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Poles, Why would you go strapless?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Arno wrote:
i have come round to parlor's way of thinking in the last couple of years.


My work here is done. I am now a very happy man. Twisted Evil

gilo, peut-être, but it wouldn't be very extreme opinion otherwise, and I'm pretty hardcore myself. Wink Plus I'm always looking to reduce the number of people competing for lines, so if it puts even one person off because they've got slow reactions I'm all in. snowHead

On a more serious note, I'm not so worried about my poles as much as me skis. I ski with my DINS way high, lots of the terrain (avalanche or otherwise) loosing a ski would have pretty dire consequences. I like to think that with enough kicking I could probably kick them off but I'm not sure, I know a guide who was badly rinsed and while 'swimming for the surface' and trying to kick his skis off, he crossed the skis and could barely move his legs, as it goes ho got to the surface, both skis attached. Personally I have an ABS for a little flotation help but the skis can act as nice anchor...

Thinking about it I did once get a pole jammed, all that happened was my glove was ripped off with the strap. Something I am 100% sure would also happen in a slide. Again though, it's a user issue, most of the time I wear a short cuffed glove that would come off with a little force - much preferred to shoulder damage, or worse...
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rainman, you're right. I also reckon that there's something a bit 'old school' in this advice too and my guess is that there's an inverse relationship between pole strap advocation and helmet advocation. wink Toofy Grin Laughing


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 26-11-09 14:20; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
parlor, don't get too big for your boots - it was Gordy Peiffer who converted me!

he also told me never to name-drop
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Arno, haha, I forgot you were talking about straps... Wink
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

Only way to get "skiers thumb" is if you are not using straps correctly. If you do use poles (and straps) like you should, there's no even slightest chance to hurt yourself with it... no matter how bad you fall.
And as Parlor wrote, if you don't use straps, you don't and you can't use poles correctly.


primoz, woah ... easy tiger.

For the record, I do indeed know how to use straps properly. If you read my post, I was not preaching, I was just relaying what I was told by the doc (and physos). They may, or may not, be right - but they gave me some advice, which I choose to follow.
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To be honest, I was falling way too much in my racing times, so at least about this, I know more then some doc, which never even saw snow Wink If you know how to use straps properly, then take pole, put it on and try yourself. You will see there's really no way to twist/break/dislocate your thumb because of strap. It's just not possible, no matter how hard you try.
On the other side, I totally agree you have lots of chances to do this, if you put it on wrong way. But that has very little to do with strap, but lot with wrong use of it.
PS: But don't get me wrong. I really don't care if someone is using straps or not. It's not my problem so everyone are free to use them, or not to use them. And if they follow one or the other one advice it's fine with me Wink
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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davidof wrote:


Don't worry Dan, I hear the Dendix at the Christchurch ski center is quite well attached.


haha don't I know it! I've spent many a summer tieing it down! lol the slope maybe not that white anymore but it is in very good nick! but I aint going to lie! I never seem to go out there anymore!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Never use them for lots of the reasons mentioned already. Became a habit when working on the mountain.
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Megamum wrote:

If the poles are held with the strap round the back of the wrist and the double strap coming up from the wrist across the palm - so the strap is between the hand and the grip and then the strap can be pressured downwards on by the wrist. N.B. Initially the strap feels in the way of the grip, but you soon get used to it.


This is the way I was taught to use the pole straps by my first ski instructor.
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parlor, aha, there's method in you madness!

HE'S RIGHT, STAY AWAY FROM THE OFF PISTE, ITS DANGEROUS wink LOL
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I have to agree with parlor, in the most simplest terms the advantages of using poles far outweigh the potential disadvantages. Especially when using them properly. The other thing for me is i run my bindings at DIN 14. This is because i have lost a ski before in a critical situation & it's not a situation i'd care to repeat. With my bindings set so high poles coming off in an avalanche is the least of my worries.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
primoz, I was using straps properly and slid over some steep moguls with my hand beneath my body as the pole stuck into the top of the bump below. Didn't half wrench my thumb Evil or Very Mad
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Just use Scott poles, they have straps that snap in a certain place if you apply enough force. I can verify that!! If you read the other thread about my wipe out where I bent a pole. The strap also snapped Toofy Grin
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I have some Leki Poles which have straps that velcro round your gloves and quick release into the poles. Have had them for about 4 years now and they have stood the test of time. Think they were about £70 but worth every penny, no faffing and on the one occasion I had a mega wipe out, they released. Tried to get some for the OH but they seem to be no longer available, at least in S&R EB etc.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Once you get into the habit of not using straps, you wonder why you ever used to bother. Only needed for poling along the flat or uphill. All guides say the same - no straps off piste. I trust their advice,
Also make using lifts a lot simpler.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
It's pretty funny that most of advices against using straps comes from places where majority of skiers are from UK. I don't remember much of such discussions or advices anywhere where majority of members is from Austria, USA, or anywhere else where they have much more ski tradition. And same goes when observing skiers on slopes Wink
Now it's up to you to make conclusions Wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
If you don't put your straps on properly then get someone to show you. It is not intuitive. If you walk with poles it is the same technique. It enables you to swing the pole forward controlling the swing with the strap reducing the need to grip the pole tightly. It also allows you to reach further forward with the pole without turning up the wrist. When walking downhill it enables you to take the weight on the wrist instead of the hand using the grip. This translates into more leverage and less hand grip when pushing with the poles on the level or going uphill on skis.

To do this must put your hand through the loop upwards then bring the hand down onto the grip with the strap between thumb and forefinger. Grandmothers continue to suck you eggs. Others, I hope that helps rolling eyes

I have no scientific proof but observationally I think more thumb injuries seem to occur amongst those not holding their poles in this way. From my own personal experience I broke my thumb at Sheffield using the top down technique but have not injured a thumb since changing. Wife who will not change, injured her thumb at Hintertux last weekend NehNeh
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
So I dropped a pole at least twice during two hours at Chill Factore yesterday. Maybe there is a point to these strap things after all? Lol! Laughing
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Apart from pushing why do people think we need to use poles whilst normal downhill skiing on piste?


The only reasons I have established a rationale for are:-

1) To establish a good rhythm
2) To indicate to others around an intention to turn
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primoz, re 'Ski tradition' can you point us to the figures showing that the number of skiers (as percentage of population) in the USA is greater than in the UK?
Given that the moneyed classes of the UK were largely responsible for the development of skiing as a leisure activity I would contend this does constitute a fair 'tradition'.

Anyway, back on topic I use pole straps 99% of the time. Nearest I've come to disaster was when a pole disappeared between two rocks at Nevis Range and came out with a 'special 90 degree race angle' bend...
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gravystuffing, balance, timing, rythm, anticipation, support...
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offpisteskiing, good list but please be more specific by what you mean by support. Cheers gravystuffing
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Straps off in trees, on in soft stuff. Lost one of my favourite poles on the MSB 2 years ago. Much easier to find a lost ski than a lost pole.
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DaddyLouLou, only if you can take it on the plane as hand luggage
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offpisteskiing wrote:
primoz, re 'Ski tradition' can you point us to the figures showing that the number of skiers (as percentage of population) in the USA is greater than in the UK?

I can't for USA, but I guess it's pretty clear for Austria, France and other countries around Alps Wink As far as developing skiing, I really wouldn't count UK as country which has much, if anything at all, to do with this. Wink
So back to topic, to be honest, I really don't consider advices from someone who is going skiing once a year for 5 days as relevant as those from someone who is spending time on skis every day since October till April Wink But as I wrote before... anyone has choice to do this the way he or she likes. It's perfectly fine with me, if someone wants to ski without straps. It's his or her choice and it's really not my problem.
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primoz, FYI, the Brits invented recreational skiing.

I still think that the guides attitude of 'straps off' is old school, even the younger guides I know *tend* to have an old school approach to stuff. Guides (IME) as it goes (generally) aren't the greatest skiers, if they were better skiers I would be more inclined to listen to them re technique advice. Maybe this is going down the helmet route after all...
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Ski Mojo from UK

No Fartbag manufacturer based in UK

No Gapers in UK resorts (never sunny enough)

Who says we arnt leading edge? Very Happy
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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parlor wrote:
primoz, FYI, the Brits invented recreational skiing.

I was thinking it was more about recreational drinking, but I was obviously wrong Laughing I'm glad we have you guys then, because I have no idea what we would be without you building ski resorts in Alps. And I certainly don't know what I would be doing nowadays, if there wouldn't be skiing. Winters would be so boring. Wink
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
+ 1 for the parlor analysis - If I get caught in a slide I don't think a flimsy pole will be the make or break factor around survival, I might ditch the straps in a dense tree run but straps on decent pole are designed to breakway before arm snapping occurs. Much more likely is that I have a yardsale and have to hike up something unpleasant to retrieve a pole I would othewise have had adjacent to me. Won't bother faffing to put them on if I'm just skiing lift to lift on piste etc usually.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
primoz, I am pretty sure from my own memory the various guides who have advised going strapless offpiste have been American, French and Swiss. So not sure how that fits in your UK theory!

parlor: Its nothing to do with technique its about safety.

and....
1. You dont want any chance AT ALL that your poles will stay attached in an avalanche. Noone has any evidence that 'straps will break' in a slide. Even ones with auto release are designed to release only with a sharp strong tug i.e. if caught by a tree - but not necessarily in a tumbling slide. Prove me wrong.

2. "straps on decent pole are designed to breakway before arm snapping occurs.!" huH???? so dislocated shoulders and wrists are ok then! fatbob, that looks suspiciously like b....x! Do you have any idea how strong webbing is? If you go climbing you rely on webbing not to break - it is immensely strong stuff. And straps are usually well screwed into the handle. Pull the other one.

3. The amount of time wasted by faffing punters in putting straps on and off at chairlifts is indeed ridiculous!

Little Angel
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I understand the guides' POV on safety grounds, after all why risk a client wrenching their shoulder if you don't have to? However I think the idea that the default assumption that poles are unsafe in an avy unless proved otherwise is a bit of a stretch, you can use a strap in the correct way and it doesn't have to be tight on the wrist. I've ditched poles in falls where the straps have been on. If I'm in an avy dislocated shoulder or broken wrist are acceptable results to me anyway compared to the alternatives.

I must admit I haven't checked the breakaway on my current poles but given I had some ancient Head poles with breakawy I assumed it was relatively standard, I might
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Which reminds me of the old joke...

Man walks into a bar in shorts & t-shirt carrying a 10 foot long pole over his shoulder..
Barman says: "Are you a pole-vaulter?"


To which he replies:


"Yes...

...but how do you know my name is Walter?"

(Saying it in an Eastern European accent helps...)


I'll get me coat...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
dickyb, read my post above. I've had a strap snap off at the break away point.
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offpisteskiing, Laughing that's a new one to me. Laughing
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primoz, Modern downhill ski tourism was IIRC pioneered by Brits in the Bernese Oberland. Just as moneyed Brits like Whymper were fathers of alpinism. I'm sure the locals were doing stuff before but Brits raised the profile as a leisure pursuit rather than means of transport.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/nov/27/sir-arthur-lunn-skiing

Sure lots of us are essentially gapers but to suggest that as flatlanders we can't hold a meaningful view on anything in skiing is somewhat condescending. What about Kenton Cool etc?
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dickyb wrote:

Noone has any evidence that 'straps will break' in a slide. Even ones with auto release are designed to release only with a sharp strong tug i.e. if caught by a tree - but not necessarily in a tumbling slide. Prove me wrong.


Well when I pulled my mate Jim out of an avalanche all those years ago his poles were gone. So with this we can assume that they had come off as YES he had been using his straps at the time. He also continued to use straps again afterwards after he had rehabilitated his knee.


Quote:

3. The amount of time wasted by faffing punters in putting straps on and off at chairlifts is indeed ridiculous!


This is a fascetious argument. Some people are just horrible faffers/not very good at being organised. This is just an extension of same, no doubt these are the same people that have to adjust their boots/jacket/zips/hat/goggles - delete as appropriate. I nearly always have my poles on & am gone off of the lift before the vast majority of people have ever even touched the snow. It's just about being organised.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Why does it matter if people (I'm not using the word 'punter') are faffing around with poles/gloves/goggles/hats/jackets at lift stations? They're on holiday fer chrissakes, if they want to 'waste time' fiddling with their gear, that's their prerogative. Surely better than doing this stuff in the middle of the piste.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
poles are for losers
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DaddyLouLou, yes, but leave the strap undone in case you pull your head off in a tumble.
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The problem as I see it is that in an avi you have a very limited time to 'swim for the surface' and/or create an air pocket around your face before the snow settles. Poles could prevent this.
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