 Poster: A snowHead
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Are snow chains a legal requirement in France (Pyrenees) and if so are snow socks legal.
Are chains a legal requirement in France even if roads are clear
Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you read the snowsocks website it clearly states if you are driving to the Alps snowchains are required.
It is a requirement to have snowchains in your vehicle mainly because you may drive up on clear roads but it may snow whilst you are up there and without chains you won't be able to drive down.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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kendub, in answer to teh 2nd part... yes chains must be carried at all times on designated roads.... usually altitude based...
Boredsurfing, interesting.... but is this just a case of the law not catching up with technology..... I've not used snow socks but see a lot of cars using them in the same condiitons that most are using chains and my understadning is that they are as effective as traditional chains...
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marcellus, Socks work OK in snow, but are useless on ice.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We will be driving from Perpignan daily to from Les Angles approx 1600m, so fairly high up.
Are snow socks more likely to fit different sized wheels, (for subsequent hire cars) or or they strictly designed to work with a certain wheel size
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| Quote: |
and the problem with this is
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when you've been thrown out of your holiday accommodation to make way for the next people you will, despite your igloo building skills, be uncomfy.
In practice, chains are not really a legal requirement - and those silly blue signs suggesting they should be carried are left up all summer in some places. I don't suppose anyone is ever prosecuted for failing to have legally required chains - even in the winter. However, if you hit the wrong kind of weather you won't get up the hill and if it's a busy day (like a Saturday) probably won't be allowed to try. The police frequently either turn people back or insist the chains be mounted. So going without them is really a bit daft. Besides, if you slide off the road a recovery vehicle will cost you a lot.
Chains are cheaper than socks - just practice putting them on. It's not rocket science, I'm a little old lady and I can do it in a couple of minutes.
I would guess that socks would be even less flexible, size-wise, than chains - I don't know though.
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| pam w wrote: |
| In practice, chains are not really a legal requirement - and those silly blue signs suggesting they should be carried are left up all summer in some places. I don't suppose anyone is ever prosecuted for failing to have legally required chains - even in the winter. |
eeerrrrm In reality they are..... and it's enforced during the winter.............. surely you've been held up in a stop check when heavy snow is expected, and if you 've not got them then you are told to turn around....... but true they leave the signs up all year round
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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To summarise, I believe chains are not legally required, but a) you may be turned back by the police if you don't have them, b) you may be stuck where you don't want to be until the roads are cleared, c) if you are involved in an accident your insurance company may take a dim view, in addition to any other problems the accident may bring. Think of them as an insurance policy.
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and if you search under snowsocks you will find quite a lot of info already on here
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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marcellus, yes, indeed. When it's snowy AND busy you'll be checked, and turned around. As I said above. However, that's not the same thing as saying that in practice the carrying of snowchains on roads with blue signs is treated as a legal requirement in the way that, for instance, wearing seatbelts is. So if you DON'T have them although you might in theory be breaking the law, in practice all that will happen is that you'll have to go back down a slidey road to the nearest supermarket and buy some. Or, if it's late at night, or a Sunday afternoon, wait for hours and hours and hours.
I don't go anywhere in winter without chains. I can put them on (normally) in a trice, and I think that chancing it without is plain daft. However, the key questions - and advice - are practical ones, rather than legal ones.
Even if they weren't remotely legally required, still balmy to go without them. 9 time out of 10 you won't need them. The 10th time you could lose ski time, or your flight home. Or possibly even your life. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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but this is arguing a moot point...... In France during winter months in defined areas IT IS A LEGAL REQUIREMENT........ as with all laws your choice whether to abide by the law or not but IT IS STILL THE LAW...... which you said wasn't so in your 1st post in this topic and which now welshskier has now interpreted to say that they aren't legally required... THIS IS MISS INFORMATION!!!
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marcellus, What my first post said was that "in practice they're not a legal requirement". I suppose it would be more accurate to say that "even if it is in theory a legal requirement to carry chains regardless of the state of the road or the time of the year in practice nobody will actually take any legal proceedings against you if you don't"
OK?
I also said anyone going to a ski resort without them is balmy and you may be turned back by the police.
Even the stop checks in winter don't enforce chains as a legal requirement either - do they? I've known quite a few people stopped and told either to put them on or go and buy some. It's not happened to me because I rarely go anywhere on a Saturday and I always put chains on very early. But people without chains aren't prosecuted - or maybe they are, but I've never heard of it.
So, in practice I'd say they're not treated as a legal requirement - and I've never heard of any checks being done as to whether people are carrying them, either. I've been caught in a few police vehicle checks in winter and there's never been any mention of chains.
The point is - and I really think I made this quite clear, that in practice chains are essential and you take a risk of serious inconvenience and waste of time, and possibly worse, if you don't have them.
Sorry if you think this is misinformation; I don't agree.
If the French authorities were going to take the "legal requirement" thing even remotely seriously they obviously wouldn't leave the signs up all year round.
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You know it makes sense.
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I didn't mean balmy, I meant barmy.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
marcellus, What my first post said was that "in practice they're not a legal requirement". I suppose it would be more accurate to say that "even if it is in theory a legal requirement to carry chains regardless of the state of the road or the time of the year in practice nobody will actually take any legal proceedings against you if you don't"
OK?
I also said anyone going to a ski resort without them is balmy and you may be turned back by the police.
Even the stop checks in winter don't enforce chains as a legal requirement either - do they? I've known quite a few people stopped and told either to put them on or go and buy some. It's not happened to me because I rarely go anywhere on a Saturday and I always put chains on very early. But people without chains aren't prosecuted - or maybe they are, but I've never heard of it.
So, in practice I'd say they're not treated as a legal requirement - and I've never heard of any checks being done as to whether people are carrying them, either. I've been caught in a few police vehicle checks in winter and there's never been any mention of chains.
The point is - and I really think I made this quite clear, that in practice chains are essential and you take a risk of serious inconvenience and waste of time, and possibly worse, if you don't have them.
Sorry if you think this is misinformation; I don't agree.
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I appreciate that you personally wouldn't but if someone were to try driving away from a check point without them they wouldn't get very far at all!!
| pam w wrote: |
If the French authorities were going to take the "legal requirement" thing even remotely seriously they obviously wouldn't leave the signs up all year round. |
I guess for the sam reason everyone country in the world doesn't remove parking restriction signs when they're not relevant..... too costly!!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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marcellus, It wasn't interpretation, I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted in France for not having chains. I have heard of being fined for not carrying a yellow vest. In Switzerland chains are definitely not a legal requirement. However, legal or not, I completely agree with pam w that you are extremely unwise not to have them, as I said in my post. Risking your life seems more important than risking a fine.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| welshskier wrote: |
| marcellus, In Switzerland chains are definitely not a legal requirement. |
It is the Swiss law in Defined Alpine Areas after a certain date in Autumn to have Snow Tyres fitted throughout the Winter months, this may apply only to the local population though.
Every year when we get snow down below resort level. The "I do not need Chains or Snowtyres" brigade (all nationalities have them) screw up the roads for the locals by waiting until they are on the snow before realising their normal tyres are lethal.
They block the road, which prevents the people with the correct gear moving,which prevents the snowplough getting through, which then allows the depth of snow to increase which prevents anyone moving.
They turn round to go lower to buy chains, they damage the armico and other peoples cars, and expect transfer drivers to smile at them. The words SELFISH & ATTITUDE come to mind. Rant Over 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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marcellus, Équipement obligatoire states that snow chains OR winter tyres must be used.
Just to be clear so you are not misleading people. It's one or the other and not both.
Therefore if you dont have winter tyres as soon as you pass the signs you must have chains. However if you have winter tyres you can continue without the need for chains.
Alex
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
However if you have winter tyres you can continue without the need for chains.
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I'm not sure that you'd be allowed past one of those police road block things without chains, even with winter tyres. I've seen days with 100% chained cars coming up the road into resort. 100%. And I'm sure some of them would have had winter tyres. My brother in law hired a Swiss car at Geneva, with winter tyres, and hoped he'd get away with it as he had little idea how to fit chains. He didn't - they wouldn't let him up the road till he'd fitted them.
There are times when you will get nowhere without chains, even with winter tyres, either because your car just won't move (different models of cars have very different characteristics in the snow and despite having four good snow tyres we use chains several times every winter on our Fiat Multipla, which I think isn't great in the snow) or because the police will insist you put them on.
There is a difference between what is in theory "egally required" and what in practice, on a particular day, you'll need to actually get to your destination. Sometimes more, sometimes less. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, agree with what you are saying totally. There are conditions when a 2 wheel drive car even with winter tyres WILL need chains... 4x4 and winter tyres is another story altogether !! But the "legally required" bit is the part that I was trying to home in on and it appears you agree. I always play it safe hence why I run winter tyres all winter on audi quattro. Before with a 2 wheel drive car I had snow tyres and a set of chains in the boot for worst case days. I would however have never been arrested for not having the chains !
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there is more confussion on here than at geneva airport on a saturday. like in another post regarding hire cars, snow tires and chains im confused. So i am asking this question to someone who lives in france, not someone who lives here in blighty and thinking they know it all. 1) are chains and/or tires a legal requirement in france and switzerland during the winter? 2) If i hire a car from geneva airport (swiss side) and they try to add on chains + tires for extra fee, surely if its a legal requiremant they will come with it anyway, meaning no extra fee??? 3) im staying in Petit Chatel, im going through geneva, then heading along the south shoreline of lake Geneva, Lac Leman, Lac Geneva or whatever you want to call it, then when i get to Thonon Les Bains turning south and up to chatel.Are the roads here high at all and what are the chances of bad conditions, im going on 23rd jan. Like i said, can someone who is out in france/switzerland answer these questions if possible, as you will be able to give me more accurate info than someone who goes out there several times in a season. cheers.
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Ricklovesthepowder, 
Good question. I've never been able to find any public service information which says that it's a legal requirement to carry chains. This is as close as it gets: http://www.securite-routiere.fr/information-57.html
On a practical level:
1. If you try to drive up to resort in severe snow conditions, you may find that the gendarmes are stopping people and making them chain up. Under these circumstances they will turn you back if you don't have chains, unless you are driving a 4x4. This is the worst that will happen - they will neither shoot you nor prosecute you.
2. Police do not hang around at other times and in other places and stop cars to check whether or not they are carrying snow chains. If they stop you at random, it will be to breathalyse you, check your documents, and possibly to see that you have your fluorescent jacket/warning triangle. They will not give a rat's ass about your snow chains.
3. Occasionally you may be stopped by customs officers at peage stations. They just want to be rude to you and accuse you of smoking pot.
4. If you want a winter-equipped car, ring the hire company and tell them so. There will probably be a charge, as it certainly isn't a legal requirement that every car in France and Switzerland has to have winter tyres and snowchains from December to May. If this were the case, everyone in Nice would have to buy them, and that would be ridiculous. The hire company doesn't know where you intend to go in their car, so they won't kit it out for winter unless you ask.
5. I suggest that you do pay the fee and get a winter-equipped vehicle. Summer tyres are completely useless even in a very small amount of snow. Winter tyres, on the other hand, are very effective and should be all you need unless you find yourself in the middle of a blizzard. Mr L commuted to and from 2Alpes daily for three seasons and used his chains once in all that time. (Because we had been stingy and failed to replace his balding tyres before the snow turned up.)
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what are the chances of bad conditions, im going on 23rd jan.
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Ricklovesthepowder, you're not seriously expecting some kind of useful answer to that question, are you? Most of the time, most people (even those of us who spend the entire winter in the mountains) don't need chains. But when you need them, you REALLY need them. You'd better hope there'll be some snow in that area in January, otherwise you'll not have a very successful ski holiday.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ricklovesthepowder, as someone who lives in the French Alps 12 months of the year..... 4miles past a blue snow chains to be absolutely clear;
DURING CERTAIN MONTHS OF THE YEAR ON DEFINED ROADS YOU ARE LEGALLY REQUIRED TO CARRY CHAINS IN YOUR VEHICLE..........NO MATTER WHAT CAR/TYRE COMBINATION YOU ARE USING.
As Lizzard, says, in bad weather the Gendarmes and/or Police Municipal will form road blocks to check you have them and tell you to put them on. If you don't have them they will forbid you from continuing on your way and tell you to turn around to get some. IF YOU THEN IGNORE THEM AND TRY TO CONTINUE YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE ARRESTED. If it weren't a legal requirement they couldn't arrest you..
The 4x4 with snow tyres makes no difference... both my cars are 4x4s.. both run full snow tyres..... both have to carry snow chains by law in France once I have past the Blue sign. It has been known, even though we are residents and know the Police Municipals, for the X Trail to be stopped for a spot check and the Defender to be waved through as Mrs M is getting out to show them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| marcellus wrote: |
| for the X Trail to be stopped for a spot check and the Defender to be waved through as Mrs M is getting out to show them. |
Good to see that even the French can recognise a proper 4x4.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think what we are saying is that no one can proove 100% (in writing - by the french) that it's a legal requirement. As in you can be nicked. Not allowd to proceed yes, but not nicked. If anyone can show proof then that will be a 20 years searching that I've never seen it in writing..! And in 5 winters living in the Alps I was allowed to proceed with winter tyres every time in a 4x4 including the massive feb storms in Feb 98/99 ! Maybe I'm nice to the old bill !
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Spyderman, When we were in Val Thorens a few seasons ago we noticed the pisten bully drivers drove X trails to work 
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks for putting it clearly marcellus. Strange how some people still don't seem to get the message though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Alex A, have you actually been in a stop check when not carrying chains, told to turn around, ignored the police order, continued on your way and not been arrested/fined?
(I've already acknowleged that sometimes they do wave 4x4s through the roadside checks)
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Poster: A snowHead
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marcellus, maybe i've not been clear. I always have chains in the back of the car. Just whenever the stop checks are in place I've always been waved through. A few times had a bit of a conversation about chains and said I have them in the boot but the car is so solid with snow tyres (always more than 5mm of tread) and 4x4. From my experience in deep snow that's fresh it's actually quite "grippy" with quattro and snow tyres. There's a particular slush that chains would be handy on, but for the most part it's really no a benefit to put chains on a well shod 4x4. Tyres are everything IMO. The road i'm used to most is up from Bourg to Tignes / Val and also from Aime to La Plagne. To be honest I think the car you have makes a huge difference. Audi's 4x4 (especially the older ones) is streets ahead of many of brands.
Alex
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
what are the chances of bad conditions, im going on 23rd jan.
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Ricklovesthepowder, you're not seriously expecting some kind of useful answer to that question, are you? Most of the time, most people (even those of us who spend the entire winter in the mountains) don't need chains. But when you need them, you REALLY need them. You'd better hope there'll be some snow in that area in January, otherwise you'll not have a very successful ski holiday. |
why do you not think there will be or something? is the snow usually bad then or something??? cheers
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ricklovesthepowder, nobody knows when it's going to snow heavily, even a week ahead, let alone a few months. Roads only tend to be difficult fairly briefly - because they get cleared quickly (though when it's snowing hard it builds up faster than they can clear it sometimes, especially if roads are congested).
Most of the time it doesn't snow heavily (otherwise we'd all drown in the stuff). If your trip coincides with a heavy snowfall (or even a light snowfall which can make roads extremely slippery; I once had to put chains to get up a hill with one inch of slushy snow, despite having 4 snow tyres) you could well need chains. If it's a busy day the police could stop you, and make you put them on. If it's not a busy day you could continue your journey, get stuck and try to put on chains in the middle of the road, surrounded by irate drivers.  Or you could continue and lose control of your car and end up against a tree in the forest. At least two cars do that on our local road, every year and they almost always have local 73 number plates. the well placed local garage makes a fortune pulling them out, and the rest of us have to wait when their tow truck is parked obliquely across the road to get a straight pull on the winch.
I don't understand your question, really. You know it snows (unpredictably) in the mountains in January, or you wouldn't be going skiing. And if you know it might snow when you're travelling, you need to accept that you should have chains and know how to use them. Not because they are a "legal requirement". That's really irrelevant. But because they may be the only thing which will enable you to get where you're going.
Being forced to put on snow chains en route from the airport to your accommodation bodes well for a fantastic week. Having to do so on your way home, after a week of poor snow, is a bummer, but at least means you catch your plane home.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
But it's downhill ...
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not necessarily all the way. And whilst losing traction driving uphill just tends to mean you get nowhere, you can get places fast when you lose traction downhill. Those 73-plated cars I've seen in the woods were going downhill - round a bend with a poorly engineered camber - when they created income-generation opportunities for the local garage. Fortunately it's a forest, not a cliff.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Chains are cheaper than socks - just practice putting them on. It's not rocket science, I'm a little old lady and I can do it in a couple of minutes. |
The mind boggles at what the good folks of Chichester get up to...
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FlyingStantoni, surprising things!
A few years ago we - well he - did the practice drill with the chains on the drive way, all worked perfectly, so they got put in the bag in the garage to go into the boot.... the following day when we left for France. Went out to dinner locally - to Chichester - that evening and during the evening we had an unexpected dump of snow, remote house, hilly roads, and we could have done with the chains to get out, which of course were in the garage at home. That was in the time when we had standard tyres and chains, now the car gets fitted with its winter tyres early December so not only ready for anything we face in France, but dodgy roads round here too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pamski, life is tough, out in the foothills of the South Downs. These soft folk out in the Alps don't know the 'arf of it.
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