I have twice fallen on very steep slopes under a very particular circumstance. In both cases I was entering a slope of of hard snow (very hard but not icy) of (at the top) at least 45º and wanted to turn across the slope to control my speed. In both cases the actual point of entry was very briefly vertical, and the slope to my left I was turning away from was steeper, so the backs of my skis as I started to ski were on a slightly steeper slope than the fronts. In both cases the backs of my skis skidded away before I managed to get a carve.
My immediate retrospective feeling was - I should have kept my weight further forward, but I'm not sure that this is right since it would un-weight the backs, which would allow them to skid more. Any ideas?
Last time was here - at the crest just above the normal Chancer entry point (Nevis), except it wasn't quite a jump when I did it. (The photo was taken near the time I was there but isn't me)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Completely amateur suggestion- turn the other way?
Completely amateur question - do you really want to carve on an almost vertical/very steep slope?
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snowball, learn how to jump turn, at a certain angle (don't ask me what) you will no longer be able to complete a carved turn across the slope, as the skis will break away due to the angle of the slope, you have two options for getting down a steep slope neatly, carve down teh fall line and hope for a decent run out lower down, or learn to jump turn and traverse across the slope, which is slower but when off piste this technique may well increase the chance of a slope avalanche, due to the impact of the turn.
Note there are two types of jump turns, one lifts both skis completely off the snow as you turn in mid air, this can be dangerous to try at speed !, the other involves the front of the skis acting as a pivot point and is IMHO harder to achive but probably a little safer at faster speeds if you can manage it.
snowball, So difficult to say without seeing it. I always think these types of critical first turns are more down to having the confidence and knowing you can do it, rather than the absolute technique involved.
Typically, I'd be setting an egde to a point where I could jump them round in almost the lenght of the ski, but you still have to land it and stick it and that depends on the snow..
I like grippy but that might not refer to your instance of hard in this case..
Personally, I'd be thinking I would give up the tails for the weight over the front of the skis...but I guess you would have to be there.
And what will further concentrate the mind if that this is very probably close to a NO-FALL zone..
All that would be going through my mind would be do it and stick it..and where my bail-out is....but the key is you have and retain the confidence to operate up there.
Another thing I practise from time to time... on little ledges, is to kick off on one foot and land it in the same position, facing the same way. I can use this as a jump, but without the turn. depending on the steepness you still might have to smear it anyway.. as dumping over head first isn't an option...
Very difficult call...IMV.. but then that is why you do what you do...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
pam w, sometimes the entry to a great slope is steep - you do it or miss the slope. Turning the other way was towards the steepest part of the slope (and, at Nevis, since the ridge got lower that way, back towards the cornice).
D G Orf, yes, I can do jump turns (taking off from the top foot) once I'm on the slope. Perhaps I should have jumped off directly at right angles and turned in the air to land across the slope (something I'm also familiar with). And perhaps the latter would have helped in dealing with with the back of the ski being on a steeper slope than the front, as I could land facing towards the steeper slope but not going forward onto it.
The normal entry to Chancer had been cut away below, leaving a fair size jump onto the icy steep traverse (becoming a slightly less steep slope) and both people I saw try it fell because the backs of their skis skidded away in a similar way to the way I described. I'm still not sure how to deal with this front/rear difference in steepness. (PS they put up a sign the next morning closing Chancer)
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 7-11-09 12:33; edited 2 times in total
snowball, from what I can see from the photo I'd drop in at an angle, across the slope, so no turn was involved, then I'd check my speed before skiing the slope. But I'm not a very extreme skier, and here I'd be looking at safety and ensuring I didn't fall!
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beanie1, I was slightly angled but, as the very top was a slight hole I cut in the cornice, I couldn't do what you suggest. The normal entry to Chancer, a little bit lower down the ridge, normally does that, skiing to the right.
But from where I was if you didn't get control fairly quickly there is a cliff just to the right. Basically I was just scared to accept the sort of speed the guy in the photo must have had after the jump. Presumably he did some big freeride turns lower down where it gets a bit less steep.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Any ideas about fore - aft ballance? Perhaps I should have stayed as normal but just angulated even more (those who have seen me ski know I angulate quite a lot anyway).
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snowball, as you well know we're pretty much at the same level, and I don't think I can do that type of entrance any better than you. But here's a tip from an Austrian guide in St Anton: use a jump at entrance to get you into a turning rhythm.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that, post jump, you're crouching down and in a better position to dig the edges in.
parlor? offpisteskiing? anyone else with that kind of experience?
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Aaaah, Chancer, happy memories.....
Without seeing you in action hard to say too much, however, I personally would always tend towards 'central' weight on steep slopes as this is more likely to get the whole edge of the ski working/gripping/sliding evenly...
Entries are often the most awkward bit of a descent and quite often require a little bit of improvisation and a lot of confidence. Look for the first spot where you can control your speed after entry and aim for that, sometimes you just have to let yourself drop or slide across a steeper icier patch, to get to a good spot, knowing (or hoping) that you'l be able to get everything back in 'control'.
On that note, there's lots of talk of carving higher in this thread - personally I tend to ski in a very non-carvy way on steeper slopes. Remember carving (done well) = speed. Do we want speed on these slopes, or do we want to get the skis scraping (sideways) to brush or 'scrub' off the speed?
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offpisteskiing,
Quote:
On that note, there's lots of talk of carving higher in this thread - personally I tend to ski in a very non-carvy way on steeper slopes. Remember carving (done well) = speed. Do we want speed on these slopes, or do we want to get the skis scraping (sideways) to brush or 'scrub' off the speed?
Thank you. I had been wondering just that. Perhaps what was meant was to get a grip when stationary ie jump/stop, jump/stop sort of trajectory on a steep bit?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
offpisteskiing, you have a point - I was wondering if more of an approximate carve would prevent the greater slide away of the backs in the mentioned conditions, but perhaps not. However I think jumping off and turning in the air to enter (as horizon and possibly Hurtle were saying), rather than trying to stay approximately on the ground as I did, might be the best bet.
Of course everything is rather different and much easier with deep snow or even a nice soft surface you can grip.
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snowball, you are doing it wrong, there is only one route in to Chancer
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I'm not sure i fully understand your description of the way the slope is going. However as i understand it you've a drop in (say 5-6ft looking at that picture) with an immediate icy turn? If this is the case to my mind there are 3 ways to do it.
1. Easiest but out & out ballsiest is to just launch straight & scrub your speed lower down. This is actually not that difficult as it's much easier to control your skis pointing straight down the slope but takes a lot of kahonaes as it's a big commitment.
2. Jump turn off of the lip so your turn is mostly in the air leaving you landing the way you want to be facing.
3. Side slip jump/drop. Basically line yourself up the way you want to be pointing get yourself to the very edge & take a small hop to slide down the rest of the way. When coming off of the Pas Du Chevre in late season often had to do this off of a small 6-8ft icefall with a bad landing always hated doing it personally but it does work. Infact i hated doing it so much i discovered a way to bypass it by monkeying down through a tree with skis on.
My €0.02
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pam w, Hurtle, I don't think snowball is using the word "carve" in the same way you are thinking of! I think he means more of a steered edged turn rather than "carve" which these days implies a cleanly edged turn. Am I right snowball?
I don't have the experience to advise on how best to cope with entering/skiing a slope like that but would suggest that when tails slide it's because of too much pressure or insufficient edge. In other words I'd guess you were edging for the (slightly) shallower slope in front of you, so perhaps you should either have edged for the steeper slope behind you or projected your weight more fore?
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snowball, and you want to ski such things for fun? {{hysterical respectful laughter}}
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slikedges, no, I doubted that even Supersnowballman would be doing linked turns on the steepest part of that slope.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Depending how hard-icy it was... I probably wouldn't want the skis to leave the snow so a jump-in might not be the plan.
I wouldn't want my test of the snow to be so crucial with a landing..... I'd side-slip, edge and jump it..and then go again until I was sure of the snow and try and string a few together.
Mostly, these thing are the steepest at the top, and if I had to bleed some of that in the interests of a safe entry, then that is what I'd probably do..
but as I said.... very hard to second guess these things unless you are there in those conditions..
but if all else was ok... and the snow was reliable, then I'd be jumping them at the steepest.
It reminds me of the you-tube vids of Corbet's. If I ever make it over to the states I fancy trying it but the entry looks tricky to say the least.... Any tips gratefully received
arv, well in that sort of snow it is easy (it was like that the first weekend I skied it - I was the first down - fabulous) (however I think he is probably in by Chancer rather than where I and the guy in the photo did, a few yards higher up to the right).
frank4short,
(1) I'd possibly dare doing that in the conditions of arv's video, but I'm afraid on the hard, wind and sun affected slope on that day I didn't have the courage.
(2) was roughly what I was thinking I should have done.
(3) possibly, I'm not sure - it is what I did later by Chancer - and nearly lost it again with tails skidding ( my friend did fall - his tails skidding away. We were neither of us sure what we should have done, hence this belated question.
slikedges, yes, I was using the word rather loosely I'm afraid.
You can see the sort of slope I tried to turn on,it only gets marginally less steep in the bit immediately below. It was almost impossible to put my skis back on even where I fell to: the snow was too hard to cut any sort of adequate platform with my skis. It had been almost impossible to climb the 2 yards up the slope to collect my skis because the snow was too hard to kick my boot tip into. Finally after a long struggle I thought they were on but they came off on the first turn (that's one problem with touring bindings, if you don't press down exactly vertical it doesn't click in). I probably should have slid 20 or 30 yards down on my bum first, but I was reluctant to lose the turns.
Megamum, well put it in perspective - I've skied for a very long time and that entry was my only fall of the 3 days. It is a lovely slope once you are on it and I was never risking my life as I have sometimes done
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 8-11-09 12:23; edited 1 time in total
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snowball, clearly a different league of skiing to what I do I blame my kids
After all it is free
After all it is free
snowball, I have to say personally i'm not a fan of pure jump turns as it's very easy to loose control on steeps when your skis are reconnecting with the snow coming back from the jump/bit where they're fully off of the snow if you hit anything unexpected. On a pure steep i'd rather use a pedal hop turn or a windscreen wiper turn (but these are more tiring). However sometime when you're going to take air anyway it's best to do it in a more controlled fashion e.g. the jump turn off of the lip.
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snowball, you've got more experience at this than me, but the closest to this I can remember would be "Oh Sh1t!" (not sure if that's its official name, but it's what's been called here a few times) in Gressoney/Alagna a few years ago - entry of 60deg+ for 2-3m then flattening out to 45ish. The young buck in our group took option 1, and got down the couloir in about 4 turns. I took option 3, then jumps once it got to the less steep section, and it worked fine.
If your ski tails are slipping away when doing that then it seems to me your weight has to be too far back - your weight pushing the tails down the slope and overpowering the available grip. Get centred and the whole ski will work for you and you'll get down in a stable slip.
If there's a section where the gradient changes sufficiently quickly that you can't get the skis comfortably on the ground pointing down the hill (or even if the tails are being forced down onto the snow nd so binding), then any turns have to be jumps. My most frequent error in these situations is again drifting a bit far back and maybe going for too much edge on the landing, resulting in the skis squirting forward as the edges engage, and me being left behind desperately trying to catch up with them.
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snowball, on hard wind effected snow I 'slide' in as well
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Quote:
arv, well in that sort of snow it is easy (it was like that the first weekend I skied it - I was the first down - fabulous) Very Happy (however I think he is probably in by Chancer rather than where I and the guy in the photo did, a few yards higher up to the right).
arv, I'm dead impressed by YOUR method of entry in that clip
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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arv wrote:
snowball, you are doing it wrong, there is only one route in to Chancer
and therein lies my big issue with Nevis, given conditions like that, why wasn't Braveheart running!
and snowball could you have entered without jumping, then slipped the first steep bit, or done a jump turn at a lower speed? I'm thinking an aerial entry isn't the most controlled way to get into that slope....
Cheers,
Greg
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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kitenski, don't really remember but I think it was a week day and we shared fresh tracks with about 20 other people on the hill Mid April...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
this is what you want
(this is into spikes I think just along in the next coire, and definitely not me! )
kitenski, don't really remember but I think it was a week day and we shared fresh tracks with about 20 other people on the hill Mid April...
So it looks like 5-10 turns then a traverse out, if Braveheart wasn't running!!
barry top clip!!
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Poster: A snowHead
kitenski, yeh it was a traverse right now then down above the Rob Roy another 5 turns or so and a run out. No walking though... the 5 turns round the corner are probably the best 5 I have ever made (in Scotland) and the most memorable anywhere.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
snowball, What ski / size were you on? and do you always use the same ski?
hired a pair of skis 10cm too short once, didn't do any steep but found that the tails broke away at high speed as I was skiing as I would do on a longer ski.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think in both cases I mentioned the problem came from, as I mentioned before, trying to get a grip where the slope went rapidly from very steep to slightly less steep (left to right) so the backs of the skis were on a steeper bit than the front. My friend is about the same standard as me and very used to steep slopes (he has skied some of the Ben Nevis couloirs) and , as I said, the same thing happened to him.
I didn't really jump in, more tipped-over and briefly lost proper contact with the ground, if you see what I mean. I possibly tried to turn across the slope too quickly (?).
barry, I couldn't make that video work - I just got a page of numbers.
Yes, I did ski Spikes once but Easy Gully was in the same state as the places I mentioned, with a much bigger cornice and lots of frozen holes in it from climbers boots so we didn't try it. (But someone had gone in using a rope on a snow bollard.) I really want to ski it next time I go, if it is in a skiable condition. It was only on my last visit, 2 years ago, that I discovered (was shown) the proper off piste. We did Summit Gully by several different routes.
daehwons, Missions - I think 176, or was it 178? It is my usual ski now. I used to ski the heavy (steel) Volant Chubbs which were super-stable at speed but much harder to carve, having much less side-cut. (This time I do mean carve in the proper sense).
GrahamN, I felt my weight was central but I could be wrong. When my friend fell I had warned him to keep his weight forward, after my experience, and he thought, for a moment, he had landed it.
I wasn't having any problems on the slopes, by the way, just at the entry.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
snowball, maybe the sidecut of the missions isn't helping you on steep firm snow. you could find yourself with only the tip and the tail in contact with the snow (esp if it changes steepness as you describe). if the midsection of the ski isn't properly engaged you could easily overload the pressure on the small bits of edge which are engaged
you might be better off with something stiffer and straighter for steep skiing
Arno, my thoughts as well - I felt that would be an issue the one time I tried out some Missions, and find I'm much happier with say a 25m radius than even a 20m radius ski on steep stuff. Besides, working to get carves out of a longer radius ski is so much more rewarding anyway . I just have to remember to realign my brain for the first couple of runs when switching from my 12m slalom skis .
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'offpiste skiing' gives some good advice...
On very steep slopes you want a skiddy turn so that you dont accumulate speed.
Almost like a very little hop followed ending in a small side slip.
Try to avoid big / rapid movements and keep it subtle.
The Scott Missions have a reasonable amount of side cut...
Which could have been part of the problem - though I am not familiar with that ski.
With more pronounced parabolic shapes on steep slopes sometime only the tips and tails are in contact with the snow ?
Which isn't a nice feeling! As the edge only bites when you put enough weight on the ski for the section under foot to grip.
^ EDIT - simulatenous post with Arno.
Too much side cut on steep slopes = not fun
After all it is free
After all it is free
Interesting - thanks for that.
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GrahamN wrote:
Arno, my thoughts as well - I felt that would be an issue the one time I tried out some Missions, and find I'm much happier with say a 25m radius than even a 20m radius ski on steep stuff.................. I just have to remember to realign my brain for the first couple of runs ...... .
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