Skiing - an astonishingly white activity

A snowHead

Skiing in Big Sky, Montana, last week, I failed to spot anyone in the resort who was obviously non-white except, as is often the case, the resort employees. Given that only 75% of the USA's population is white, this seems a little strange.

Working from memory, I seem to recall a similar pattern in the Alps. Why should skiing appeal so unequally to different ethnic groups?

A snowHead

Jonny Jones, I was there 3 weeks ago, and there were two non-whites in my group, but I think that was all in the resort.

What were the conditions like?
Where did you stay?

Here's my photos...
http://skiing.wtfh.com/Epic/ESA3.html

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Maybe black people realise that the activity has no cultural depth.

Much black culture - and sport - has its roots in Africa (not much skiing there) while we whites descend from those humans who migrated to northern Europe and found themselves chasing reindeer around the place (for reasons best known to themselves).

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Wear The Fox Hat, great photos. As you can imagine, I was an avid reader of your ESA reports over on Epic Ski.

Conditions in Big Sky were awesome. We had 3ft of snow within 48 hours of arriving, and then the sun came out until we left. Liberty bowl had knee-deep powder (this is not an exaggeration), and you could find untracked powder on quiet pistes for days after the snowfall. And the only queue I saw all week was for the tram on the morning of the big dump. It was, by some margin, the best week's skiing that I've ever had. We stayed in the Huntley, and I can't speak highly enough of the resort.

[Sorry for the digression to everyone else]

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Jonny Jones, did you go over to Mineral Basin (or even just to the Mineral Lodge for lunch)?
Any photos?

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David Goldsmith, there's not a lot of skiing in Wales - most winters I see no snow at all where I live. But I and many of my friends join an alien Alpine culture to hurl ourselves down mountains like guided missiles.

You're right about the lack of cultural depth in skiing, though. Sliding down slopes is a fantistically childish thing to do. snowHead

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This black and white business may be difficult to spot in skiing as with hat, goggle, scarf, Gortex overall and the rest of the winter protection gear it is diffcult to tell the colour of the skier, unless he/she has a very dark skin.

Also people from the African ethnic origin like hot weather more and shiver easily in cold temperatures. There may be a genetic connection too as a late friend who used to work in hospital told me the African's ear is among the most sensitive. People live in hot climate is unlikely to have good insulation in their skin layer and would not be able to withstand the coldness as easy as the European. Competitive swimming is another sport seldom popular with the African.

I am from South East Asia origin and technically classified as black according to the UK definition (all non white is black!). Thus a good portion of the 25% black American population may not be pitch black too.

The cold environment can do something to the body as well. I can confirm that every South East Asian student I know put on about 10lb weight and stop there within the first month arriving UK.

People wishing to see black people should go to Whistler Blackcomb as there is a signifcant portion of the skiers are South East Asians. That part of the N AMerica is also popular with the Japanese.

Iranians will be classified as black too and my couple of visits there the white skiers there could be as scarce as the black folks reported in Big Sky of Montana.

For white only environment Scandinavia is the place to go.

After all it is free

Not sure that this applies to Europe, but for North America it's a generalism that the more "destination" resorts don't yet seem to be appealing to the non-white population much, but the more urban ones are starting to realise that that's where the growth is. Proof.... in the last 7 years annual skier numbers at Mountain High (about 90 minutes from downtown LA) have increased from 182,000 to 500,000. And 40 percent of those are now Asian and African American. You'd also notice a big divide in that the proportion of them who are choosing to snowboard, rather than to ski is a lot higher - it's now about 80% snowboarding there which is probably a reflection of the cultural crossover from skateboards, etc.

Jonny Jones, point noted myself re: European Alps when I first came from NZ circa 2000.

David Goldsmith, your argument works for Africans living in Africa. But considering the enormous uptake amongst non-whites of sports created by white western culture (e.g. football aka soccer in Europe, basketball and gridiron in North America, and rugby in the Antipodes), it doesn't necesssarily ring true for western-nationals of African-descent (is that clunky description even making sence?)

I suspect it has more to do with the historical economic and social accessablity of the sport in question. Colonialism accounts to a large extent for economic differences between ethnicities within the same western nation. And, if you don't have the money to easily engage in a sport, then you're less likely to participate in it. Unlike skiing, football/basketball/rugby require nothing other than a cheap ball, a net/goalpost of some description, a bit of flattish ground near where you live, and some competitive neighbours. All of which goes some way to explaining the massive participation by non-white folk in those sports, and possibly their lack of participation in expensive sports like skiing. However as the position of non-white ethnicities within western nations improves I would hope to see more and more non-whites on the slopes. Interestingly the majority of non-white people I've met/overheard on French slopes are British, rather than French (something to do with differences between the countries in terms of social integration policies? Or more to do with the strength of the £ c.f Euro. Who knows).

I'm an ex-pat NZer. Native NZers are considered by some historical commentators have fared "less worse" under colonialisation than have many other colonised peoples (debatable, don't even get me started...), but I would say there is a goodly number of non-white faces on NZ's slopes compared to Europe. Draw your own conclusions. Having said that, the majority prefer rugby anyway.... wink

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saikee, the Oriental influence at Whistler is probably a reflection not only that's it's a popular destination with the Japanese, but that with Vancouver being a major Pacific port, the whole of that part of BC has a large number of Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Filipino/etc community. People of a South Asian ethnicity account for about 30% of the population "Vancouver, whereas it's only about 1% black.

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Sorry, got carried away there. Embarassed

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Okanagan, just an observation, but both Japan and S. Korea have burgeoning ski resorts (a lot of NZers learning Japanese at university bvgger off during holidays to Japanese skifeilds for a bit of money and language practice). Skiing's certainly popular amongst Japanese and Korean nationals in their home country, and is becoming more so as their "middle-class" populations expand. I'd expect to see the same thing happening in China from now on too.

However are the ethnic populations that migrated generations ago to western nations (particularly North America) now just as likely engage in snowsports at the same rate as those people who remained in their country of ethnic origin? Good question.

Actually skiing in China is already booming - there are an incredible number of small urban ski areas around Beijing now.

You know it makes sense.

Okanagan,

Politically speaking black means non white and so Vancourver has 30% black population instead of 1%.

Many people, me included originally, thought black population refers to people black in skin but this is no longer the case according to the official definition adopted by government. I am speaking as an ex-vice chairman for a local Chinese community.

In Vancourver there are districts dominated by the South Asians who can survive there without speaking one word of English.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Manda, you might be right that the issue has economic roots. For the reasons saikee sets out (balaclavas and the like), I based my observations on hotel guests and restaurant patrons, probably seeing the most affluent layer of an already affluent population. And I was looking out for Asians, Arabs and Hispanics as well as Afro-Caribbeans.

Skiing seems to be infectious, as it's best enjoyed in a crowd; if your mates aren't rich enough to ski, it's likely that you won't ski either. Maybe many non-white communities don't have a critical mass of affluent people. It's interesting that day-trip skiing, apparently attractive to LA's blacks and Vancouver's Asians, is a much cheaper activity than a skiing holiday.

A snowHead

Jonny Jones, sorry, I forgot about Nando and his wife - both of Brazilian origin, who were also on the trip.

A snowHead

Jonny Jones, I've been in the Middle East for a long time and I cannot recall a single Gulf Arab who has skied or boarded. Water skiing yes - snow no. Different in the Lebanon - you'd certainly find Arabic speakers enjoying the slopes there. And on my trips to France, I must agree there are very few on the slopes with anything other than pale northern European complexions. No idea why, though.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

saikee, In Canadian demographics black generally means black, and the term "visible minority" is used to mean "non-white". You're more likely to see "Asian" meaning everything from Arab to Chinese as a general grouping.

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kuwait_ian - Iran has some long established ski areas, and Dubai is getting a snowdome!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Okanagan, I know - I lived in Tehran for nearly 4 years and skied there often. But they are not Arabs. Iranian / Persian. They even object to it being called the Arabian Gulf wink

. We've had a bit on here about the Dubai snowdome. Try the search engine in user facilities in top left. Scheduled to open in Sept 2005. Will be quite something - that might get a few dishdashes onto the slopes. Cool

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In the U.S. I'd say there are geographical, economic, and cultural barriers that have limited minority participation in skiing. To a large extent, the ski resorts are not located in areas with large minority populations. The Rocky mountain states and New England have relatively small numbers of racial and ethnic minorities. I think you see more ethnic minorities at resorts more proximate to urban areas. Skiing is not inexpensive and unfortunately many minority groups are still at an economic disadvantage. Third, there's little or no history of skiing in the culture of many ethnic minorities -- I'm thinking specifically of African-Americans and Hispanics. African-Americans were concentrated in the South until the great migration to urban areas during the 40s & 50s. Hispanics were concentrated in the South West (primarily Mexican) Florida (Cuban), or North Eastern cities (Puerto Rican). How many great ski racers have been Hispanic or African? If no one in your family skis, and your friends don't ski, and you don't live near skiing, you're not like to pick up the sport. I do think the trend is changing somewhat, but slowly. I see more and more African-Americans at the New England resorts I visit. And I certainly see many folks of Asian origin (indeed, in proportion to their numbers in the population I think they may be over-represented. But by and large, it's a pretty white sport.

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So how about swimming? Competitive swimming also seems to be an astonishingly white activity. At least there are very few blacks evident (based on Okanagan's definition, not saikee's). Considering their domination of track events surely they would be equally successful at swimming? Is that economics (too expensive to build pools/not enough money in competitive swimming), geography (not much water in or around Africa wink

), culture (no-one in the family swims) or history (no-one has ever swum)? Maybe thinking about this would help explain skiing.

After all it is free

Surely the reason that skiing has so few non-white participants is because apart from those who live close to the mountains (who tend to be caucasian, both in Europe, and North America) skiing is a middle class hobby/sport. Most minorities tend to be lower down the socioeconomic scale (again in both countries), or if they aren't, have trouble in being accepted by the establishment, so don't get the opportunity to be introduced to skiing.

They might think it is just too damn cold...!!

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Kramer, that's what I thought, and particularly marked with respect to British skiers, given the historical aspect, plus the travel costs. In the mountains themselves in France skiing is a sport for all, however the ethnic minorities tend to be concentrated in and around the main industrial centres and are not present in great numbers in the likes of the Savoie.

I was thinking about this before the thread started, having attended two races in recent weeks - the "British Schoolgirls" in Flaine, and a French college regional championship in Les Arcs. The "British Schoolgirls" were hardly representative of the typical British pupil - Aiglon College in Switzerland, Lady Eleanor Holles, Wycombe Abbey, Sherborne, Queenswood, Heathfield, etc... The French equivalent was just a bunch of ordinary kids.

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PG,

A French friend of mine was taught to ski as part of his schooling. Although he's from Brittany, his whole class was taken to Alps for several weeks. Being skint country folk, they skied in pretty primitive conditions with no special clothing.

He's now in his early 40s. Do French schools still have the 'everyone must learn to ski' attitude? If so, it would explain the French attitude of skiing being a sport for all. But it wouldn't explain the low take-up amongst ethnic minority groups living in France.

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Jonny Jones, you still see plenty of ethnic minority kids in the "classes de neige" school trip groups from all over France, as well as the subsidised trips for older kids, usually teenagers (15-18 yr olds) from "underprivileged" areas.

You see more people of North African extraction in the southern Alps (proximity to Marseilles) than in the likes of the Savoie.

I suppose that schooling over, personal finances become a factor and on the whole the ethnic minorities still lag some way behind in terms of average income. Plus there's a cultural element in terms of sports practiced, as someone mentioned earlier.

From the a few years owning a mobile home in Chamonix I believe some if not all French schools conduct their PE lessons on the skiing slopes. Children are taught to ski as soon as they start school.

You know it makes sense.

saikee, the "classes de neige" for schools away from the mountains are for one week a year. There is a cost, but it is income-related, the subsidy varying according to the family's means, to ensure all can attend.

In the mountains themselves, the primary schools for example here in Bourg St Maurice have a fortnight of half-days during term time on the slopes - no cost - paid for by the local authority. They don't do the "classe de neige", they do something like a "classe de mer", a week at the seaside each year instead. There are also subsidised weekend lessons - the cost is income-related again - organised by the local authority.

At secondary level local schools have varying amounts of skiing included in the sports curriculum during the winter season, depending on the main sports practiced by the pupils concerned.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

As a 'black' skier (n.b. not boarder wink

) I have to agree with Kramer. The major reason for so few being on the Northern Alps must be socio-economic. The reason I ski was that I was encouraged (read bullied) into it by friends of mine from Boarding School/Army/Hockey/University. Neither of my parents ski, though one of my brothers boards.

Not many first or second generations immigrants from non-skiing nations are very interested in snowsports, but as their children are going on to become British educated lawyers, accountants, doctors etc... and are involved in other middle class activities (with a lot of both their white and non-white friends) we shall see more of them on the slopes.

Ethnic diversity will undoubtedly come to skiing, but there will be a lag-time as with sports such as equestrian events and sailing.

IMHO significant cultural diversity is highly unlikely to ever come to skiing (or at least those from our shores) due to the cost, and I suspect you will see the same ABC1s on the slopes whatever the colour of their skin.

A snowHead

arcticfox, even among my non-white friends who are doctors, including the second generation British born ones there is a reluctance to come skiing (I am one of the bullies!). It must be quite intimidating in a resort as well, because the few times that I have seen a non-white skier on the slopes, I've also seen people staring at them.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I can't claim I've ever noticed anyone staring at me on the slopes (or if so I've usually attributed it the concurrent yard sale)!

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When in Whistler in JAnuary, the Brotherhood had an organised week in town, and it was great to see so many of them skiing, and enjoying the mountains. Must say the majority were experienced skiiers, so they must all be skiing somewhere (other than on that one destination trip i mean). It was great to see, the groups was in the thousands i believe.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Whistler is the only resort that I've seen any sort of ethnic diversity at. Although there were quite a few Japanese tourists in Zermatt.

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Hi snowheads, I came to this thread late. I'm black and have been skiing since the age of 12 (now 32). However my introduction came through boarding school so I guess the socio-economic argument is the most convincing.

I have to say that Saikee's Pseudo-scientific claptrap is at best pig ignorant and at worst offensive! e.g:
i. "People from the African ethnic origin like hot weather more and shiver easily in cold temperatures." Well, surely a good wicking layer, fleece and gore-tex shell fixes that problem.

ii. "The African's ear is among the most sensitive". I usually get round this one with a Berhaus Windstopper that covers my ears.

rolling eyes

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Like Tuck I have come to this late. I completely agree with the comments on Saikee's contribution. The answer to this one is much simpler. I'm white but I suspect the answer to why you don't see that many black people skiing (although they are not that rare and include my wife who is Bengali) is not that different to why I never discovered skiing until the age of 33. No-one in my family or social circle skied so there was never any prompt to go. I'd say that is, statistically, likely to be the case with many black families and communities. Of course, it changes over time and over generations and we are seeing many more black skiers and boarders in the Alps. We should not rule out specific race factors, though - for example, if something is seen to be a 'white thing' then it puts the onus on other trigger factors for black people to participate. Also, my family is going to Austria for the first time in March and my wife was not at all sure when we first discussed it give the far-right's racist influence there. It's not going to put us off and it is a very specific point. I don't think it is central to the main point of this thread but nonetheless it indicates how factors can come into play, especially if someone has already got no reason to think 'skiing is for me'.

After all it is free

Tuck Thong, himself originating from the steamy climes of the Far East, perhaps Saikee finds it a bit chilly on the slopes! I'm sure no offence was intended.

Stan,

I'm sure that you and your wife will find that the Austrians are a famously hospitable people, as I have. I'm also sure that you will both be treated with the utmost respect. The vast majority of people that you encounter (like in any other international tourist destination) will no doubt bend over backward to show you both a good time.

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saikee, I'm old enough (you don't have to be that old, in fact) to remember when the average British football fan (and manager and player) thought that black people would never cut it in the upper echelons of UK football because they didn't like the UK weather. That was crap too.

Help!!

Skiing - an astonishingly white activity

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