Researchers from http://www.iml.fraunhofer.de/1327.html, are working on a rescue Navigator that can locate an Avalanche victim from their mobile phones buried under the snow.
The proposed system will use the data from the European satellite navigation system Galileo
Nice idea, I suppose GPS isn't good enough as the resolution is too low.
Just need to wonder near my iphone with a set of speakers and the interference will tell you where I am
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rescue Navigator that can locate an Avalanche victim from their mobile phones buried under the snow.
Terrible idea...
Conventional avalanche beacons suffer lots of intereferance from mobile phones.
So your mobile phone should always be turned off when skiing.
And also the battery lifetime on mobile phones isnt great - especially in the cold.
Might be useful for finding dead people who were not wearing a beacon in the first place.
As I imagine the specialist equipment search equipment will need to be brought to the site.
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Nice idea, I suppose GPS isn't good enough as the resolution is too low.
Sadly GPS doesnt propogate through dense snow very well.
Also good for finding your phone if dropped from a chairlift etc .......
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Maybe they could bring out a domestic version for people who have lost their mobile down back of the sofa ?
Though usually I just get someone to ring the phone....
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Agree its a terrible idea - If most snowsports avalanche victims don't care enough about their own or companions' lives to wear a transceiver then why should protocols be adapted to them. At the margin e.g. in tragedies like the Montroc avalanche I can see a possible benefit (but who carries their mobile on their person all the time at home?).
At the extreme someone wearing a transceiver dies while rescuers successfully save his pack or jacket which have been torn off and contain his/her phone.
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Oh great. You're dead but at least your family get your iPhone back for flogging on Ebay.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
stanton wrote:
Why pay for two systems if your mobile phone can do the job?
By far your best chance of being found is if your companions find you - by the time others can get there you are probably dead. So to answer your question - you need your avalanche transceiver till a detection device in your phone can work as well for the amateur skier as the avalanche transceiver does, which seems extremely unlikely to say the least, since in effect this means a new sort of transceiver with additional phone capabilities - in which case why bother.
However, professional rescuers might well find it useful.
To say avalanche transceivers suffer "lots of" intereferance from mobile phones is surely an exaggeration. Whether they are adversely affected or not is disputed (while the benefits of mobile phones are too obvious to need rehearsing).
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
stanton wrote:
The proposed system will use the data from the European satellite navigation system Galileo
There's the flaw... Galileo is nowhere near ready.. The plan is for it to be ready by 2013...We all know how these huge multi-national projects never meet deadlines...
So transceivers still have a good life ahead of them..
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
GPS can drop the signal on really cloudy days.
Its just not viable to stake your life on a) you being close enough to the surface to get a signal b) you being the right way up so as not to shield it from a signal, c) it being accurate enough without local WAAS stations.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
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If most snowsports avalanche victims don't care enough about their own or companions' lives to wear a transceiver then why should protocols be adapted to them. At the margin e.g. in tragedies like the Montroc avalanche I can see a possible benefit (but who carries their mobile on their person all the time at home?).
I think you've answered your own question - I would agree about carrying transceivers for off-piste stuff but for muppets like me who just cruise around on piste this is surely a good idea.
Oh and Mrs Boris is surgically attached to her phone
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Boris, I believe that on piste deaths related to avalanches ( i.e. where an avalanche crosses an open piste) are extremely low but not nil. Possibly more use re inbounds avalanches in US and Canada in circumsatnces where primary search with transceiver has been unsuccessful.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
There is already equipment that can locate mobile phones. It does not use the satellite system but directly tracks signals from the phone and was used to find an avalanche victim here in New Zealand a few months ago. Obviously not a replacement for transceivers but it is way better than probing or trenching.
Why is it a bad idea to have another tool to use? It is not as though phone location is being proposed as a replacement system.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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To say avalanche transceivers suffer "lots of" intereferance from mobile phones is surely an exaggeration. Whether they are adversely affected or not is disputed (while the benefits of mobile phones are too obvious to need rehearsing).
Be careful when spreading misinformation.... The electromagnetic intereferance from your mobile phone interfers with the 457KHz transmission freq of avalanche beacons. If you dont believe me then put a beacon into search mode next to a TV / mobile phone / CD player. Or read this little article...
It is accepted good practise to turn your phone off when skiing off piste. (and also saves the battery for making phone calls if there is actually an emergency). Sadly there have been cases of people not being located because their mobile phone interefered with the avalanche beacon signal.
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Why is it a bad idea to have another tool to use?
- Because there is already an accepted standard....
- Because mobile phone signals do cause elctromagnetic interferance with that accepted standard!
- Because we can already locate last known location of mobile phones on the surface using triangulation anyway...
- Because leaving your phone on all day whilst skiing in the cold means the battery will one day run out....
- Because people shouldnt be going off piste using iphone applications as safety items
- Because GPS signals dont reliably propogate through snow
Do you want any more reasons ?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
Quote:
Why is it a bad idea to have another tool to use?
- Because there is already an accepted standard.... rolling eyes
- Because mobile phone signals do cause elctromagnetic interferance with that accepted standard!
- Because we can already locate last known location of mobile phones on the surface using triangulation anyway...
- Because leaving your phone on all day whilst skiing in the cold means the battery will one day run out....
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- Because people shouldnt be going off piste using iphone applications as safety items
- Because GPS signals dont reliably propogate through snow
Do you want any more reasons ?
I have to say absolute dangly bits for the following reasons. No matter what education efforts are made you will find people going into high risk areas without the correct equipment due to ignorance and/or stupidity.
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- Because there is already an accepted standard
Not relevant to those not wearing a transceiver. Are you saying that as a dog does not detect a tranceiver it should not be used?
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- Because mobile phone signals do cause elctromagnetic interferance with that accepted standard!
Not relevant to those not wearing a transceiver
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- Because we can already locate last known location of mobile phones on the surface using triangulation anyway..
That does not tell us where they are now 50m down the hill under 2m of debris
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- Because leaving your phone on all day whilst skiing in the cold means the battery will one day run out....
The kind of people who don't have a transceiver will have their phone on all the time. Yes the battery will run out one day but most people actually recharge their phones before they run out.
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- Because people shouldnt be going off piste using iphone applications as safety items
Correct but do we only rescue those who know what they are doing?
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- Because GPS signals dont reliably propogate through snow
That is why we use dogs, phone detectors that directly detect the phone itself, probes etc.
I am not advocating using phones instead of anything else but to ignore one tool just because you have another is stupid and dangerous. This type of locator is for the professional rescue services not the average muppet. If you don't have a transceiver you are not going to be carrying one of these. Do you tell the family of a victim, Sorry we can't find you loved one because we decided not to invest in a good system because of the reasons above. Bring on the law suit.
Spot on Sarge McSarge. Couldn't agree more - good post.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Mc Sarge - well done....
You just spent 400+ words explaining exactly what I said in my first post.
That 'this technology would only be good for finding dead people'.
My 2nd post gave a list of reasons why mobile phone technology is not suitable for use in 'companion avalanche rescue'.
After some people asked 'Why pay for two systems if your mobile phone can do the job?'
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This type of locator is for the professional rescue services not the average muppet
I certainly *hope* the above is true.... Though the article doesnt actually say that.
And I dont speak much German.
By the way - there is already better profesional equipment out there for searching avalanche debris.
Thermal imaging cameras for starters ? Or good old fashioned St Bernard dogs...
Mobile Phone detection might serve as a 3rd option for profesional rescue teams. However geo location of mobile phones in nothing new. There are several ways of doing this already (GPS, cell triangulation etc) - they just arent particularly suited to avalanche rescue scenarios if you want to dig out someone alive.
Why pay for two systems if your mobile phone can do the job?
Off of the top of my head (but i'm pretty sure it's fairly accurate) 50% of avalanche fatalites occur within the first half hour. A sizable proporation of which are due to trauma which occurs during the avalanche itself. After that your chances of survival exponentially drop. If you need to get a piece of equipment brought in to find you then your odds of survival have just significantly dropped.
As Snowball said your best bet is to be rescued by the people you're with.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Reminds me of Recco patches - which were popular on Nevica jackets in the 1990s.
They must have sold several thousand of them, yet I dont think anyone was ever recovered alive using that system...
After all it is free
After all it is free
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Reminds me of Recco patches - which were popular on Nevica jackets in the 1990s.
They must have sold several thousand of them, yet I dont think anyone was ever recovered alive using that system...
I totally agree.
When I read the opening post I thought that this has the same problems as Recco. Great for finding dead bodies.
How many times - your greatest chance of survival if the worst happens, is by rescue from your own group.
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
Reminds me of Recco patches - which were popular on Nevica jackets in the 1990s.
They must have sold several thousand of them, yet I dont think anyone was ever recovered alive using that system...
While largely agreeing with you, there does appear to have been at least one - http://www.avalanche-center.org/News/2005/2005-12-31-germany-recco.php . I also seem to remember a live recovery having been mentioned one here in the last few years, although it was probably the same one.
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Haggis_Trap, I dont believe you used the phrase 'companion avalanche rescue' in any of your posts except the last. I guess I was confusing professional and amateur rescue response. I was not advocating the GPS based system but the existing electronic locating devices. Thermal imaging does not work well in avalanche debris and St Bernards are just for tourists, you need a proper working dog. As for phone location through triangulation, it is far to inaccurate for avalanche rescue.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
If they're going to have to bring out equipment to locate this device, then this can only be a competitor for Recco, so the question is "is this going to be better than the Recco recovery"? I rememebr someone (davidof?) saying that Recco could now actually be used from a heli flying over the scene, so that sounds pretty useful. I still see Recco tags on sale (and was given a couple myself about 5 years ago, but have since probably lost them), so it can't have died out completely. I guess if a mobile phone is transmitting a signal then there should be the opportunity for higher sensitivity detection, but as has been mentioned above, what happens if your battery runs out?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Recco could now actually be used from a heli flying over the scene, so that sounds pretty useful
Yeah - about as useful as the proverbial chocolate teapot
You honestly think a helicopter is going to be on site and have you dug out within 15 minutes ?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
GrahamN, that was quite an unusual case though, with the woman being recovered after 45 minutes under 1.5m of snow. The report even says that she was still concious. That's certainly not the way things normally go!
As far as cell phones and avvy beacons are concerned, this one has been done to death here on snowheads. I remain convinced that a phone that is not transmitting does NOT interfere with your beacon, especially not a transmitting beacon! Note that a phone that's sitting in your pocket in idle mode does not transmit, or at most transmits a few pulses every half hour or so! A phone that is transmitting might interfere with a receiving beacon, but that's not normally a problem, since not many searchers will be phoning and searching at the same time ( I guess )!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
EMI interferance is very hard to model and predict (I am an electronic engineer...)
Your requested to switch your phone off on airplane's for this very reason. Especially during take off and landing.
The electromagnetic interferance certainly wont stop a beacon from transmitting.
But it can cause confusion in search mode - even when the phone is on but not active on a call.
Potentially this could, worst case, result in spikes or ghost signals.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 11-11-09 0:17; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
^ a common 'real world' example of EMI interferance is when a mobile phone causes crackle on car / cd player loudspeakers as it resynchronises back to the base station.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Haggis_Trap, Most people I've read seem to agree that the victim having their mobile on does not affect the search significantly, and in fact the second reply on the site you gave said "So the bottom line is, turn off or move your mobile phone while searching but you can keep it on without risk it effecting your sending signal in your beep". Is this wrong? I have a few times been very glad that my mobile (or my companions' mobile) was switched on.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 11-11-09 9:35; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Haggis_Trap, phones do register with the network from time to time, but at most once every half hour, and the procedure takes about one second or so, so shouldn't significantly interfere with anyone. I've personally tried doing searches with my mobile phone sitting idle on top of my Ortovox F1 (in search mode). No difference whatsoever, which is hardly surprising seeing as the phone is basically running off a 32KHz clock for 99% of the time and only wakes up once every couple of secs for about 20-30ms to read paging.
The ruling about using phones on aircraft has been found to be null and void btw, and as far as I understand several airlines are about to, or have already revoked it.
Anyway this subject has become an issue of religion for some and, has already been discussed to death elsewhere on snowheads!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Steilhang - I have personally seen an Ortovox X1 get confused by an idle mobile phone.
Here are several more links warning about the potential danger of EMI interferance.
(google avalanche beacons + mobile phone)
No difference whatsoever, which is hardly surprising seeing as the phone is basically running off a 32KHz clock
A modern phone will contain at least 10 or 20 microchips - so there will be lots of different frequencies and also side harmonics. Not everything runs off one clock! Which is what makes modelling and prediciting EMI so tricky.
To make posts saying "it is ok to leave your phone on" is simply spreading misinformation.
Read all the information then make your choice - however personally I choose to switch my own mobile phone off. The risk of EMI interferance might be small-ish, but it is very real.
A modern phone will contain at least 10 or 20 microchips
respect where respect is due, but just for your information I worked as a system architect for mobile phones for about fifteen years, with about 600 million phones out in the field last time I counted! If I say the system is running off 32KHz while it sleeps (between paging occasions) you can rest assured that's exactly what it does! How do you think they manage to get 200 hours standby out of a phone these days?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
32 KHz will be the system master clock propogated on the PCB. However that clock will be divided up or down internally by some / most of the microchips.... The whole system does not simply run at 32kHz!
Go watch this video of an X1 showing some dubious behavious in search mode due to EMI.
NOTE : 0.54 mobile phone in idle mode!
oh for f*cks sake! The 32Khz does exactly one thing, and that is drive a counter which counts down to the next time the phone is supposed to wake up. Nothing else! Modern phones even power down significant parts of the circuitry between pagings. When it's active (i.e receiving a paging message) the system is driven off a master crystal which is usually either at 13 or 26 MHz and is mutiplied by various PLLs up to the operating frequencies of the phone. For a GSM phone that may be 52MHz for the DSP and 26 for the ARM (or whatever) processor.
Anyway, I certainly did not see anything like what happened in the film with my beacon, and I had the phone at a distance of about 1mm from the searching Ortovox, but will go home and try it out again this evening!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The TGR thread indicates there's no problem if your avalanche beacon is transmitting (i.e. if you're the buried victim), as per snowball's post above. There could be a problem if you are using a beacon to receive, i.e. you are hunting down a buried person, and have your phone on. I don't ski the backcountry and don't have avalanche beacon equipment; however if I was sitting on a piste and suddenly somehow a load of snow fell on me then having my mobile phone on does at least mean someone could ring me and listen for the ringing to find me. Quite apart from the other safety benefits of remaining in touch with those in the same group.
After all it is free
After all it is free
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Because there is already an accepted standard....
For people who carry the kit and ski off piste. I would dispute that this is an accepted standard carried by the majority of skiers. It's like saying a F1 safety helmet is the accepted standard for car drivers.
Mobile phones are carried by most people - so a system which uses them is a good thing for the majority in my view.
There are obviously issues to address, but I am not qualified to comment on these
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GrahamN wrote:
I rememebr someone (davidof?) saying that Recco could now actually be used from a heli flying over the scene, so that sounds pretty useful.
I haven't read all the above comments but that is correct and Recco can detect things like mobile phones, mp3 players etc.
There have been several live recoveries including one in les Deux Alpes not so long ago.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
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Another article here.
The company Fraunhofer-Institute for Materials and Logistics in Prien (IML) and proTime GmbH actually won a Regional Award of Bavaria, the European Satellite Navigation Competition .
There going to test the product in Berchtesgaden Galileo-Test Site this winter.
FAQ
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