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knee protection strength.

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Probably this has been asked before, but are there any exercises to strengthen muscles which specifically support knees against twisting forces? Or is it just covered by general leg strengthening such as squats and riding bicycles uphill which I already do?
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snowball, I do single leg lifts which really go for the quads. In the past I have concentrated on these almost to the exclusion of all else...
I put a 4lb weight on the toe and lift the whole leg...
You should make sure this does not aggraviate the back ...so might be better from a raised sitting position..

Balance of the leg muscles is the key...so squats, leg lifts and riding seems to cover it.

Other things to do would be thigh lifts and this strenghtens around the groin and core..
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snowball, I keep saying it . . . walk backwards up a hill and the variation is to wide-step and x-step to give lateral loading to the knees. Looks bloody stupid but it does develop the support around the knees and js less boring than multiple reps in a gym.
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I've also said this before, but a good quad-strengthening exercise to do while you're watching telly at home, is to sit on the floor, back against the sofa for support, both knees bent. Then extend one leg, lift it just two or three inches off the floor and, without lowering it to the floor, move it up and down and from side to side. Particularly if you also use ankle weights, you'll soon feel what that is doing. wink
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snowball, the above are all good exercises but it is also useful to perform slightly dynamic exercises (i.e. with movement but CONTROLLED and not fast or with momentum) under variable/unstable conditions like you will encounter whilst on the slopes.

Using a BOSU with the flat side up and standing on it with legs slightly wider than shoulder width apart and then rotating laterally i.e. rolling your hips and thighs from side to side WITH CONTROL and whilst engaging your core (the sensation of engaging your core should be like sucking in your gut when you are putting on a tight pair of pants and not just pulling in your stomach per se). You will have to lift up your heel when you roll to the other side and push down with your toe/ball of the side you are rolling onto. (Diagrams which I don't have would make things easier to visualise!!!)

You can vary this by doing it with legs slightly bent and ankles flexed and then alternate every 10 reps with straighter legs as well. This exercise strengthen your quads, calves, glutes and, to a slightly lesser degree, your hamstrings. 3 sets of 10 reps on each side with a 1 minute rest between sets should be a good start.

TG
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Touchguru, I use my BOSU (actually a cheaper equivalent) while watching television as well. And sometimes while doing the ironing, but wouldn't necessarily recommend that! wink Anyway, doing some useful exercises at the same time as watching the box beats lounging on the sofa. Smile The only thing is that, as you imply, pulling your stomach back to your spine (which is how a lot of Pilates practitioners describe the 'sucking-in' you mention) is crucial and needs to be practised, so at first it may be too difficult to multi-task. I've done years of Pilates, so it's more or less second nature to me now to engage my core most of the time - though I'm not so good at remembering when seated (she said, pulling her stomach in. wink )
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This guy has some good
ball workouts Shocked

Havent managed this yet but can do it on a BOSU ( flatside up )

Checkout his other vids Toofy Grin
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Don't overdo it on the quads - make sure you work the hamstrings too.

In lunges - reaching the front foot out further will work the hamstrings more.
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What's a BOSU?
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beanie1, A half ball with a hard flat side. This means you can use it both sides - hence BOth Sides Up BOSU Toofy Grin
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pam w, yep I always did lunges onto dynadisc and mixed them up - recover forwards, recover back, lunge back, lunge from dynadisc etc etc... Also bridges on ball and hamstring curls... Must get back into it soon hopefully this treatment will settle down enough to see me back to exercise
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Hurtle, Pilates and ironing??? Sounds like you could comfortably compete in the Extreme Ironing Championships wink

I am a firm believer in the benefits of Pilates as this was what got me through a number of tournaments. I would never have been able to compete without it.
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The strength building methods mentioned here are excellent. Let me add, though, that of at least equal importance is proper ski technique. Good technique can go far in protecting poor knees. Poor technique can destroy a good knee in a blink.

If anyone's interested in the details, just say so.
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Sorry, only just come back to my own thread. Thanks everyone, I didn't know about BOSUs either - perhaps I should get one. I'm afraid I never go to Gyms so all the equipment stuff is a foreign language to me. I'll need to take care with the leg lifts since I have had back problems in the past.

I asked the question because I have twice damaged knee ligaments (without a full tear) and was told that I have "ligament insufficiency" in one ACL (ie I only have part of it, which allows a little (unintended) movement in the joint when stressed). That was the season before last so I have skied a season since. I don't know if it has mended, or can mend, itself since then (?).
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snowball, if your doc allows it, go out to the back garden with a football, probably best without a gym. Maybe skip a bit of rope if the doc lets you.

I know you like the bike; the idea here is to get some lateral motion and stability work to supplement the bike, as well as two-footed hops with balanced landings.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 8-11-09 15:23; edited 1 time in total
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Hurtle, have you figured out how to activate core without sucking navel in yet?
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comprex, I'm absolutely fine with engaging my core, thank you (including, but without limitation to, the area around my navel). Meanwhile, have you figured out how to activate your core and, at the same time, sing a l-o-o-ng line of coloratura music? More difficult, you'll find. wink
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Thanks, comprex.

FastMan, without good technique the slush and rubble and breakable crust I ski regularly would have done for my knees by now. Very Happy
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comprex, ha ha tricky question wink Laughing
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Can I quickly make a point to what could be a dead subject.

The key to supporting your knees is definitely the hamstrings, pretty much all the exercises we do for skiing and in most exercise/sport these days tends to develop the Quads, evn wlking will do this. The result is that whe you fall back and have to pull yourself back up again the only thing countering the massive power of those muscles on the front of your leg is the hamstrings and the ligaments in your knee, i.e the ACL. If you havent done anything to your hamstrings then its all on those little ligaments, add a twisting motion to this fall and you have a BIG issue.

The CSIA recomends if you go to a gym, for every quad exercise you do 2 pure hamstring exercises, leg curls etc.... the best exercise I have found is definitely with a balance ball.

Lie on your back and put your heels on the ball, then straighten you back and hips to make a plank. From there bend your knees until your feet are flat on the ball (keeping your hips/back straight). This is a great one for the hamstrings and also for your core strength... I strongly suggest everyone tries this at least once, its the best skiing exercise I've seen all year. Try it now, thank me later
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dulcamara, I made the point about the hamstrings in mine of 7 Nov above. wink You can do a similar exercise without a ball - push up onto shoulders and feet with bent legs. Then raise one leg and balance - aim for one minute. Then the other.
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pam w, I see it now, thought I would repeat it with more force... i like people here and it seems like good advice
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Good hamstring exercises pam w, and dulcamara.

The only thing I would say to someone who hasn't done these exercises is to do pam w's , suggested exercises first and then progress to dulcamara's as this is a much more difficult one to keep everything in control whilst maintaining good form and not hurting your back or other parts.
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Touchguru, Yeah that's a fair point, Its not an easy exercise. I found it helped to start off with your elbows on the floor to keep you steady and also support your back a little then make it harder by taking them away.
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pam w, do you mean something like this:
?

I'm not really wanting to buy more equipment (my small house already has bad storage problems - so now I'm supposed to get a BOSU and a ball: how big?) I have to be a bit careful with my back so does this make the ball inadvisable - or anyway unnecessary?
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snowball, no need to bother with a BOSU if you don't want to. They are not that cheap either although you can get cheaper versions. A swiss ball of no bigger than 55/65cm in diameter (although this does also depend on your height and weight!!) would be all you will need plus floor exercises as suggested above.

That is the correct exercise as detailed by pam w, but that would be a progression of the first exercise. Initially just uncurling(straightening your spine as above) from the pelvis to the neck, but VERY slowly until your shoulders pelvis and knees form a straight line and then hold that position for 10 seconds initially with both feet on the floor. No need to raise or lower your legs until you get the hang of it.

Then VERY slowly lower your body back onto the floor from the shoulders back down finishing with the pelvis and into a neutral spine position (as defined in Pilates - approximately where you can fit one flat hand underneath the curve in your back).
When lowering imagine you are squashing a line of ants and you need to squash each one individually all the way down the line (apologies ant lovers Smile )
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Thanks.
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the first stage as described so eloquently by Touchguru is also brilliant if you have any niggling lower back problems. Which I have right now because I've been up and down a ladder into the attic with piles of books to stow away in areas with no standing headroom.
So will go and do a few RIGHT NOW!
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Having managed to acquire a partial ACL tear last winter, I fully agree with the hamstring strength being important for knee health.
But, a couple more points: to prepare it for the rotational and lateral forces of skiing, you need to do some rotational & lateral moves in training (eg lateral jumps, jumps with 180 deg rotation etc, theraband lateral leg pulls, partner-resisted torsional hip rotations (he holds one foot and attempts to resist it while you rotate it, focusing on rotating through the hip, not the knee).
Then, to have a safer rotational movement, you can learn to steer more from the thighs, not the hip (as per warren smith's "thigh steering") and do drillS to build this movement pattern (steering the foot by rotating at the hip, powered by the thighs)...impossible to describe in writing, but you've probably seen the WS articles in the ski mags...
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dulcamara wrote:
The key to supporting your knees is definitely the hamstrings, pretty much all the exercises we do for skiing and in most exercise/sport these days tends to develop the Quads, evn wlking will do this. The result is that whe you fall back and have to pull yourself back up again the only thing countering the massive power of those muscles on the front of your leg is the hamstrings and the ligaments in your knee, i.e the ACL. If you havent done anything to your hamstrings then its all on those little ligaments, add a twisting motion to this fall and you have a BIG issue.


I really don't know much about this, but is that correct?

I know muscles work by contraction, so how do hamstrings help when you're straightening the leg?
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Quote:

I really don't know much about this, but is that correct?


Mosha Marc, based on my various visits to various physios, it does seem to ring-true.

Pretty much every physio I've ever seen about my various knee problems has always commented on my lack of strength in the hamstrings and glutes and have given me exercises to help even things up.

So maybe there is something in this.

I'm sure a physio/doc will be along shortly to confirm or correct though!
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Hurtle wrote:

Meanwhile, have you figured out how to activate your core and, at the same time, sing a l-o-o-ng line of coloratura music? More difficult, you'll find. ;-)


Would you mind terribly if I do Boris Godunov instead?
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comprex, too easy. wink
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Hurtle, certainly, but ... how'd you know?
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Touchguru, I just tried that exercise and it seems quite easy without lifting a leg. I did about a minute and a half with both feet down and probably could have done more, then immediately tried lifting a leg as in my sketch above - and could easily do about 15 seconds on each, repeated, without straining. So how many of those should I do? Starting fresh I could do about a minute on each leg - probably more. But it was hard to gauge if my back-leg line was exactly straight - lifting my middle a couple of inches higher made a big difference to the difficulty.

However I heard that muscle strength is very specific to the angles the joint is exercised through and is much less strengthened at other angles. This being a static exercise how much is it helping more generally?


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 12-11-09 23:31; edited 1 time in total
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comprex, how do I know? I know the opera. The point I was making was the coloratura, which requires a different sort of technique, for diaphragm support, from that for normal Pilates core engagement. Boris doesn't do coloratura. Basses can't move that fast. wink (as I was reminded at the choir practice from which I have just returned, and at which the dozy basses were having big problems with some Handel choruses with a lot of notes in them.)
Sorry for thread drift, everybody.

Touchguru - do you teach Pilates? You're very good at explaining the exercises. Very Happy One trick I have on 'un-rolling' is to breathe out just as I start to unroll, that really helps to engage the core correctly. Same with sit-ups. Talking of sit-ups, it amuses me to see how many people at the gym 'bounce' their sit-ups, crunches and the like - completely pointless. You can always tell those who've learned Pilates, because they are hardly moving, but still going red in the face! Laughing
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snowball, it is very hard to tell you what to do without seeing exactly how you are performing the drill. I this exercise you are working hamstrings and glutes.

Whilst I can do all the one legged and balls drills explained above, if I do the two feet on the floor exercise properly (60 seconds held in the up/suspended position followed by 10 reps of slowly raising to 3 counts up and 3 counts down - making sure not to hyper extend the back - 3/4 sets of these) that I can certainly feel my hamstring and glutes working.

What I do to make this exercise harder i.e. with 2 feet on the ground still, ensure that your knees are no more than a fist width apart and your feet a similar distance apart, as it is easier to do if your feet and knees are spread out.
Each consecutive set that you do you move your feet further away from your body/butt (MAKING SURE THAT YOU ARE NOT ARCHING YOUR BACK TOO MUCH AND PUTTING STRAIN ON IT). I am sure you will find that this is challenging and will have your hamstrings and glutes working quite a lot by the last set.
If you want to further increase the workout you can first put your feet onto a raised surface/step and do the exact the same exercise.

IF this is still too easy and I would be very surprised if it is, then you can progress to one legged raises as per pam w's diagram above. Remembering to start right from the beginning i.e. flat on the floor with your feet not too far from your body/butt.

If you want a good core program I am very happy to send you a couple that I am currently doing which includes all the above plus many more as well as swiss ball work.

Hurtle, you are 100% correct. Breathing correctly is very important when doing all exercises. I am not a Pilates teacher but having played competitive sport for quite a while as well as coaching two sports (not skiing obviously... Wink ) I have used, and written, my fair share of exercise programmes.

As I said in a previous post, Pilates exercises were I believe the main reason that I got through a tournament in 2003 with absolutely not one second spent on the physio plinth or any strapping on any part of my body (a massive first for me).

And I also raise a wry smile when I see someone in the gym doing an exercise with seriously bad form (such as bouncing full curl situps). Invariably I will, politely, try and help them if I am concerned they will do themselves some damage. Most people are actually quite receptive as long as you don't try and help the steroid induced muscle freaks who know EVERYTHING about exercise there is to know.. rolling eyes Laughing
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Touchguru, Thanks Smile
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Touchguru, some of us "steroid induced muscle freaks" have been doing, competing in and coaching several sports for most of a lifetime also. Madeye-Smiley

We had a bit of a laff last night with the Pilates instructor. She was working on the cable chest press machine at close of business last night, maybe 90lbs shown. So we offered to spot at the free bench.

She couldn't stabilise an Olympic bar with 30lbs on it, not enough core engagement. Laughing
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Sorry for thread drift, everybody.

Classy thread drift though. wink
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