
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youspurs1 wrote: |
How much does it cost to run them? |
In simple terms - LOTS. Often it's not the physical cost of running them but the capital cost of installation & the side effects that are the big cost. For a resort to put in a network of snow canons first thing they have to do is build a reservoir. AFAIK in france it's illegal for them to use municpal water supplies for artificial snow making. Then you have the cost of the canons themselves which are not cheap. Finally you have to install a pressurised, insulated, protected pipework network supplying them. When you think in a big resort you're probably talking tens of kilometres to runs with snow making it becomes pretty significant very quickly.
A quick google led me to this google books scan http://tinyurl.com/yd8u6rd Which gives capital costs of €650,000 per km in switerzerland & annual running costs of about €30,000 per km. In the report it's not clear whether this is per square km or just km of piste.
Another factor about artificial snow making that's often ignored is the environmental impact. In a lot of places they mix in an ensyme (sp?) with the water to aid the crystallisation into snow. I believe there are issues in France with this because it means the ski areas no longer become viable watersheds for lower areas after this is done. That's not even including the electrical costs of running the infrastructure.
I'm surprised Davidof hasn't added to this thread as there have been a number of articles about it on his website in recent years. No doubt he probably knows more about it than most of us put together. Interesting article from it here http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0784-artificial-snow-a-short-term-fix/ & another here http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Articles/Snow-Canons
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 11-12-09 11:46; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nearly all European Ski Resorts would not exist without them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Expensive to install, expensive to run.
Our local bump draws water from a natural lake into the reservoir. We have a temporary dispensation to take the water, pending environmental investigations between each season. Luckily the lake has undergound seepage, and fills itself up nicely during the off season. If that weren't true we'd be forced to pay for water from the municipal supply which would be very expensive and very stupid - why use money and energy cleansing water just so we can spray it all over a hill?
So there's a pump in the lake to fill the reservoir.
There's a booster pump in the reservoir to get water to the main pump house.
The pump house obviously houses the main pump providing water under pressure to the snow guns via the pipe network. It also houses the compressor (a Kaeser DS201 screw compressor - a wonderful beast that draws a whole sh*tload of electricity). It broke this week, so we were making snow on the old reserve compressor - hopefully its fixed now, because the temperature is due to drop well below freezing again over the weekend!
You've got the pump running, driven by an industrial strength motor, the big compressor, and the floodlighting on so the snow guys can monitor the snow production through the long night (3pm - 9am).
Modern fan driven snow guns: approx £20000 each? A simple tower with nozzles can be had for maybe £1500 but they're nowhere near as efficient. The fan guns need their own electrical supply. For effective snow making you need to get some fan guns mounted above ground, preferably with a pedestal motor to sweep them around - saves on the piste bashing afterwards. Otherwise you make piles of snow several metres high and spread them later.
No idea what the pipework costs to buy and install, although we've just had that re-done too - and two pipe sections slid apart underground! Bloody teething troubles.
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This article conveys in layman's terms the remarkable effect good manmade snowmaking can have on a typical ski experience in the marginal winter climate zone of Virginia:
http://www.dcski.com/articles/view_article.php?article_id=887
An unconfirmed cost figure I heard was $4000 per night at this particular small ski area. That does not include the large initial outlay of millions for installation.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In my experience skiing on artificial snow in Europe is usually poor. Its normally hard packed and icy and therefore unpleasent and unforgiving particular for telemark skiing where you need a soft flex.
A mixture of artifical and real snow is better and melting artifical snow is perhaps the most forgiving of all artifical surfaces but I'm not a fan. Several years ago in Tignes it was a relief to get onto the Grattalu piste which was thin but at least had 100% real snow. It was just so much more fun to ski than the artifical snow.
Resorts have to make snow to guarntee early season conditions but also to cope with high piste wear caused by highe capacity lifts. If you want good snow I normally find its best to stay on the quieter runs.
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Coronet Peak, New Zealand up graded from about fifty to more than two hundred snow guns a couple of years ago. Total cost NZ$15 million (7.5 million euro) this included new reservoirs, pumps, pipes etc. So not a cheap exercise. Cost of electricity to run this system is unknown to me but must be huge.
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Sarge McSarge wrote: |
Cost of electricity to run this system is unknown to me but must be huge. |
It is. But obviously worth it. Their skier days were way up this year, I guess mainly due to almost guaranteed snow, and being the only place in Australasia that can offer that.
Have to say I was pretty sceptical about the quality of man made snow until I rode Coronet. The quality and coverage of what they can knock out in a few days blew me away.
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Top and bottom of it is, as a skier, Snow >>> Grass
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