 Poster: A snowHead
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It's your choice so do what you want. I am amused at the apparent strength of feeling some people are showing on this topic. But saying that I have seen a number of dislocated shoulders and elbows caused by poles and straps. graeme, Thanks for the input. Poles are not at all essential for good skiing and practicing without them can be good for technique.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Anyone still got a pair of scott pole grips, I wish I could buy a pair.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| The problem as I see it is that in an avi you have a very limited time to 'swim for the surface' and/or create an air pocket around your face before the snow settles. Poles could prevent this. |
Thats how I see it. You want free arms/hands/legs. Not be anchored in the stuff with bits of gear. Or hoping that your strap might conveniently break at the desired moment...
But sincere apologies to all the faffing punters I have offended. If they want to waste their own time, thats fine! 
Scott pole grips - yes why on earth did they get stopped? Some mad safety issue wasnt it?? Someone hurt their thumb...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DaddyLouLou wrote: |
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'should I wear a helmet'
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Well, should I? |
I really don't think you should need to answer that question. Personally I think everyone should wear a helmet, all I can say is the more people wearing helmets on the piste the more you need to be wearing one, if someone crashes into you wearing a helmet and you not... GAME OVER
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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dansmith, oh FFS not again...please....I can't bear it...can someone hit him with a helmet please. please, no not the dark water again...spiders? I hate spiders, noooo, get the mushrooms OUT OF MY SOUP....aaaarghhhhhhhhhh
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Why on earth would the other person wearing a helmet make a crash worse?
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DaddyLouLou, dansmith, clarky999, be aware that you might just opening the biggest No, No, subject that has been done to death on countless occasions - you are likely be buried deep in smelly brown sticky stuff never to be seen again. This is just a warning.
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primoz, gilo, gravystuffing, sorry, I can see how straps worn correctly can easily cause a thumb injury and conversely can't see how straps worn incorrectly, or not at all, can easily cause a thumb injury
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, It tend to be that when people have the straps running over the tops of their thumbs and fall onto the pole the pole gets scraped back between the body and the snow and the strap slides towards the end of the thump thus pulling it back. It's a pretty common injury.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
queen bodecia,
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If you drop a pole, simply stop and pick it up
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A bit boring if you've wiped out and left it a long way up a steep slope and there's no kind soul higher up the mountain who will bring it to you!
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If you drop it from a chairlift, pity anyone who might be underneath!
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I don't keep the straps on when riding a chairlift - surely asking for trouble when you get on and off, isn't it?
Does anyone else, every time they see this thread title, think of scantily-clad eastern European dolly-birds (of whom there are many around Clapham Junction on a Saturday night) in their best (lack of) clothes?  |
Maybe, as a relative newbie to skiing, I've got got all wrong, on 'big' bumps I literally put all my weight through my straps.. I'd be lost otherwise... someone will be along to tell me I havn't a clue shortly... Oh well..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Poles, would you go strapless? Well this didn't turn out to be the European led fashion thread I thought it would be......................
I'll get my coat shall I?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Sarge McSarge wrote: |
| It's your choice so do what you want. I am amused at the apparent strength of feeling some people are showing on this topic. But saying that I have seen a number of dislocated shoulders and elbows caused by poles and straps. graeme, Thanks for the input. Poles are not at all essential for good skiing and practicing without them can be good for technique. |
Didn't see your post to start with [skimming.. Soz] . I ski without poles a lot, to many peoples amazement, but it doesn't do technique any good, it's OK as long as you know the shortcomings, your arms will go behind, and, unless your very conscience you'll be leaning back. On saying that I'm quite happy without them, apart from big bumps.
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Scarpa, how do you mean scraped back? I can see how, once let go, if the handle of the pole were pulled downwards and inwards the thumb would be at risk but can't really see how that might happen. Also if the straps were worn properly, once let go, if the handle were pulled upwards and inwards the thumb would equally be at risk. Actually I think in a fall either of these could happen, and probably many more contortions besides.
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You know it makes sense.
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slikedges, It seemed to be a common injury in learning to ski. Most beginners fall sideways and possibly forwards and therefore onto the pole. If they have their straps running over the top of the poles it can rip the thumb back.
You are correct in thinking that the 'proper' method also involves risk of thumb injuries.... in this case it pulls the thumb upwards and back but mostly the body is falling ahead of the pole so this does not happen. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/935273
Gamekeeper's thumb (skier's/ski-pole thumb)
This is injury to the ulnar collateral ligament (UCL) of the metacarpophalangeal (MCP) joint (on the medial side of the thumb) due to forced abduction of the metacarpophalangeal joint.7
The ligament can be torn partially or fully and there can be an associated avulsion fracture of the volar base of the proximal phalanx.7,8
Gamekeepers suffered chronic injury due to wringing the necks of game between their thumb and index finger.8
Nowadays this is a much more common injury in skiers who fall against the ski-pole/strap or ground while the thumb is abducted and so it is seen as an acute injury. It is the most common upper limb injury in skiers.8 It may also be seen in sportspeople who play with balls (e.g. basketball, netball) and in those who hold sticks (e.g. hockey, lacrosse).8
The thumb is hyperextended and laterally deviated with swelling and bruising over the joint. Pain is experienced over the ulnar side of the MCP joint.8 Grasp and pinching ability may be reduced.8
Adequate treatment is important so that pinch grip can be maintained.7
Splint and apply ice for first aid whilst transferring to receive medical attention. X-ray should be performed to exclude associated fracture if there is tenderness over the UCL.7
If a fracture has been excluded, evaluate the stability of the ligament by applying abducting pressure to one side of the UCL while applying counterpressure to the other side. Compare to the uninjured hand.7
Refer to a hand specialist may be necessary for a decision on the need for surgery, depending on degree of disruption of ligament and associated damage.
If there is joint instability and a tender mass palpable, there may be a Stener lesion present. This is when the proximal end of the UCL is trapped outside the adductor aponeurosis of the thumb. Surgery by a hand surgeon is required.7
If there is just incomplete ligamental injury and the joint is stable, treatment can be immobilisation in a thumb spica splint for 4-6 weeks.7,8 Otherwise, surgical repair is usually indicated.
Complications include osteoarthritis of the metacarpophalangeal joint. However, correct and prompt treatment carries a good prognosis with regards to return to normal function. http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Bennett's-Fracture-and-other-Thumb-Injuries.htm
For 'incorrect' strap position i.e. over the top of the thumb (which offers no advantage in hard plants)... the only reason for using the straps is to avoid losing a pole.
(c) Skiing with your hands inside the ski pole straps incorrectly can lock your hand to the pole in a fall, the pole then acts as a lever on the thumb and this greatly increases the risk of injury to the thumb joint. Whilst no one device or piece of advice has any direct evidence to support its use, using the pole straps correctly should help. Some researchers advocate that you should ski with your hands outside the pole straps (i.e. don't use the pole straps). Two exceptions to this rule would be when skiing in deep powder snow on piste though where the loss of a pole could be a major problem, or if skiing off-piste when poles may help you to "swim" in the event of an avalanche. More details on my thumb injuries page. http://www.ski-injury.com/prevention/alpine_prevention
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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OK, thumb sprains occur when you're extentended hand hits the snow and your thumb gets bent back. If you don't let go of the grip, your hand won't open, and you probably won't injure you're thumb.
the second way a thumb sprain occurs, is from incorrect pole strap use, as Telerod stated.
Pole grabbing 101.....
Take your poles and grip it lika a newbe would, putting your hand through the strap and grabbing the grip. Then extend your hand past the top of the grip, like if the pole got stuck and your hand kept moving. If you gripped the pole and strap the wrong way, your thumb stays in the loop of strap and will get bent back.
Now, grab the pole the correct way. Put your entire hand up through the loop of the strap, then bring your hand down onto the grip, grabbing both parts of the strap under your hand. If your polestraps were buckled correctly, both pieces will sit flat, and also sit flat around your wrist. NOW, drive your hand past the top of the grip again. If done correctly, the strap will go up your arm without catching on you thumb. The strap will stop smewhere on your jacket, where your arm is strong enough to either break the pole free, or spin your body around without hurting anything but your pride, avoiding the epin around is another lesson.
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/42614/does-everyone-use-poles/90#post_535284
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Poster: A snowHead
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dansmith, Megamum, it was a tongue in cheek comment. Perhaps I should've added a 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Why on earth would the other person wearing a helmet make a crash worse? |
The only time my helmet had a significant impact in the last four years, was against another helmet.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Scarpa," Some researchers advocate that you should ski with your hands outside the pole straps (i.e. don't use the pole straps). Two exceptions to this rule would be when skiing in deep powder snow on piste though where the loss of a pole could be a major problem, or if skiing off-piste when poles may help you to "swim" in the event of an avalanche. "
How would poles help you swim? 
Right on with the straps though, hard to imagine how people can wear them wrong, but obviously they do.
clarky999 :"Why on earth would the other person wearing a helmet make a crash worse?" Well think about it. Helmeted head worn by would-be Bode Miller crashes into your bare unhelmeted skull at 40mph. Which comes off worse?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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dickyb, If two heads colided anyway, surely you are going to get a similar affect and impact?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Scarpa, sorry but the only "evidence" in any of that that supports your contention about it being safer to wear the straps properly seems to be the video on the ski-injury thumb injuries page taken from ExpertVillage.com and made by Hillcrest Ski & Sports - a shop in Gresham, Oregon, and not a famous centre for ski trauma research!  The medical publications state that how the straps are worn does not appear to make any difference and rather suggest that injuries usually occur due to the thumb being abducted and extended by the pole itself. On the 2 occasions on which I sprained my thumb, once was on the pole itself when my thumb somehow got caught on the pole and once was on the strap worn properly. On both occasions either I was falling or the pole was driven up or a combination of the two.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I don't know exactly what happened ie whether it was the pole or the strap that caused the injury, but I was certainly wearing my pole strap correctly on the occasion I fell and sprained my thumb.
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clarky999 :"Why on earth would the other person wearing a helmet make a crash worse?" Well think about it. Helmeted head worn by would-be Bode Miller crashes into your bare unhelmeted skull at 40mph. Which comes off worse?
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But why would that be worse than unhelmeted Bode wannabbe crashing into me?
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The only time my helmet had a significant impact in the last four years, was against another helmet.
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And I bet it would still have been an equally significant impact in they weren't wearing a helmet.
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clarky999, sorry, I see your point now. I agree that being smacked by a helmet is as bad as being smacked by a scull.
In fact the scull may be worse as there's no "crumple zone" built into it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mosha Marc, That was exactly my thinking.
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slikedges, I know what you mean and I have wrenched my thumb the same way in a mogul field. But I have fallen forwards many times and had the straps pushed up my wrists with the poles trapped below my body. I believe that if I had worn the straps on top of my thumbs these occurances would have led to thumb injuries.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This thread could well make it to the Guinness Book of Records for most entertaining forum chat of the century.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Scarpa, yep, at least one of those falls was on moguls. Bottom line for me is that as protecting my thumbs is of particular importance, I don't use straps.
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slikedges, If you are doing jump turns or want to use very positive pole plants with extra support to push down on you can also just push your fingers through a hanging short loop and kind of half use straps 
You are correct though... if you want to avoid thumb injuries then just don't use the straps. I tend not to in certain terrain.
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FAQ
