 Poster: A snowHead
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| K2 and the Pontoon weren't the "second" mainstream rocker ski |
I didnt actually say that. However K2 (a very mainstream ski company) listened to McConkey concepts for reverse camber / reverse side cut - and they deserve credit for that. The experimental Pontoon played a huge role in the in the shape of todays 2010 ski's. People need to give the mainstream ski companies some of the credit they are due!
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| I think DPS were the Spats direct replacement |
DPS weren't a Spatula replacement either! DPS is totally independent of Volant....
They are started out as Drake Briony - go google the Tabla Rasa ski 
It wasnt until 2007 that they really started mass production - ground breaking as the Tabla Rasa apparently was.
http://www.dpsskis.com/company/timeline
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| and there were way more than 200 spats around at the time |
Nope - The Volant Spatula (circa 2002) was limited to only 2000 pairs.
Which is why it became a much valued cult classic. And WAY before its time!
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| Sounds like semantics |
Nope! Reverse Camber and Early Rise / Rocker are different things!
And will ski very differently.
This picture here should explain.
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=65416&d=1254430499
'Reverse camber' refers to entire length of the ski / area under the boot.
'Early rise' refers to an up turn at the tip only.
The term 'rocker' has been used to describe surf boards for over 30 years.
But confusingly Salomon are currently using the term Rocker to desribe something slightly different!
(more like early rise!)
You mean Birdios (of Andermatt). And Praxis ?
Both great looking skis. I would love to try them out!
But neither of them were around in 2002.
More like 2007 before they entered the market!
Can I JONG you ?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 29-10-09 10:43; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry, it's like 9am and I haven't been up this early for about 3 months. My grammar's not quite with it. Anyway, "direct replacement", as in Volant went bust and DPS stepped in as the main proponent of reverse/reverse. I was pretty sure I read "200" spats not 2000, hence me saying 200 and disagreeing. You're going to struggle that the different ways of branding rocker aren't semantics - the EP Pro is "early rise" yet has way more dramatic rocker than most. Praxis calls reverse camber "continous curve rocker".
fwiw, I've skiied about 5 different rocker shapes over the last 3 seasons including Praxis Pows, Hellbents, Lhasa Pows, S7s and DPS and owned half of those...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| K2 have been bold and forward thinking with their 2010 range. Using generally subtle tip only rocker, that only appears when the ski is flexed or weighted by the skier. And also totally flat tails on the entire backside range - which helps in release of the turn. Not many other ski firms are currently removing twip tips from their big skis ? |
also, K2 have always had a frontside/backside range (anti-piste/seth, etc) - normally with just tele inserts and less bold graphics. Taking the twins off these isn't exactly revolutionary considering they're aimed at the touring and tele crowd... "bold and forward thinking" sounds like it's straight out of a marketing meeting... don't suppose you're on the K2 payroll?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| So, what you're saying is K2 or any mainstream company didn't get on the rocker bandwagon 'till a few seasons of development and I'm right Wink You can move your focus to whatever else you like it if helps - JONG |
Eh !? You do know that McConkey was sponsored by K2 ?
Volant Spatula was clearly the first reverse / reverse ski in production.
Drake Brionnay with the Tabla Rasa came close...
However K2 clearly brought rocker to a much wider audience with the Pontoon.
And are probably responsible for giving the bandwagon one mighty big push ?
Here is a nice history lesson for all.
http://homeboyski.com/2009/04/01/a-tribute-to-shane-mcconkey-the-story-of-rocker-skis/
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No, I was entirely unaware of that. By the way, what colour is snow?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Volant Spatula was clearly the first reverse / reverse ski in production.
Drake Brionnay with the Tabla Rasa came close... |
this isn't really right. the Tablas used pintail and had an elongated tip but had conventional sidecut. They evolved into the Lotus 120. I have the first year's version of these which have minimal camber (maybe 5mm if you put the skis base to base). Again an elongated tip rather than real rocker and conventional sidecut.
The Lotus 138 was more of an evolution of the spatula (one of the designers of the spatula was involved with designing the L138) and the amount of rocker got much bigger in the 2nd generation of that ski. Now you can order different levels of rocker according to taste
[/nerd]
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Haggis_Trap, DaveC, and it's Birdos not Birdio or Birdios you effin JONGS!!!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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^ Fair play! BIRDOS (sp.!) look like fun skis.
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Arno, JONG yourself, I was misquoted
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You know it makes sense.
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Think we all (especially myself and Dave!) need to remember that it's 'only the internet'.
I am looking forward to hopefully trying out a few of the 2010 rockered skis.
Especially on harder snow... which is important for me!
Up until recently 'rocker/early rise' was considered a technology specifically for soft snow.
But this seems to be changing as the skis become more refined (with both indie and mainstream manufacturers!).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm only playing, was bored and you implied I was going for indie street cred  fwiw I don't think it'll ever be a feature that isn't soft snow aimed - there's no way a shorter eff. edge will be much use on hardpack. I have skied a lot of the shapes on offer though, and the only one in my quiver at the mo is the Lhasa Pow which is my current go-to ski if it's not bulletproof (spyderjon posted it's tip rocker profile earlier). Saying that, I'd really like something 5-point sidecut shaped - WDF redeemer, moment night train/bibby pro, armarda JJ type ski to mimic the best points of reverse/reverse skis without the drawback of not being able to sit on an edge on runouts and traverses.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| I don't think it'll ever be a feature that isn't soft snow aimed - there's no way a shorter eff. edge will be much use on hardpack. |
Yeah - that is my thoughts exactly....
But some of the manufacturers seem to claim that a well designed rocker can actually make a wide ski perform better on hard pack.
Which surprises me... Theory is that the rocker makes the turn intitation easier. Then when you put weight on the ski the rocker is (apparently) flatened out giving the full edge length.
Would love to try out a 2010 Gotama / Coombak vs. the older (unrockered 2009) models....
And verify for myself. The S7, for example, is amazing in soft snow, but totally sucks on hard snow.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DaveC wrote: |
| there's no way a shorter eff. edge will be much use on hardpack.. |
<cough> ice skates: Jeremy Wotherspoon already skates at 87mph. </cough>
Shorter effective edge can be made more use on hardpack by appropriate flex control.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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comprex, your analogy seems pretty facetious? Unless you really think a third of your ski flapping around in the air is something we'll be seeing in racing anytime soon... I'm sure a bin lid can be skied with appropriate flex control too, but it doesn't make it a good idea
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| comprex, your analogy seems pretty facetious? |
Only if you ignore the flex control advances exemplified by existing designs such as Anton Gliders and ignore the research money currently being thrown at the problem regardless of immediate success (c.f. Atomic Varioflex).
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Unless you really think a third of your ski flapping around in the air is something we'll be seeing in racing anytime soon...
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If they are made to ski powder like in Aspen, then I reserve comment.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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buh... OK. So you're saying that rocker/reverse camber is going to be a relevant part of skis that perform well on hard packed snow then, or not? I mean, you might well be right that a shorter eff edge in general is right, but in this thread it doesn't seem applicable whatsoever? I mean, from your last two posts it's like you're saying a racer on hellbents will have better times...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| buh... OK. So you're saying that rocker/reverse camber is going to be a relevant part of skis that perform well on hard packed snow then, or not? |
I am saying that it -can- be, especially if that rocker/reverse camber /also/ allows off-piste versatility.
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I mean, you might well be right that a shorter eff edge in general is right, but in this thread it doesn't seem applicable whatsoever? I mean, from your last two posts it's like you're saying a racer on hellbents will have better times... |
Incomplete deduction:
From my last two posts I -am- saying that a racer in Aspen on r/r skis with flex controlled midsections /could/ have better times than Anne-Sophie Barthet /did/.
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110 waisted anton gliders with tip rocker. teh awsome. Get some Rax fins on the back and you've got a world beater right there.
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| Cunners wrote: |
| 110 waisted anton gliders with tip rocker AND Atomic Varioflex or better. teh awsome. |
FIFY. 
Wave of the future.
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