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What do you expect a beginner to learn in week 1 (sideline)

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
And I thought I stayed up lete last night Shocked Can I suggest that only those there at the time know the facts and that there is far too much supposition for a reasoned argument. Besides, you only booked the 5 minute argument and time is up
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Aaargghhhh! I hate the way these discussions get sidetracked... I dread to think what Manda will make of all this stuff.

The ONLY way to "decide who is right" (Manda - ESF is shite/PG - ESF are great) is for the couple involved to have some lessons with another instructor, which is what I originally suggested....

And although I'm not an instructor, I've taught quite a few people to ski, and there is a huge range of 1 week ability/progress, with virtually everyone making excellent progress, but one or two very little. My mate Nick (fit, 20ish) was skiing parallel down the gunbarrel at Cairngorm after 2 days, and my schoolfriend Nige who me & my brother taught to ski at about age 13 was equally good - he's now a BASI 1 skiing demigod! On the other hand, my brother's wife is 33 and fit, a rock climber, horse-rider and dancer, and has had about 7 weeks skiing including ad hoc instruction from me and the bro, plus proper lessons in Wengen, Courchevel, Alpe d'Huez and Zermatt, and she still can't do confident parallels down wide French red runs.

Manda's story and PGs counter arguments prove nothing so far, so please no-one get too angry!


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 16-02-05 9:48; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
PG, it seems to me that every time someone levels even the slightest criticism at you, they are "impugn(ing) your character."

What statements have I made about you that are without foundation?
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Kramer, if you really can't spot them in your previous post, then maybe you need some more sleep, as do I wink
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
PG, good point, well made. And I have got a severe case of man-flu at the moment. It's touch and go whether I'll make it through the day, so I might be a little on the irritable side. Crying or Very sad
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You'll need to Register first of course.
Sorry for any offence caused.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
No problem, nothing wrong with a little rumbustious debate, so long as we all know when to step back from the brink Smile Hope you feel better soon...
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Crumbs...I go away for 12 hours and discover the issue's been heavily debated! Yay Snowheads! (although sadly a lot of the comments aren't on topic....)

What I'm after is whether anyone has had lessons with EFS, had bad instruction, and tackled EFS about it. Any takers for that question??? (put yr hands up so I can count 'em)
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PG, I know you've had satsifactory interaction with EFS, and I certainly commend those EFS instructors who obtain and maintain a good reputation. And certainly in some resorts EFS has improved its game recently. But you know as well as I do that for every english speaking punter who's had a good service from EFS, it certainly appears that there's an equal number of dissatisfied english speaking EFS punters. Very few British or International ski schools providing services to english speaking skiiers in France receive such approbrium, in fact it's unusual to find many negative comments about them at all. Yes, there is a perhaps steriotyped knee jerk reaction to EFS, but until EFS sort themselves out across France in a more wholesale manner than exists at present, they'll continue to get slated on this forum as well as in general conversation.

Incidentally if a non-EFS school were responsible for providing the same lack of instruction these Yorkshire folk got then I would condemn that school in exactly the same way as I've done here (I'm an equal opportunity slagger-offer wink )

Right. Got that off my chest.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
For the record (not that this is a court of law or anthing slightly similar)
I joined the novices at the end of the day for a few times down a short green slope. Our friend spent most of the day with them.
Our friend has been a keen skier since childhood, having learned in her native Austria, she's not an instructor.
She, like I and virtually every skiier I meet, has made and will continue to make comments to our friends about their skiing style, and suggest tips to make their skiing easier/safer if we think it might help. It's not the same at all as "instructing".

ise, thanks for the sarcasm, but in fact I didn't say our friend was instructing. The novice who was leaning back was reminded by our friend a few times to keep her weight forward, but this certainly didn't amount to coaching. The novice said that she had been leaning back all week - she had not been corrected during the instruction. In any case she ignored the advice given by our friend, and continued her leaning back, and THAT caused her injury. We concluded she had developed this style in the absence of correction, and had hung onto it for the duration. In any case it proved unsafe when she took to a slightly steeper (but still green) slope.

Yes, I have no idea of what went on during the lesson and I have no idea whether the instruction was simply failing to sink in but what I do know is that the novices are related to eachother by their involvement in a Rambler's group - they are both fit and active despite the passage of time, and regularly spend weekends and holidays camping, hiking, and climbing. These people are not deficent in fitness, sports, nor their understanding of outdoor activities, nor did they appear to be slow learners. They both were enthusastic about learning to ski.
Based on what I know about them, with adequate instruction the novices should by the end of the week have been able to tackle at least a very easy blue, not with any style or confidence, but at least with some degree of competence even if it involved a few wobbles. Watching their displayed skill set, however, our friend was afraid to encourage them to move off the very easy green, and I agreed with her.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
ssh,
Quote:

I do know a bit about skiing and teaching skiing, however

I would say you know a lot about teaching!
Quote:

If I accepted a week's instructional pay from anyone, I would fully expect them to be skiing as I mentioned earlier. If they were not, I would personally see to it that their fees were refunded--even if it was entirely due to their personal inability to apply the teaching. Because, certainly, I must not have been able to communicate, provide drills, guide, and do whatever else I could have done to bring them to the point(s) of "ah-ha!" As a result, it is, by definition, my own failing that caused the ultimate failure to meet the objectives.

"My own failing" is the relevant bit. If a learner fails to learn, it is always because the teacher is not teaching him/her in the appropriate way for his/her learning style, and not because he/she is stupid, inept, middle aged Shocked or whatever. This is what all teachers learn (or should learn) at training school. And if ski teachers don't truly believe this, they shouldn't be teaching - however fast they can ski slalom gates wink
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
maggi, always? No, can't see that. I can think of examples where that doesn't apply (and have given one). We're talking group lessons here - and depending on the number in the group, the breakdown of the individuals concerned, irrespective of the ability of the teacher, a week - under some circumstances - may not be enough to ensure any significant progress has been made with some types of pupil.

ESF lessons are cheaper - and groups larger - than with most British-run schools. If you want/need more individual attention, you have to pay more. Certain types of beginner only really respond to one-to-one lessons.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:

I can think of examples where that doesn't apply (and have given one).

No, you didn't! You said that
Quote:

The first week though he was utterly hopeless. He thought he was useless, he was absolutely terrified of the slightest gradient, he'd always been told he was crap at sport and had come to believe it. A week of lessons, in a group, just reinforced that belief.

That says that the teacher was rubbish, to reinforce that particular belief! And, the person described being your son, how come you didn't notice his lack of confidence beforehand?
Quote:

ESF lessons are cheaper

No excuse. People would pay a bit more if they got value for money. Anyway, would they appreciate being thought of in terms of peanuts and monkeys?
Quote:

Certain types of beginner only really respond to one-to-one lessons

A tiny minority probably would (sort of those with dyslexia of the feet? rolling eyes ) but in an ideal situation, with a good teacher, this would be spotted well before the end of the week. It would be clearly explained to the learner and the money already paid put towards a private lesson or two.

By the way, I may try out your comments on the OFSTED inspectors next month - or perhaps not Laughing
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
maggi wrote:
Quote:

I can think of examples where that doesn't apply (and have given one).

No, you didn't! You said that
Quote:

The first week though he was utterly hopeless. He thought he was useless, he was absolutely terrified of the slightest gradient, he'd always been told he was crap at sport and had come to believe it. A week of lessons, in a group, just reinforced that belief.

That says that the teacher was rubbish, to reinforce that particular belief! And, the person described being your son, how come you didn't notice his lack of confidence beforehand?

Er no, it doesn't say that at all. What it actually says is that failure can reinforce a sense of failure. The (excellent) teacher did his level best, having been made aware of the problems, but as the days went by, following a couple of setbacks when we thought we were getting somewhere, it became clear that more personal tuition was needed. Inadequacy in front of a group is not the best learning environment for extreme cases when confidence is lacking, no matter how good the instructor.

maggi wrote:
Quote:

ESF lessons are cheaper

No excuse. People would pay a bit more if they got value for money. Anyway, would they appreciate being thought of in terms of peanuts and monkeys?
Quote:

Certain types of beginner only really respond to one-to-one lessons

A tiny minority probably would (sort of those with dyslexia of the feet? rolling eyes ) but in an ideal situation, with a good teacher, this would be spotted well before the end of the week. It would be clearly explained to the learner and the money already paid put towards a private lesson or two.

By the way, I may try out your comments on the OFSTED inspectors next month - or perhaps not Laughing

OFSTED inspectors are well aware that some pupils suffer from learning difficulties. That's why there is provision for 'special' schools to cater for SENs - less of a "tiny minority" than some would think.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Am I alone in not knowing where this thread is going ?

I find it strange that the output of any weeks' skiing instruction/tuition should be the basis of any judgement as to the proficiency of that instructor.

A friend and I learnt to ski as geriartic wannabes over Xmas - for 3 days he progressed much better than I , however he then develped a mental bllock about the 'steepness' of one particular slope and went backwards (literally) for the rest of the week. This magnified in difference to the extent that at end of the week he actually walked down off the slopes even though he had been down that particular piste earlier. The instructor was concerned that he had done something wrong -- not sure why as it was all in my pal's head ( which he readily admitted).

Personally I would assume that given there are 16,000 ski moniteurs/instructors on ESF books there are excellent ... and not quite as good, but I don't see why that should make them a no-go area. I personally have since got on better with an independent French instructor, however each to his own. He let me move quickly away from Snow-plugh turns ( which murder my knackered knees) while the English instructor continued in his attempts to improve them , even though I was in agony turning left.

I accept that Manda, was not having a go at ESF in particular but us Brits do have a tendency to have a go at our closest neighbours ( Go on admit it ! ), and I have already heard ESF '3rd hand' horror stories from others ! Please excuse PG, and myself we both choose to live in France and like the people and the culture so are always like ly to jump to their defense , in my case regardless of subject matter and logic rolling eyes
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Newbie50, quite right.

In answer to your first point, having a go at ESF is used by some as the equivalent of some sort of Masonic handshake and they fondly imagine it establishes their credentials as a hard-core skier so they don't get confused with someone who's only skied for a few weeks. You're right in suspected some anti-French thing is going on as well.

People do progress differently though as in your experience. Mrs Ise and I learnt to board together and I was quite hopeless for the first week while she had no problems. In fact, I'd absorbed and understand all the instructor (from ESF) had done, it just took a little while to sink in.

For the record, ESF (not EFS for goodness sake) in St Gervais are pretty good and I've used them personally over the years and sent family and friends to them.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

In fact, I'd absorbed and understand all the instructor (from ESF) had done, it just took a little while to sink in.


Good excuse ise, I'll use that one with Mrs H next time the need arises wink

I guess the reason ESF gets criticism here is that snowHeads ski predominantly in France and the ESF if is the biggest French ski school and so if some small percentage of their instructors are not up to scratch then people will comment on this, whilst they're probably not going to comment if their instruction was okay or good - they may just say something if it was fantastic.

We've had group instruction in 3 countries France (once), Austria (3 times) and Switzerland(once) and we've had a private lesson once (in France, not ESF). The quality of the experience seemed to depend on the individual instructor rather than on the ski school; we've tended to view ski school as semi-social rather than really serious technique development. Interestingly I learned aspects of carving by discussion here, and practice by myself...

I'm not sure what to do in future - private lessons with 'named' instructors (regardless of ski school), small ski schools such as New(?) Generation or branded clinics such as the Warren Miller series...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
To get back to the original question ............... rolling eyes I don't think the bilingual nature of the lesson will have had anything to do with it. I have myself often done bilingual (or even trilingual) lessons, although it does take more of an effort from the teacher.

I cannot venture an opinion about the two people concerned, but having recently had several major "repair jobs" to deal with resulting in 2/3 cases from clearly inadequate instruction, I do feel that they probably didn't get a very good week's instruction. This has NOTHING to do with the ski school itself.

A more serious problem is that so many beginners book through their TO for group lessons. They should be encouraged not to do this. NO teacher in the world can adequately coach 12 people at once. You can try, but none of the 12 will progress as well as if they had lessons in smaller groups or as individuals. I largely agree with SSH about customer care, but this is not the French way. (Sorry PG).

Manda, I think your friends whould have asked earlier in the week for a transfer to private lessons, or to go in another class - but then as beginners, they wouldn't know, would they? I don't think they'll get a refund because they did have all the lessons. Did they speak to the instructor? Did they ask for more correction? Did they say at the time they were dissatisfied? If not then they don't have a leg to stand on. Sorry. Sad
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I had mediocre ESF instruction during my first forays into skiing in the late 80's. Poor English and big class sizes meant I'm sure the instructors couldn't do the best they were capable of for the English groups. Sad The only way I learnt was by trying to mimic the instructors posture and follow his tracks (which I couldn't quite do). Confused I abandoned the ESF and have had some pretty good instruction from independant (not necessarily "British") schools since. Last year noone but the ESF could fit me in, so I had a couple of private snowboard lessons with them. The youngish instructor spoke decent English, was pleasant and encouraging, was able to assess and reappraise my strengths/weaknesses as I progressed, and convey ideas and imagery to help me along. Very Happy Surprise surprise I thought he was bloody marvellous and despite always knowing that there are good and bad eggs (and circumstances), the experience has boosted my impression of the ESF.

I'd like to think that their standard of English has improved...erm...across the board. That'd be a major contribution to road safety, as they say. I would also guess that at least the younger ones are more aware of the need for good customer service. Or was it just that it was a private lesson? wink
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
PG wrote:
maggi, always? No, can't see that. I can think of examples where that doesn't apply (and have given one). We're talking group lessons here - and depending on the number in the group, the breakdown of the individuals concerned, irrespective of the ability of the teacher, a week - under some circumstances - may not be enough to ensure any significant progress has been made with some types of pupil.

ESF lessons are cheaper - and groups larger - than with most British-run schools. If you want/need more individual attention, you have to pay more. Certain types of beginner only really respond to one-to-one lessons.
I know literally nothing about ESF (other than what I've read here). I do know a lot about teaching, however, having taught many things, from skiing to computer networking, computer programming, personal achievement, and successful marriage principles over the past two decades. I have a certificate in adult education as a result of my development as a technical trainer in the early 90s. Hence, I do have formal credentials for my opinions on this matter. As a teacher, it is always my responsibility to use all means available to me to communicate to every student the concepts that are the objectives of the lessons. I use examples, stories, testimony, anecdotes, drawings, animations, hand motions, physical interaction with the students, and on and on and on. Anything that it takes to connect with what each individual student already knows and bridge the gap to the new concepts. When I teach skiing (which is limited these days, but I had the task of teaching 4-year-olds to ski last year, from never-ever to directing their skis through cones in a single 4-5 hour day), I recognize that not everyone learns the same way, has the same background, or physical skills. Nonetheless, my job is to figure out how to get the concepts through to them and help them apply those concepts (unapplied concepts are of very limited use) and reach the reasonable "next step" objectives.

I can imagine no scenario for on-snow instruction in skiing for which specific outcomes cannot be clearly defined and articulated. The PSIA novice progression is an example of such a set of outcomes, in fact, and gets the majority of students to being able to do and understand the basics of controlling one's skis and skiing within the span of a few hours (even in a group of 5-10 people). A week-long learn-to-ski program has pretty obvious objectives, and reasonable interpretation of these objectives far exceeds what the students discussed in the opening post of this thread experienced.

As a result, I stand by my comments here and my pledge for what I would do as an instructor in this situation. There may be mitigating circumstances, I grant you, but given the input articulated here, I rather doubt it.
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easiski wrote:
I cannot venture an opinion about the two people concerned, but having recently had several major "repair jobs" to deal with resulting in 2/3 cases from clearly inadequate instruction, I do feel that they probably didn't get a very good week's instruction. This has NOTHING to do with the ski school itself.
easiski, I'm glad you dropped into this thread. I agree with this, especially the final statement. Nothing I have said here is intended to speak negatively of the ski school. Only to communicate that in the instance being discussed, reasonable expectations were not met. Thanks!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Manda, are these folks likely to try skiing again? I certainly hope so. Especially given your description of them, I can't imagine them not being able to catch on to skiing in a relatively short time! Why not sign them up with easiski and know that you'll get them truly wonderful instruction? In fact, invite them to join us here and fill their thoughts as they prep for their next time out? snowHead
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Frosty the Snowman wrote:
And I thought I stayed up lete last night Shocked
It's only 23.00, MST. Laughing
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As I wrote previously, the above is almost entirely beside the point I was making. That the evidence presented, based purely on hearsay and assumption, falls way short of justifying the condemning of an individual or organisation. I was adressing a point of principle, in an attempt to find a balanced, fair approach. I find it rather sad that some people would rather ignore this and prefer the lynch mob mentality.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
PG wrote:
As I wrote previously, the above is almost entirely beside the point I was making. That the evidence presented, based purely on hearsay and assumption, falls way short of justifying the condemning of an individual or organisation. I was adressing a point of principle, in an attempt to find a balanced, fair approach. I find it rather sad that some people would rather ignore this and prefer the lynch mob mentality.
manda has presented significantly more evidence that seems to justify the earlier commentary on this. I also don't see any tendancy towards a "lynch mob" here. I see concern and belief that two novices did not experience the outcomes that most of us would expect from a week-long learn-to-ski group instructional program. Some folks used strong language to communicate this, but that's the general gist of the commentary. In fact, it was originally asked as a question to determine if the expectations were out of line.

What evidence would you like to feel that this can be objectively judged? A clear articulation of the progression used? The result of each drill for each of the two individuals being discussed? A complete recounting of the week just spent? Or, is it your belief that snowHeads can't be used for discussion of the validity or success of a given instructional experience because the information presented cannot be objective or complete enough?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Please do not try to infer that I do not share such concerns.

Let me turn the question around. If you were the instructor concerned in a similar discussion, and let's assume for the purpose of this argument that in your hypothetical case the accusations include fabrications, misrepresentations and exaggerations, that the ski school had been named, and the location was known.

How do you feel your case should be discussed in an open public forum?
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
PG wrote:
Please do not try to infer that I do not share such concerns.

Let me turn the question around. If you were the instructor concerned in a similar discussion, and let's assume for the purpose of this argument that in your hypothetical case the accusations include fabrications, misrepresentations and exaggerations, that the ski school had been named, and the location was known.

How do you feel your case should be discussed in an open public forum?
Openly among the members of the public forum. I would expect that the good would far outweigh the bad, that defenders would come to light (as has happened here), that recommendations for taking care of the situation in a timely manner would occur (as has happened here), and so on. I do not see anything in this thread that says that all ski instruction from a particular organization is terrible and should be avoided. I see a question about a particular incident looking for validation of expressed opinions. What happens next in that case? I don't know. But, in the hypothetical you create, I would expect to actually come out the better for it, since I would expect my customers to rally to my side as a result! snowHead Cool
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Yes, that's it. Evidence, at the very least, as represented by the personal experience of your customers, directly to the forum. That is the bare minimum we should expect. Unfortunately we have no such thing in this case.

A far better debate was started by easiski elsewhere, and referred to the question of what we should expect from a first week's instruction. Now that was worthwhile. I followed it throughout, yet you don't see me posting counter arguments to any of the points made there. I agreed with the vast majority.

What I don't agree with is a ski school and instructor being loudly condemned, without any evidence to back it up from those who allegedly underwent the instruction.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The instructor was never named, although the organization was. The question was about whether or not the students should persue a refund. There was, in my opinion, no real "condemnation" by the respondants on this thread (although there was some implied in the initial post). I (and others) suggested that there were likely avenues for seeking compensation, and that the novices in question didn't experience the outcomes that they should have given their length of time in the classes. I still feel that way, and there is no scenario that I can imagine that would change my mind about that, especially given the additional commentary. Even if Manda was overstating the point, I still believe that an expectation to be skiing all of the greens at a specific resort following a week's instruction is perfectly reasonable.

We have seen, in this thread, folks who have used the organization so roundly criticized in the initial post come to its defense (not least of which, you, PG). As a result, we see that this organization has both effective and ineffective instructors and the students have both successful and unsuccessful results. No one here will be surprised by that. There is no news in that. There can be nothing approaching any level of doubt that such must be the case for every ski school on the planet (yes, including the ones where I have taught--perhaps especially those!).

My point is that, "I think thou protesteth too much!" Someone claims to have witnessed a lousy result of a week's worth of ski instruction. It happens all the time everywhere. That accusation is not surprising. What should one do about it? Turn around to the ski school and tell 'em that they didn't meet or exceed your expectations and you'd like another go. Or your money back. Either of those requests is reasonable. In fact, were I the instructor or SSD, I'd want to know about it so that I could make sure that it didn't happen again!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
PG wrote:
Yes, that's it. Evidence, at the very least, as represented by the personal experience of your customers, directly to the forum.
I believe that this has happened here, since both positive and negative experiences with the ESF have shown up on this thread.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
Yes, that's it. Evidence, at the very least, as represented by the personal experience of your customers, directly to the forum.
I believe that this has happened here, since both positive and negative experiences with the ESF have shown up on this thread.

No customer of the ski school or instructor concerned has contributed to this thread. My points clearly referred to the issue of attacking a specific school without such evidence being presented. No more, no less.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
PG wrote:
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
Yes, that's it. Evidence, at the very least, as represented by the personal experience of your customers, directly to the forum.
I believe that this has happened here, since both positive and negative experiences with the ESF have shown up on this thread.

No customer of the ski school or instructor concerned has contributed to this thread. My points clearly referred to the issue of attacking a specific school without such evidence being presented. No more, no less.
But, other customers of the ski school have. That, IMNSHO, is sufficient.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
Yes, that's it. Evidence, at the very least, as represented by the personal experience of your customers, directly to the forum.
I believe that this has happened here, since both positive and negative experiences with the ESF have shown up on this thread.

No customer of the ski school or instructor concerned has contributed to this thread. My points clearly referred to the issue of attacking a specific school without such evidence being presented. No more, no less.
But, other customers of the ski school have. That, IMNSHO, is sufficient.

To the best of my knowledge - please correct me if I am wrong - not of that specific ski school. My experience is that there is considerable variation from one school to the next. Reasoning from the particular to the general, induction, is only effective when both the original premise is sound and there is commonality of approach and standard in the organisation concerned. I have doubts on both levels here.
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4 level nested quoting - well done chaps - I think that's a record snowHead
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ian Hopkinson, what makes you think they'll stop at 4 wink
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PG wrote:
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
Yes, that's it. Evidence, at the very least, as represented by the personal experience of your customers, directly to the forum.
I believe that this has happened here, since both positive and negative experiences with the ESF have shown up on this thread.

No customer of the ski school or instructor concerned has contributed to this thread. My points clearly referred to the issue of attacking a specific school without such evidence being presented. No more, no less.
But, other customers of the ski school have. That, IMNSHO, is sufficient.

To the best of my knowledge - please correct me if I am wrong - not of that specific ski school. My experience is that there is considerable variation from one school to the next. Reasoning from the particular to the general, induction, is only effective when both the original premise is sound and there is commonality of approach and standard in the organisation concerned. I have doubts on both levels here.
(Had to quote all of them for the two Ians!) ESF is always discussed here like there is commonality. If there's not, then you're right, there is no basis for reasoning this way. In that case, we have very little to go on other than the original reported observation.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
If you stare at the middle of it for long enough, you can see a giraffe
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
Yes, that's it. Evidence, at the very least, as represented by the personal experience of your customers, directly to the forum.
I believe that this has happened here, since both positive and negative experiences with the ESF have shown up on this thread.

No customer of the ski school or instructor concerned has contributed to this thread. My points clearly referred to the issue of attacking a specific school without such evidence being presented. No more, no less.
But, other customers of the ski school have. That, IMNSHO, is sufficient.

To the best of my knowledge - please correct me if I am wrong - not of that specific ski school. My experience is that there is considerable variation from one school to the next. Reasoning from the particular to the general, induction, is only effective when both the original premise is sound and there is commonality of approach and standard in the organisation concerned. I have doubts on both levels here.
(Had to quote all of them for the two Ians!) ESF is always discussed here like there is commonality. If there's not, then you're right, there is no basis for reasoning this way. In that case, we have very little to go on other than the original reported observation.

At what point does the nest system implode? wink
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
PG wrote:
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
ssh wrote:
PG wrote:
Yes, that's it. Evidence, at the very least, as represented by the personal experience of your customers, directly to the forum.
I believe that this has happened here, since both positive and negative experiences with the ESF have shown up on this thread.

No customer of the ski school or instructor concerned has contributed to this thread. My points clearly referred to the issue of attacking a specific school without such evidence being presented. No more, no less.
But, other customers of the ski school have. That, IMNSHO, is sufficient.

To the best of my knowledge - please correct me if I am wrong - not of that specific ski school. My experience is that there is considerable variation from one school to the next. Reasoning from the particular to the general, induction, is only effective when both the original premise is sound and there is commonality of approach and standard in the organisation concerned. I have doubts on both levels here.
(Had to quote all of them for the two Ians!) ESF is always discussed here like there is commonality. If there's not, then you're right, there is no basis for reasoning this way. In that case, we have very little to go on other than the original reported observation.

At what point does the nest system implode? wink
If you focus on the center, you can hit the target. (Or something...)
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Frosty the Snowman, I get a dying horse flanked by two guys with whips. wink
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