Poster: A snowHead
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crosbie, Plenty of evidence that in SUV vs small car injuries - the small car comes off much much worse - some of which is about the simple Newtonian mechanics of energy transfer between bodies of unequal mass and size. But have you got any evidence that helmet wearers are more likely to inflict harm on others in an accident, or even that they ski faster and more dangerously than non-helmet wearers?
Nope - I thought not. Just more dogmatic tosh
You could also easily argue that given that being head-butted by someone is pretty painful, that being hit by a smooth rounded helmet with a lining which absorbs some of the dynamic energy of the skiers involved might actually mitigate the impact.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'd venture that some (maybe 99%) helmet wearers care enuf about their own welfare that they try to avoid hurting themselves. This is my approach and no I don't ski faster 'cos I wear a helmet.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoatsbrother, I thought we'd effectively agreed that any conversation about helmets had to be purely a matter of conjecture, and thus evidence-free?
You can't invalidate my conjecture simply by saying it lacks evidence. I never claimed it was supported by evidence in the first place.
All we do is pile in with our conjecture, hunch and hypothesis as much as we might pile in with our views as to which ski resort is best.
One person's well considered opinion is another's dogmatic tosh. This is obvious, so we don't need to state it do we?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just make it compulsory like wearing a motor cycle helmet and it's job done. This thread would be dead within a few weeks unlike those who would have died because they refuse to wear one. Only a few idiots like those who won't seat belts would be left to deal with by fines and bans etc. Sorted.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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crosbie, don't think we had agreed any such thing
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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gravystuffing, Maybe have segregated pistes / bars / hotels. Hey, even whole mountains or regions. "You're entering a helmet free area" etc. A helmet-wearers forum.
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I don't see any downside to wearing one. I don't even notice mine, and it keeps my head exactly as warm as a hat.
This tosh about crashing into someone else not wearing a helmet is never going to stand up - the human skull is as hard as any helmet, if not more so.
I just can't see why you wouldn't wear one. The cost isn't even a factor, at most a helmet would cost the same as one day's skiing. £100 if you shop around and buy new.
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Monium, got 2 Giro ones for £50 in a sale in the US last year - that's one sprog taken care of for a few years.
Bode Swiller, I like it - entire resorts full of French gigolos smoking gauloises and wearing mirror shades and no hat in -20 conditions.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoatsbrother, ok. But, did we 'effectively' agree? You seem to be saying there is no evidence either way yet ('inconclusive'), and I'm happy to agree with that.
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Crosbie, you need to look at the crash impact test results, Of the top 5 cars for pedestrian safety, 3 are so called SUV's. High flat fronted vehicles are safer for pedestrians than low angular ones that slam heads into the windscreen. Plus the government accident statistics show that real 4x4's are involved in less crashes (better road view and slower vehicle).
Bad driving is the preserve of the driver, not the car they are in
2CV drivers need to be doubly worried about pedestrians as they are likely to come right through the car, (As will leaves and a good rain storm!!!!), hats if the 2CV hasnt already burst into flames (Which they have a habit of doing)
12 years as a paramedic taught me cyclist were far better off wearing helmets, a kerb even at low speed is deadly to a skull. I had one fatac where a cyclist had stopped at lights and fell sideways onto their friends peddle. 0 mph but dead. A helmet would have prevented this. Could see a sideways fall onto someones bindings or boot buckle doing the same. And how many of us can honestly say they have never done a prat fall at some time?
Oh and Crosbie, Ashford, Kent or Surrey?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Monium,
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the human skull is as hard as any helmet
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I'm afraid it's not the hardness off the skull it's the tearing of the tissue inside that would be the biggest problem I'm afraid. Boxers don't die of broken skulls but damaged brains.
Make it compulsory. End of discussion. Thanks for listening.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Bode Swiller,
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When I used to teach skiing, you could spot the horse riders a mile off. They were indeed mostly fit but made crap skiers; all stiff and they simply couldn't flow with it. Generally a "good" riding posture is a poor skiing posture.
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Oh heck! I think that could be me!!!!!!!!
I wear a helmet and actually find it more comfortable than a hat with steamed up goggles. Skull surgery is a bit extreme to end a thread.
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Bode Swiller, I didn't mean to sound like a pompous, sel-important prick, but I think I managed pretty well! I was only trying to defend riders - we don't all automatically make bad skiers.
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You know it makes sense.
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I really don't care if someone wears helmet or not. It goes same way as seat belts in car... it's really not my problem if somene use it or not, and I'm not going to convince anyone to use it. But personally I do use it. I never go for mtb ride without helmet (going around city with bike doesn't count... yes I know statistically there's probably more chance to get hurt during normal slow city ride, then when racing up and down the hills on mtb), and there's very rarely I manage to get more then 80km/h. But on skiing, where I'm most of time over 90km/h, I'm suppose to be doing it only with thin cap? No thank you. And no, snow is not really soft and fluffy... especially not when you hit it at high speed. I'm not saying helmet makes you 100% secure, but it does improve your chances... and even 1% more is better then nothing. At least for me, but as I wrote before, I really don't care about someone else, when it comes to this question
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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madmole, I was just throwing in comparators for consideration, not necessarily advocating them as irrefutable evidence either way.
If a helmet increases the chance of collision through an increased sense of invulnerability then it's a choice of:
SOFT HAT) 2 collisions per career: 1 non-fatal (with/without helmet), 1 fatal (small chance helmet might have prevented)
HARD HAT) 10 collisions per career: 5 non-fatal (with/without helmet), 2 fatal (helmet wouldn't have helped), 3 mortal (helmet averted death)
So, it COULD BE that although a helmet appears to prevent death in 30% of collisions, it actually increases collisions 5 fold, and doubles the chance of a fatal collision.
I'm just giving a hypothetical example here to demonstrate that it's not clear cut.
PS I'm in Smarden, Kent and used to live in Lewes. I have worked in Surrey. I will disambiguate my location - thanks for alerting me to it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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crosbie, I think you are flogging a dead horse, give it a rest
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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riverman, someone's got to flog it because people keep on resurrecting it. It's not just a dead horse, it's a zombie horse!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Never fails to amaze me the extent of discussions on this perennial, what next, seatbelts in cars??
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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crosbie, there is evidence - and I have read the original reports of some of the trials - and that is what I was summarising in my big post. But it seems to have passed you by...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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martski, leashes on snowboards, chairlifts without bars, precipitous pistes with/without safety netting, clacking poles or not when overtaking, alcohol limits on piste, 4x4s with/without chains, it's a pretty long list...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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crosbie, The Bell used to be a great pub. Is it still there?
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In simplistic terms - you are a total plonker if you don't wear one. You only have one brain, so you might as well look after it. And this comes from a Motorcyclist,Mountain Biker and Free ride skier. End of - can we move on, we have been here before and it is so boring. Forget the fashion issues - it is all about damage limitation.
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sometimes
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoatsbrother, sorry yes, I did miss you citing evidence that wearing a helmet reduced the likelihood of head injuries. You seemed to be saying there wasn't any such evidence. Of course, when head collisions do occur a helmet will reduce the severity of the injury, however, that's not in dispute.
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stoatsbrother, The Smarden Bell is my regular (very nice). Have to moderate my visits now in preparation for snowboarding...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stoatsbrother, by 'pyromaniacs' are you referring to the firework factory tragedy?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Crosbie, I think it extremely unlikely that helmet wearers are 500% more risk taking. All the data I've seen says that there is no difference in number of accidents between helmet and non helmet wearers for skiing (and for cyclists and motorcyclists)
Real figure will be less than 5% extra risk or it would show in the surveys done already, so that would even in your case of 30% reduction by helmet go to 25% safer for a helmet wearer. Thats a pretty big reduction in risk of head injury.
In the real skiing world head injuries are rare and a 25% reduction in those would be lost in the statistical noise, so it will never really be possible to show how well they work.
For me, I find a helmet has lots of other benifits and the lessening of risk is a bonus. It seems an easy step to take, the only negative is it looks daft, but thats true for me with or without a helmet so thats why I choose to wear one.
Having said that I think they are a positive I will fight to NOT make them mandatory for cycling or skiing. You should be free to decide for yourself
Motorcycling is diifferent, those helmets do offer much greater levels of protection at higher impacts and do make a difference (UK ststistics show they do, US ones are not so conclusive, but they allow much smaller and thinner helmets). BUT they are just too heavy and hot for skiing. I think downhill mountain bike full face helmets are probably the best compromise if pure protection is what you want
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madmole, I don't know what the true figures are, and the problem is nor does anyone else. We have to make our own personal decision.
The reason it shouldn't be compulsory for wintersports and cycling is precisely because it's so borderline between a helmet giving overconfidence vs protection.
In the case of seatbelts and motorcycle crash helmets the pendulum is pretty clearly in one direction.
But, in the case of snowboarding and cycling, I think they should be mandatory whilst learning or competing, but optional otherwise.
As for myself, having had severe head collisions (rendering me mentally subnormal), I prefer the high degree of 'collision aversion' that not wearing a helmet instils in me. I recognise in myself an invincibility or 'terminator' tendency brought on by armour, so I figure discouraging that will add to my life expectancy.
Others' mileage may vary.
It's a personal decision.
And a jolly enthralling discussion topic!
The discussion should be banned eh? For our own mental well being!
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You know it makes sense.
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crosbie, using your logic you would place a large spike in the middle of the steering wheel to ensure everyone drives more carefully.
I knew a lady who died over her handlebars on a leisurely Sunday afternoon ride. She was neither learning or competing. It happens when you least expect it.
Get a helmet. Wear it. I may have just saved your life. I hope you feel as good about that as I do.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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crosbie, using your logic you would place a large spike in the middle of the steering wheel to ensure everyone drives more carefully.
I knew a lady who died over her handlebars on a leisurely Sunday afternoon ride. She was neither learning nor competing. It happens when you least expect it.
Get a helmet. Wear it. I may have just saved your life. I hope you feel as good about that as I do. Some here might be starting to think your life is not worth saving
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gravystuffing, a spike in the steering wheel does not follow from my logic. There are a heck of a load of risks on the piste. Reducing the severity of a tiny fraction of them has to be balanced with increasing the risk of all of them. Remember, I support seatbelts, so I'd hardly support a spiked wheel.
For example when cycling on the road, I maximise my visibility to a far greater degree than most cyclists, but do not wear a helmet. I figure it's far better to avoid collision than to prepare for it to the extent I almost invite it. On a recent touring trip all of my fellow cyclists wore helmets, but also unlike me, no high-vis gear.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've worn an helmet for the last few years, not been a problem.
Last week in Tignes my ski prereleased for some reason just as I cranked the pace up.
After getting up and having a swear as the ski had cut across my other shin and it bloody hurt I carried on skiing.
It was only after I stopped for the day that I found a chunk of my helmet missing.
Now as to what damaged that would have done to my head is anyone guess but a gash like on my leg is the minimum (I would think).
So on a personal note I am very f***ing glad I had one on.
For me there is no debate.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 8-12-09 21:18; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Crosbie. agree whole heartedly re viz while cycling, but its still doesnt work even with yellow and red vest and 5w flashing LEDs on during the day.
Wife totalled her helmet and KO'ed herself while on the Thames towpath at 5 mph by clipping a gate with her bars. Would have been nasty sans helmet. She wears a fibre glass full face now
Would Hi viz work while skiing to stop the idiots ploughing into you?
What is high viz on snow, does my black softshell count, or my bright blue Rab Puffer? (I have been hit from behind wearing both)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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madmole, on piste, avoiding collision is entirely about skill/awareness and attitude/caution. One cannot afford to go down a piste under any notion of being cocooned in an armoured capsule protected by others observing the skiers' code. I do not prepare for collision, I take pains to avoid it - including from others out of control. I need the acuity that comes from vulnerability and fear, not the overconfidence from feeling protected and safe.
That's just my personal choice. I do not believe it endangers anyone else. I do not believe it endangers myself (quite the opposite).
I appreciate it may be offensive to others, as it challenges their own thinking, but nothing's certain. We all pick our own survival strategies because at the end of the day it's our life on the line. However, we should be able to openly discuss these approaches and viewpoints without being pejorative or absolutist.
So, hi vis is to alert car drivers - a different class of moving body. On the piste, high vis would start to become necessary if the pistes were shared with recreational piste bashers (eyes behind windscreens).
I'll add that that doesn't mean there aren't occasions when I wish I'd been wearing a helmet. A couple of years ago an old fashioned chair clouted me in the back of the knees (I failed to bend them in time) and then because of that the top bar crashed down on my head. Ouch.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 8-12-09 21:39; edited 1 time in total
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Haven't we had this conversation(s) before (many, many, many, many times to the point of nausea?)
ENOUGH ALREADY!!! Shut the F up and buy a pint or a helmet. Your choice. No-one else's. (for the moment)...
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under a new name, well issues that affect most skiers are going to crop up the most. Even if every single reader and participant to this thread never mentioned the subject again, you can bet someone will still start a new topic on this subject within a week, and there'd be ample others to join in the debate.
So, if you want to discourage people initiating this discussion, it needs to be made a sticky.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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crosbie, good point, an idea at least.
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