 Poster: A snowHead
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| an outbreak of Watford Gap ignorance .............. |
 Plenty of that about! I have friends who think coming to where I live is the deep frozen north! 
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| To get to the Alps, I need to plan ahead................. Scotland isn't beyond outer Mongolia, with transport by horse and trap, though at times I do wonder if probably some in deep South think it is. |
For many people, going to Scotland would need as much advance planning as a trip anywhere. I think there is a need for all the Scottish ski resorts to address the "getting there" issue. It is surely fair to say that Scottish conditions are rather less predictable than high Alpine resorts, so if people do need to plan ahead, they will choose a resort more likely to deliver on the chosen date. Therefore I think that Scotland's resorts would do well to put together imaginative last minute short-break packages that include accommodation, transport from stations/airports & shuttles to/from the resort, then market them aggressively, particularly when good conditions are forecast, targeting areas of the UK from which a short break can easily be done by rail or air.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Never been bu thats really good news and I'm definatley going to try and come up this year
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Winterhighland wrote: |
| an outbreak of Watford Gap ignorance .............. |
Plenty of that about! I have friends who think coming to where I live is the deep frozen north!
| Quote: |
| To get to the Alps, I need to plan ahead................. Scotland isn't beyond outer Mongolia, with transport by horse and trap, though at times I do wonder if probably some in deep South think it is. |
For many people, going to Scotland would need as much advance planning as a trip anywhere. I think there is a need for all the Scottish ski resorts to address the "getting there" issue. It is surely fair to say that Scottish conditions are rather less predictable than high Alpine resorts, so if people do need to plan ahead, they will choose a resort more likely to deliver on the chosen date. Therefore I think that Scotland's resorts would do well to put together imaginative last minute short-break packages that include accommodation, transport from stations/airports & shuttles to/from the resort, then market them aggressively, particularly when good conditions are forecast, targeting areas of the UK from which a short break can easily be done by rail or air. |
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. From the South East (especially Kent) it is much easier and cheaper to get to the Alps than to Scotland - especially given that French roads are substantially better than ours. The M6 is not somewhere I like to be on a Friday or Sunday afternoon, and it is fairly unavoidable when going north of Manchester. Once you get north of Glasgow, you drop down to largely single carriageway roads, with limited opportunities to avoid following a truck at 40mph. The route through France to the Alps is dual carriageway or better until the end. With the pricing policies on trains and aeroplanes, everything other than a self drive trip is a lot cheaper if you can plan in advance, at least to the point of which flight you are going to get. That said, if I was on the north side of the major bottlenecks (Manchester, Birmingham, Nottingham) I would not be that keen on a self drive south unless I could get one of the overnight ferries from one of more northern ports.
From Devon/Cornwall according to Via Michelin, Glencoe is over 900km, while Les Arcs is about 1300. So about 500 miles difference over a return journey. In a car with a decent sized fuel tank and/or reasonable economy, that is only 1 tank of fuel (a friend's Laguna gets 600-700 miles/tank). Neither is a sensible weekend journey in a car. A last minute short break by sleeper/plane would be very appealing if transfers were organised and the price wasn't excessive. Weekend short breaks that linked with the sleeper from London to Fort William providing 1 night's accomodation in Fort William, luggage storage for the arrival and departure days and transport to the nearby resorts, if marketed effectively would work well for people based within an hour or so of London, especially those who have limited annual leave. A bit like the day trips to Les Arcs which holidayloverxx has described - only 2 days skiing instead of 1.
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I do agree with the problems with travel for people who live in the south of England. Its pretty impossible to get to some of the ski centres from Edinburgh if you don't have a car! I looked at a return train from Edinburgh to Fort William the other year and I think it was about £50. Winterhighland has a lifts to the hills section and people occasionally post on here looking for a car share but obviously it would be good if there was something more organised. However there are plenty of skiers in Scotland who live within a few hours drive of the slopes and who never venture up there. I think it is these skiers who need to be targeted by any marketing campaign.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Great news that Glencoe will be open.
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| From the South it is much easier and cheaper to get to the Alps than to Scotland |
For sure...
However Scotland has a population of over 5 million people.
From the central belt its possible to reach most of the ski areas in about 2 hours drive - which makes day trips easy.
People living close to the slopes, who can take advantage when the conditions turn good, will always be the core target audience.
When it snows plenty people still turn up to skiing in Scotland - especially at weekends 
Scottish ski resorts are small 'locals' resorts with 600m vertical and lots of t-bars.
Why try comparing them to places like Meribel ? They are two very different things.
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Great news - all those £1 glencoe lifts i purchased in the winterhighland fantasy lift league are going to perform really well for me 
One day I must try and get over to Glencoe to ski - it is now the only scottish area I've not skied at, but it is the hardest for me to reach.
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| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| One day I must try and get over to Glencoe to ski - it is now the only scottish area I've not skied at, but it is the hardest for me to reach. |
It is definitely worth the extra effort, Dave
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Am getting a little bit tempted.. drive up and see some friends in Glasgow, and then pootle on a bit... heck why not?
Can you hire planks and shoes or do you need to bring your own? (mine being in France, I'd need to plan a trip to the Alps first if there is not hire shop...oooh now that's another thought... London to Glasgow via Bourg - wonder what the flights are like? ) 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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JimW, You can hire stuff but it isn't the best 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| arv wrote: |
| JimW, You can hire stuff but it isn't the best |
In fairness from what I saw when friends hired kit, Glencoe's hire stock (of skis) was all brand new last season. Not sure about the boards.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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good chance they are upating it as it's been devoid of anything new for a while.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| moffatross Trees wouldn't help either (even if they could somehow be persuaded to cling onto life in the thin peat) as the snow is already captured rather well by the natural lay of the land. |
| Winterhighland wrote: |
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| Then they need to plant a few trees. Stop the snow blowing away and make it look better. |
Even if the trees would grow on the rock outcrops they'd be counter productive here. Meall a' Bhuiridh's snow holding comes from a combination of deep gullies interspersed with barren rocky outcrops that don't hold the snow - the wind thus drives the snow into the gullies to significant depths (>30ft in places). Trees would slow the wind and reduce drifting, something you don't actually want in this instance.
Lack of skiers rather than lack of snow is the normal end of season decider for Glencoe, this is something that needs a huge effort to address and it probably will be a slow process. People are chomping at the bit now and it's not quite November yet, but it's into Jan before the base normally takes hold and conditions often peak after the majority have put their toys away for summer. It's why I hate the misnomer, winter sports, snowsports are as much spring sports.
Snowmaking can help deal with the above issue, if lower down can be opened up earlier, this could help Glencoe capture early season interest and give a better chance of holding that interest through the season. The other benefit of snow making would be to keep the mid to lower mountain links intact through the season, vastly increasing the appeal and capacity of the mountain at such times.
Due to the topography of the mountain the natural snow fields outlast the skiers interest as it is, but the upper runs further out, esp the Spring Run and Flypaper don't naturally lead to an easy return to the bottom of the top lifts, the natural lie of the snow fields is down towards Mugs Alley, and being able to extend the snowcover on this low level man made fenced piste through the season would hugely improve the ease of skiing the mountain in Spring, make it much more appealing and allow you to to get in a lot more significantly longer runs in a day. |
moffatross, Winterhighland, I'm sure the trees could be planted somwehere that would not interfere with the natural snowholding areas. Trees would make the place look even better and provide alternative terrain.
Agreed on the snowmaking. The bottom half of the mountain would benefit greatly.
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Poster: A snowHead
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^ ^ Yeah, I saw the website was down earlier and reckon the same geeo, they'll hopefully be updating the site and giving us more information about short and medium term plans.
With regards to getting up there from the south I think it is possible, and I feel my travels are a testament to this, but I understand some people's reticence on the matter. However if you do have the flexibility to grab a weekend and maybe pair up with someone else to share the driving it's really well worth the effort if you're not addicted to terraformed motorway pistes, skiing in Scotland is very different for sure but it can be highly rewarding to say the least and it's great for technique!
Ultimately though I think Winterhighland is right, there are two types of skier, the once (maybe twice) a year holiday skier and those who see it as a pastime they indulge in at every available opportunity - be that in domes/on plastic all year round and/or they grab trips to their local or not so local mountains in Scotland and the north of England (let's not forget the likes of Yad Moss and the other club fields). It is often the case that people seem to be talking a different language when they are in the 'other' group but each to their own ... as long as they don't open by dissing the other ... something that might have been perceived as happening earlier in this thread and does, in my experience, sometimes happen when Scottish skiing is discussed. Certainly I have got 'mildly' anoyed in the past by people making ill informed comments about Scotland when they have little or no experience of it.
Anyway, I think Butterfly and Randomsabreur do have a point - marketing of Scottish skiing and the sort of deals they mention are lamentable in their absence and with variable conditions it is very difficult to plan ahead, if that is what you need to do. For those north of Birmingham a trip up would be a possibility but there just aren't the promotions and packages to encourage them to go whereas there are for the Alps. Also unlike the Alps Scotland has little snowmaking and what exists is antiquated and is not used to the sort of affect we see in the elsewhere. One of the heartening things for me in the press release from Andy Meldrum is the following statement:
| Quote: |
| The new owners believe that the best way to safe guard and develop skiing at Glencoe is to explore the possibility of snowmaking to ensure that the centre is less dependent on the vagaries of the Scottish climate. “With this in mind we plan to have a number of weather stations up and running by the start of the season”. |
This represents one of the first times that anyone in change of a Scottish ski area has stated clearly that part of their strategy for moving things forward is snowmaking, something that could potentially ensure more available runs over a longer period of time in a season. Obviously studies need to be made first to access viability (as they are at Cairngorm with the help of Winterhighland members), and the promised weather stations will be a part of this, but if snowmaking is viable and funding forthcoming this could help to create a more snow sure situation that could then be marketed in the ways suggested by Butterfly and Randomsabreur. I also hope that if successful this might eventually act as an example other Scottish ski centres would follow thus creating a more viable situation across all the ski areas.
I certainly look forward to hearing more about this and other proposals for Glencoe and wish Andy Meldrum and his team all the very best of luck. I also urge everyone able to get up there to support their efforts by skiing the area this season
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The Glencoe (and related websites, the web cam one and the ticket one) will be down for probably a couple of days. The sites are being moved to different hosting/servers and they'll re-appear as peoples DNS catches up with the servers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I saw an article in the newspaper the other day which suggested going to ski in Scotland in February when the Alps were crowded and expensive. It said that there should be enough snow by then. Nice to see Scottish skiing touted, but the trouble is that there was no discussion of the unsuitability of treating Scottish skiing like Alpine skiing - booking far ahead - so they risked people experiencing the negative side of Scottish snow unrelyability and being put off trying it again. Many years you might find very little snow in February and easily the most reliable month is March - something the writer perhaps didn't know. Publicity needs to be both informed and realistic or the benefit to Scottish skiing may not be long lived.
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snowball, totally agree and I think this has been one of the problems in the past.
It would (perhaps will) be interesting to see if snowmaking may one day change this situation and make planning ahead a surer bet!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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roga, I'd love to see some snow-making, but will the number of skiers in Scotland make the investment worthwhile (particularly given climate uncertainty)? It is a no chicken, no egg situation.
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^ studies are underway at Cairngorm and given Glencoe have ststed the following in their first press release I think there may be hope:
| Quote: |
| The new owners believe that the best way to safe guard and develop skiing at Glencoe is to explore the possibility of snowmaking to ensure that the centre is less dependent on the vagaries of the Scottish climate. “With this in mind we plan to have a number of weather stations up and running by the start of the season”. |
Personally I think it's about investing to pull the punters in and make money rather than letting it all drift, after all there are a lot of ski areas elsewhere (particularly down under) that have turned things around through strategic investment in this very area.
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| roga wrote: |
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| “With this in mind we plan to have a number of weather stations up and running by the start of the season”. |
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Is this to find out how much of the time it would be possible to make snow and have it stay where it lands?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snowball wrote: |
| Is this to find out how much of the time it would be possible to make snow and have it stay where it lands? |
Yes, precisely that - there are now a number of weather stations on Cairngorm, most as a result of cooperation between Winterhighland members and CML, which are accessing the viability and extent of snowmaking weather windows as well as other factors like wind. I believe the number and extent of these suitable weather windows has been surprisingly high but Winterhighland will be able to give you far more detail on this than I can because he has been involved in the project on the ground. It sounds as if a similar set up is being considered at Glencoe, perhaps as a result of what is happening at Cairngorm ... the difference is that Glencoe appear to see snowmaking as an important part of moving things on whereas Cairngorm have never made such a clear statement on the matter.
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brian
brian
Guest
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| Skyhawk wrote: |
Is there accommodation near by ? are there times when you are guaranteed snow (or fairly close to guarantee ) ? I have also wanted to ski in Scotland.
What is the closet airport ? |
There is plenty of accommodation within half an hour or so. March and early April are probably your best bet for snow.
Any one but SFO ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Glencoe Village, (by the sea, at the bottom of Glencoe) and several places between there and Fort William have some B&Bs. Fort William has loads of places and is close to Nevis area skiing.
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Just close your eyes at Glasgow Airport and open them again at Loch Lomond.
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You know it makes sense.
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Re comments on tree planting to hold snow, the tree line in Scotland is very low depending on tree type and location e.g. between 500 & 800 metres is typical. As stated elsewhere in a Snowheads thread, native trees planted 80 years ago in the Cairngorms around 650 metres, are not even 1 metre high today. If the trees do grow, the wind will soon get them.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 4-11-09 22:01; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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arv,
What's wrong with Glasgow Airport? As airports go, it is actually quite nice as is the route north from the airport from the word go.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 4-11-09 22:01; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It is OK, just nothing remarkable to look at. The new roundabout over the backroad in Dumbarton is just a pain in the ar*e.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
A fantastic ski area, amazing scenery and the most challenging skiing you can wish for.....
Theres alot of truth in this. I havent been skiing long but from my experience in courchevel, cairngorm and glencoe i found the glen slopes the most challenging. Piste is not quite the correct word. A different type of skiing
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Here here (No. 1). The Coe is just amazing - can't wait for the season!
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When it's all said and done, snowsports to me isn't a once or twice a year holiday thing, it's a part of my day to day life for 5-6months of the year. The majority of skiers going to the majority of ski areas around the world day-trip, yet it's something that seems incomprehensible to the majority of UK based skiers. It's not hate, it's an observation based on the fact that for those who skiing and boarding is an ever present part of their life, their needs and requirements and indeed their outlook on snowsports is so different from the once a year holiday maker, that it may as well be a different sport all together.
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Here here (No.2). I think I'll get this printed on a t-shirt: !! I reckon that it goes hand in hand with the mentality of a lot of ski-Scotland types.
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Somer good photos of Glencoe's steeper skiing on that highland-instinct website, arv.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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snowball, yeh, I keep track as the posts go up 
You should have a look at Haggis Trap's (snowheads user) website, pretty cool too.
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Is there much in the way of steepish off piste at Glencoe? Not knowing any is partly why I usually end up at Nevis.
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| snowball wrote: |
| Is there much in the way of steepish off piste at Glencoe? Not knowing any is partly why I usually end up at Nevis. |
The flypaper is marked as a piste but is a piste in the same way as chancer etc at Nevis is a piste. As is the case with the corrie dubh at Nevis it is fairly rare for it to be officially open. The flypaper itself is around 40deg. There are variations around it depending on snow cover. Its much easier to do laps than at Nevis and the braveheart is never open anyway. If glencoe is open the flypaper is generally skiable. There are other options off the back and front of glencoe but are snow/wind direction dependent. If you really want some crazy lines hike round the back to Criese and a dozen or so steep gullies await.
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| roga wrote: |
^ studies are underway at Cairngorm and given Glencoe have ststed the following in their first press release I think there may be hope:
| Quote: |
| The new owners believe that the best way to safe guard and develop skiing at Glencoe is to explore the possibility of snowmaking to ensure that the centre is less dependent on the vagaries of the Scottish climate. “With this in mind we plan to have a number of weather stations up and running by the start of the season”. |
Personally I think it's about investing to pull the punters in and make money rather than letting it all drift, after all there are a lot of ski areas elsewhere (particularly down under) that have turned things around through strategic investment in this very area. |
roga, Agreed.
This is classic British management.
Sit on their hands and do nothing because they are scared.
Cairngorm has been studying snowmaking for years and still done nothing about it.
It sounds like Glencoe is about to do the same.
They should drive over to the snowgun shop immediately this afternoon. Whip out their credit cards. Buy a few IDE snowmachines. Drive back to Glencoe. Stick a water hose on the tap. Turn the mountain white. Hype it up on the Web and in the press. Open up the resort and start taking cash.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have skied Flypaper a few times long ago when I was last there (the pistes were also open right down to the road). I don't know the variants and I'd love to have someone show me the other options around the back one day when they are viable.
And yes, Chancer etc are marked as pistes but there is also the proper off piste between Easy Gully and Summit Gully and things beyond that I haven't done yet.
Although it helps to have Braveheart open you can skin up from the bottom, far enough to traverse out, in 10 minutes if there is a decent amount of snow or only a bit more if there isn't.
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IDE snowmakers are probably a bit of a red herring unless your trying to maintain a very compact area, and possibly year round or something similar and even then given the capital cost and energy outlay you'd probably have to charge similar to a fridge for sliding about in a giant slush puppy?
For general mountain use the snow still has to be got from the plant to where it is needed, taking the largest of these IDE snow makers (anyone have even a rough price?) with a production of 2000m3 per day, that is equivalent of 4 Ratnik Sky Giant IV air/water guns. In the snow making discussion thread on Winterhighland there was a comparison between snow making and snow farming operations using large Kassbohrers with a bucket attachment. Without going over the full workings again, it would take four pister bashers working around the clock to distribute the snow from a large IDE snow maker (and that's assuming they never had to travel over about 400m to dump the snow).
The piste basher kit alone would have added a cool million plus to your credit card! 
The logistics side definitely favours traditional snow making, you make the snow roughly where you need it. Whether an IDE snow maker actually offered any benefit to winter operations would depend on (just an example):
Calculate the number of Ratnik Skygiant guns (including support infrastructure) you could buy for the same price as the IDE snow maker and 4 piste bahsers.
Number of Ratnik Guns divided by 4 = how many times more snow per hour can be made with the air water guns when temperatures permit than the IDE snow maker churns out. (call this the multiplier value)
Now look at the winter season temperature data you've been studiously collecting and ask yourself the question - which is greater?
The number of hours in the winter season or the number of hours where the temperature was below -1.2c wetbulb multiplied by the multiplier value above.
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FAQ
