All TO sKi holidays prices should be "fully" inclusive

A snowHead

The competition watchdog said it has been putting potentially misleading pricing practices under scrutiny to help protect consumers.

The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) is looking at practices such as 'drip pricing' - where the cost of an item grows through the buying process - and 'baiting sales' where only some products are available at discount prices.

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We have e mailed them this morning about ski (and other) TO's that don't include the "full" cost of the trip within the advertised price, on the lame excuse that a tiny proportion of their clients do not use some or other facility.
Ski Holiday cost should include
Flight
Transfers
Hotel
Meals
Lift pass
Equipment or carriage
and if people don't want some or other of these items they should be deducted from the price.

Just so there is no misunderstanding. We have asked that advertised price of a holiday will enable a standard client to participate in the holiday as advertised in the text and accompanying photography.

Please email them if you agree with this.
enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk

A snowHead

I don't agree with the last one, because it is too variable.

You could just require that full Equipment hire (i.e. standard boots and ski/snowboard) be included (then deducted if not required, or increased if "premier" required), but carriage is always much less than even standard equipment, so you can't just have a catch all "equipment or carriage".

The rest, I agree with fully.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I'm not sure I agree.

I wouldn't want lift passes and equipment included in holiday costs. Both are too variable (village pass or resort pass - beginner board or fat skis) for a one size fits all price. What most companies do, and it works, is they have menu pricing for pass, gear, lessons, luggage etc and it works OK.

Loading all of these things in by some sort of legislation will make matters worse, not better. If people are too 'hard of thinking' to work out what its going to cost, I'd rather I didn't share the slopes with them anyway.

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All I have asked is that a holiday (summer or winter) is able to be enjoyed for the advertised price.

I think thats fair enough. Just my opinion so may be wrong.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

bar shaker, In most places, the lift pass is pretty well fixed, and I would guess that well over 90% of customers will take the same option.

It is only some of the large areas which have a choice of local or area pass for 6 days.

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I don't agree with that.

I think it's fair that it if its a TO deal then it includes flights/transfer/accommodation/food but i'm happy for lift pass and kit/carriage to be detailed separately. Not everyone will want to ski for 6 days - for some people buying 1/2 day passes or 4 hour passes might be more suitable. Some people go on wintersports holidays and don't ski (alpine) at all. Do I trust my TO to deliver the lift pass to me at the time I want to use it- not always having be burned in the past (10:30am on Sunday on a Saturday flight!!)

Likewise I'm an adamant believer (if renting) that I should have the choice or which shop in resort I take my business too, and I don't like being pushed/forced or having to go to shop x as that rental is always included in the price. Plus frankly all rental snowboards are pretty rubbish.

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alex_heney,

In this case a local area pass should be supplied - or (in the case of a ski holiday) it would not be possible to have the holiday as advertised.

I have not said that there should not be options. Lift pass that covers other areas, upgrade in equipment, etc. But the basic ski holiday should be there for that cost.

After all it is free

Wayne, whatever happened to consumer choice?

it's nice if a tour operator can offer an "all inclusive price" but requiring people to opt out of things they do not want seems likely to result in people accidentally paying for stuff they do not want, which doesn't seem like a great outcome for the consumer

Arno,
I totally agree with you 100%. People should be able to opt out and, in this case, they should have a discount from the full price.
Also, this is the reason I didn't include lessons in the list. Some people want them and some don't. It is still possible to have the holiday without ski school. So you should not have to include it within the cost. Same goes for insurance as some people have other policies. etc.

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Wayne, were i to book a package, all I would want is for the TO to get me to my accommodation in a fairly seamless fashion and for the accommodation to be on the basis (ie HB/B&B etc) advertised. opting out of other stuff seems (to me) to be less transparent and gives the impression that the TO is charging it hoping you don't notice rather than giving true optionality

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Arno,
Good point. I didn't think of that. I suppose people (me too on summer holidays) have an impression that TO’s are trying to trick them with pricing. So yes, it may seem to be just another marketing ploy

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+1 for Arno. Food, flights, transfers, accommodation, leave it at that.

I'd prefer not to pay extra to fly from a local airport with skis, but that's unlikely to happen.

In the old days TO's use to have the holiday price and then a ski pack(s) option which was a package of lessons hire pases etc, it was up to you to add it or not.

You know it makes sense.

Pretty much all TO brochures I've seen list out costs for lift passes, equipment hire etc., so I have to go along with what Arno said, I really wouldn't want to have to "deselect" all of those options, I think its perfectly transparent enough as it is.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

+2. Gotta agree.

Flights, Transfers, Accom & Board Basis only.

Pass, Equip hire/carriage should appear more prominently, not on the third page of the booking form, though. Under the headline price, on the lead page, in decently sized letters, along with any other supps.

John.

A snowHead

No, I would rather see a clear price menu and be able to select/deselect what I want. One thing that I would like to see regulated is the ever increasing and unreasonable cost of ski carriage with a view to selling you ski hire on the transfer bus. If there is an all inclusive price then I would fear I am subsidising those who buy passes and rent kit through the TO.

We have had beginners in our party the last two years and they are always surprised how much more than the brochure price the holiday actually costs them - before they even set foot on the mountain. So, maybe something likes the rules for showing APR's and total costs for loans would work where they could be required to advertise an all inclusive price, as in "if you want to buy this ski holiday and actually ski whilst on it then it will cost you £x"

A snowHead

Actually, Neilson have introduced this season on their website an automatic lift pass payment; you have to deselect it when going through the booking process. I found this to be much more of a hindrance than a help, and gave me the impression they were trying to "cash in" on the consumer much more.

Now, I perfectly understand that lift passes usually cost the same whether from the TO or direct in resort, this just felt like I was being pushed into booking something I didn't neccessarily want to at that time. Fair enough, have the option to add on options, but not the other way round, it just feels wrong.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

On balance i think it works better as it is. How can I compare the cost of holidays if in each case I had to strip out those things i don't need? You could also be sure that the cost for the essential elements would vary from TO to TO for the same resort.

What I would like to see are Ski pack deals for non-beginners. Seems to make sense to me that if you buy a pass, lessons and rent skis then there should be some discount to be had on the deal - and the TOs should have the buying power to make everyone a winner.

When I do a package I get my own pass and rentals. Last thing i want is to go to 'Welcome Meeting' to pick up my pass or be part of the mad scrum at the TO ski rental. Enduring the transfer is about all I can take.

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If you are talking about holidays described as "fully inclusive" then you might have a point (but do customers still have to buy lunch, drinks etc?).

But many holidays aren't fully inclusive by design: e.g. self-catering, self drive, where it would be mad to include the cost of food, fuel, tolls etc in the price.

What *should* be made illegal is the practice of some operators in making an additional charge for the transfer.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I feel that one should be able to deduct travel to the resort from the price. Ski Esprit have good holidays but they insist on you taking their charter flights. I don't want to take one of their charter flights and don't see why I should have to pay for four flights and transfers that we won't use. Snowbizz are much more flexible over travel and childcare and I wish other TOs worked in the same way.

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I think everyone knows we're not going to get the OFT to even bother with this. But worth raising the point I thought, whilst they are looking at other things along the same lines.
The vast majority of UK skiers go with TO's on full package holiday. Of course there will be some that don't (like many on this forum) but the majority do. So I think the pricing structure should reflect this.
But, as I said, not much chance.

After all it is free

Wayne, I like your reason but disagree with your thinking! A TO should show the price of
1 Flights
2 Transfers
3 Accommodation
4 Food

The extras should be extras. Ski Hire, ski instruction, Lift pass, are all variables and unlike some that only go on summer holidays the all inclusive may be perfect for the lads spending their day at the pool drinking beer and have the full English for breakfast, Fish and chips and a pie for lunch and pints for dinner! Skiers tend to be more discerning and know from their experience what is involved in a ski holiday!

I think there should be an indication as Wayne says. Maybe the standard price flight/acc/transfers and then in brackets perhaps the all-in price which would include all the neccessaries. Of course lessons might not be in there, but equipment and lift passes probably should. Actually thinking about it, that's probably how we got to the system we'ev got now. My children want all equipment, my wife wants just skis and I don't need anything, so a single kit price wouldn't make much sense.

I would like to see an easier way to compare like with like. But for me it's always the bottom line price. The PP price and all the extras is the total cost of the holiday less spending money. It's boring but I usually just go through and add them all up.

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Maybe the Tour Ops could give away a free calculator with every brochure for those who cannot add up

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I don't agree at all. I almost never eat meals in the hotel (other than breakfast) if i get the option. I would also object to lift pass being included, as in some resorts my instructor licence gets me a discount Very Happy

Also, what about the non skiing grandparents who come to enjoy the view and look after the kids? Too many variables.

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+1 for Arno.

Wayne's original suggestion sounds a little self serving. Plus discounting from a fixed price is never as much as has been added on in the first place.

You know it makes sense.

I agree with the OP to some extent, to sneak an extra ski trip in this year i've been looking at Bulgaria as on headline prices this appears very cheap . . . however once you have been through the brouchure adding up all the different extras it isnt anywhere near as cheap as you first thought plus you have to trawl all over the brochure to find each of the additional charges, its very easy to miss things . . .

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I sympathise, but I think there is inherent variability in many offers and that in current circumstances, state-sponsored consumer protection relating to the indulgences of relatively well-off people is something that we might consider cutting back on.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Wayne, I think it's a very good idea.

I think you're meeting so much resistance here because most of these people who post on this site have skied for many years and so organising all the little extras is obvious to them.

I personally don't think all the extras like ski hire are obvious to many recreational skiers so the opt-out scheme sounds good.

Perhaps the holiday should have 2 prices associated with it, thus keeping everyone happy:
- all inclusive price
- travel and accommodation alone

snowHead

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I don't think this is at all practical - there are simply too many variations in what different clients want (frequently an issue even amongst people travelling together in my experience - group of two families staying in a chalet together; one family flies, one drives, one want want big area passes, one local, different ski kit / board requirements etc etc).

As long as a TO has transparent pricing (ie there aren't 1001 hidden supplements unless you take that one ropey room overlooking the bins at the back of the chalet) then I'd say the current system works for most people. Different fims do price in different ways but should be able to give you the bottom line cost (for your exact needs) in the course of a 2 minute phone call - if they can't don't book with them!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

The headline price should include accommodation, the stated board, any unavoidable room supplements (i.e. all remaining rooms in chalet have supplements) and travel including transfers. Everything else is optional and required in so many different permutations - area pass vs local pass, beginner pass with upgrade wanted at different points during the stay depending on confidence/skill/fitness, skis but no boots, boots, skis, ski carriage for 1 or more of party etc. There are also some ski schools who do inclusive lift passes and lesson packages... As for lessons, everyone is different - you even get some weirdos who want to learn in French, some who want all day lessons and some who want a couple of private lessons. None of these could be included in a "headline price" for anything other than a complete beginners' package, where you would assume that everyone wants hire and lessons and no ski carriage. Even then the skipass would be optional as it is not always necessary for beginners (at least not for the full duration).

I prefer without lift pass and ski hire. Unless the exchange rate is likely to move substantially in the right direction between booking the holiday and arrival in the resort, you might as well have the money from lift pass and ski hire in your bank account until that point, rather than earning interest in the TO's account. Gives a month or two extra to save up as well! Last year would have been a good idea to prebook ski passes in sterling. This year, hopefully we won't get much than £-Euro parity, so you are unlikely to make savings, but currency speculation has brought down banks...

I haven't seen any advantages to booking a lift pass through the TO other than

(a) Forgot to book online in advance; and
(b) Couldn't be bothered to go to ticket office on arrival/following morning;
(c) The rep was there and could phone the person who was bringing all the other passes over so they would arrive at the same time as everyone else's; or

(d) Accommodation deal included ski pass as standard.

(a), (b) and (c) applied to me in Tignes last year - although I did go to the ESF office and the hire shop, that was enough. No passes offered on coach as due to Chambery Airport being total carnage we were not on a regular transfer, but rather on a bus to a different resort meeting a taxi somewhere like moutiers/bourg.

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I agree with everyone. Smile

In all seriousness, the ONLY thing that really annoys me is the pricing based on "full occupancy" - 4 people in a studio or a room with 2 double beds. Come on, how oftewn does that happen? If you look at the price for just two people, it''s half as much again. I just don't bother looking at studios anymore...

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After all it is free

nbt, that is what annoyed me too, particularly when we skied in Canada. It was impossible to find a reasonably priced trip to Whistler unless we shared a room with our 16 and 17 year olds with two double beds. Banff option was supposed to solve that but didn't (long story) Supplements for two rooms were stupid money, so we DIY'd and booked a condo .

Helen Beaumont, nbt, It really is annoying, having to fork out a hefty lump for an unused bed Shocked

The most annoying this is though the TO is pocketing the dosh, pure and simple. If you book a hotel room in the US or Canada, theres a standard rate for the room. If two people book it they dont pay any suppliment.

As for TO giving you one price and then deductinig items you dont want - bad idea. Some people may wish to take a winter holiday in a snowy climate and not ski. all we are doing is taking a winter holiday and a snow resort. We then often decide to participate in local sporting activities that are available in the area wink

Just price for accom(and desired board arrangements), flights and transfers the rest can be booked as required. whats wrong with this simple model ?

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Bones, I was being charged an underoccupancy supplement and the beds were being used by my kids in some cases. Because the occupants were children, and recieved a reduced rate, the apartment/bedroom was classed as under-occupied. Often meant the price was almost identical to charging for four adults. I would have no objection to a transparent pricing policy, but to offer free or reduced price children's places, then charge their parents for empty beds is unbelievable.

Help!!

All TO sKi holidays prices should be "fully" inclusive

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