 Poster: A snowHead
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Skunked by whiteout conditions 
Sorry if this question has been posed recently. Just curious, how often have you had a ski holiday ruined by numerous consecutive days of very poor visibility in the Alps?
In the US this is almost unheard of, except for perhaps Pacific Northwest. True above-timberline-terrain (no trees in any direction for hundreds of meters) rarely constitutes more than a small minority of a resort's ski terrain in the US because of our latitude. Even on heavy snow days there are usually plenty of treelined runs or glades that you can utilize to enhance visibility and depth perception for skiing.
Thought of this question after reflecting on a morning last April at Arapahoe Basin, one of the highest elevation ski areas in Colorado (more than 12000 feet/3900 meters), when I experienced very bad visibility conditions during a storm. It forced us to leave the upper 30% of the mountain and follow snow fences to move to lower elevation glades and treelined trails. Later in the day brilliant sunshine returned.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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never in 20+ years of skiing the Alps.
What makes you think there isn't plenty of treelined runs in the Alps?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Same as kitenski, never in the Alps. The only time I've been in a whiteout was 2 days in Steamboat, Colorado.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Can anyone translate? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I can only remember one day in Passo Tonale March 2006. Tonale is high and when the cloud came in I was right in the thick of it. Wasn't so bad that I couldn't make out other skiers and piste markers though. However, it was a good day to ski down to Ponte di Legno amongst the trees, much better visibility down there. The following day I had glorious sunshine and fresh snow and took the bus to Madonna Di Campiglio, brilliant!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Whiteouts are great. The pistes are nice and quiet.
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Once in almost 40 years of skiing, although I have chosen not to ski on occasions because of lousy weather I've only been unable to ski due to incredible snowfall once, on that occasion teh avalanches were coming down every few hours so they couldn't open lifts, runs etc for a few days
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| Quote: |
The pistes are nice and quiet
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No, there are loads of other people out there; you just can't see 'em.  In 7 seasons I've rarely known more than a day at a time of whiteout conditions. However (and all this has been argued before) in a real whiteout, as opposed to a bit of a fog, trees are useless because you won't see them until you hit them. Those days when it's nice to ski below the treeline, to give you that perspective etc., but can then keep up a decent speed are days of poor visibility/flat light, NOT whiteouts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Can only recall three proper whiteouts: one in North America and two in Europe.
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Only ever twice, once in Whistler, once in Tignes.
Oh! And once on the Haute Route - now THAT was scary.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Flat light, yes, often, but a whiteout - never for a week, just for a day or two.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Adrian wrote: |
| Whiteouts are great. The pistes are nice and quiet. |
Whiteouts or near whiteouts are appalling. All you see is white - no trees, no markers, nothing. It feels incredibly surreal. Flat light is another matter, and whilst a challenge, can be enjoyable, simply realising that you can cope.
I can remember just one day in a near whiteout, fortunately with a great guide, Andy Perkins. It can't have been truly a whiteout, because somehow I could see him just ahead, and he knew where he was. But it was like being in a live video game, with him skiing ahead against a background of white, and me blindly skiing with him straight down the fall line of a not-very-steep slope. Not something I want to repeat.
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lucky33, I had a week once where it snowed heavily every day. Bloody brilliant it was too.
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You know it makes sense.
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As a few have said real whiteouts are rare*, there may have been some last season but generally if the weather was that bad the higher lifts were shut so you wouldn't have known. I had a moment a few years ago in La Plagne when we descended through a thick low cloud, visibility must have been less than 5m which was reminiscent of a mild whiteout without the wind, fortunately after a couple of hundred metres we came out the bottom. I've had horrific conditions in Avoriaz too where it was so cold and windy your hair would freeze to bars on chairlifts (painful when you stand up!) but I wouldn't term it a whiteout as you could see a good 10m.
* except in Scotland where they are termed decent conditions. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
It can't have been truly a whiteout, because somehow I could see him just ahead, and he knew where he was.
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I skied with my OH on a day like that, down a very easy run but a very bendy one, with drops off the side. He insisted I went in front, and kept very close, so when I disappeared off the edge he could just stop in time, then make kind and encouraging noises when I side-stepped back up again, desperate not to lose a ski. It's almost entirely tree lined (basically it's a road through the woods) but the trees were invisible.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| snowball wrote: |
| Flat light, yes, often, but a whiteout - never for a week, just for a day or two. |
and me...
The good thing about bad vis is that it often brings in the snow so that is a good thing...
I've had some very memorable days in bad light... and some not so good ones...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Winterhighland - no spots of rain on the lens? Beautiful weather!
I got caught in the tail end of that hurricane last year that swept across france and spain in january, truly horrible conditions, but only for 1 day. By far the worst conditions I've ever seen in France, but rest of the week was lovely.
I think the Alps get unsettled weather more than the States - a storm rolls in and then rolls out and low pressure systems don't seem to hang around as long, so though you might get cloud and fog, it won't (usually, in my experience) settle in for a week at a time. Also the huge vertical available means that you can ski above or below dense cloud a lot of the time.
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Only a couple of individual days in all the years I've been skiing. Soll and probably Tignes, but I can hardly recall them, so that must be an indicator as to how frequent it has been.
Skiing in a whiteout - use the force luke. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In 60+ weeks of skiing in the Alps I have had quite a few whiteout days. These dont occur often and normally the following day is great powder and bluebird skies. Couldnt put an accurate figure but in those (calculates...) maybe 64 weeks I have skied no more than 10 real whiteout days. I do quite often enjoy them, as has been said, the pistes are empty and if you stick to stuff you know whilst using the piste markers (or of course get in the trees) it can make for a good days skiing.
Now NZ...thats a different story, I just got back from 13-14 weeks of skiing at Cardrona. The weather on that mountain is some of the worst I have ever been in, dont think we had more than 8/9 days of sustained good weather at a time! if it snowed it was horizontal if it was clear it was often very windy! One day the road shut stranding everyone on the hill, too many people crashing their cars into the ditch in the wind/snow. Other times the chairs were shut with people still on board for almost 45 minutes (hitting the pylons in the wind).
The thing is there are several ski fields in NZ with far worse weather! Went to a race at Mt Hutt and had piste patrol pulling you off the peak chair as you were literally pushed so hard into the seat you couldnt get off! Oh yeah, not a tree in sight so nothing whatsoever to help with the visability.
(still had an awesome time though despite the some truly painful and horrendous training days)
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R555MAC, your recollections from NZ sound so much like my experiences of homegrown skiing.
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moffatross, haha, I can imagine so, still its all worth it for the good days!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Out of my 18 days of skiing. I've had only 2 cloudy days, none of really bad flat light. The rest have been bright sunshine 
Been blessed with great weather and conditions when skiing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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lucky33 - the chance of a sudden thick whiteout day it's why they like to have plenty of mogul runs. If you can't see, ski by braille.
Bumps = route down. If you run out of moguls, proceed with caution.
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After two visits I would suggest Obertauern gets a lot of flat light and semi whiteouts with few treelined runs to retreat to. Webcams transmitted on local tv showing multpile angles from neighbouring lower resorts showed much better visibility generally so there's definitely a price to be paid for guaranteed snow. Similarly lowish Zell am See was fine early last December but our instructor pointed out that Kaprun had been shrouded in cloud for much of the time.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
The pistes are nice and quiet
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No, there are loads of other people out there; you just can't see 'em. ;-) |
You can't hear them as well either.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've only experienced a true whiteout once - in Whistler. I was standing still at the side of the piste and wondering why I felt queasy and dizzy. Then I realised I was actually travelling sideways quite quickly! I could barely make out my knees when I looked down, never mind my skis or the ground.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I consider myself a reasonable skier but if the weather turns bad and i can't see much in front of me i loose all confidence. Went over to the Swiss side at Avoriaz once, the weather came in and then we had to get back over the mountain and down to Avoriaz, it ws hell. One thing you soon find out is cheap gear is no good in crummy weather, decent goggles are a must.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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schuss in boots had the experience of seeing me in a whiteout in La Plagne. I am a wreck, I feel queasy and want to vomit, bit like sea sickness. mrsfatcontroller has seen me a few times in whiteouts and finds it funny. I now head in once a whiteout starts, they terrify me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I love a whiteout. Yes real ones. The feeling of letting go is really quite special. I wouldn't want to be in a real whiteout somewhere I didn't know like the back of my hand though.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Its quite fun when you are in one... if you know where you are. I do feel seasick afterwards though.
Worst whiteouts I have had - Zermatt, Morgins
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I got stuck on the piste for 30 minutes waiting for a slight break in the weather so I could see the next piste marker and make a dash for it.
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I could barely make out my knees when I looked down, never mind my skis or the ground.
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these are genuine white-out experiences and many skiers will never have encountered them. Anyone talking about using trees (which are necessarily a few metres away from the side of a marked piste) or following the piste-markers is not speaking of white-outs. In a genuine white-out you can only see a piste marker when you're really close to it and you have no chance whatsoever of seeing two at a time.
I once encountered a white-out on one of my occasional forays on a snowboard. I was on an easy piste which I knew very well, in a nice position, well balanced, felt I was coping well with it. Feeling rather pleased with myself, actually. Then, as the mist cleared a little, so I could see the ground, I noticed that I actually wasn't moving at all......it was a gentle gradient, there was quite a bit of new loose snow on top of it, and I was going nowhere. Felt a right idiot - and was glad nobody else could possibly have noticed.
There are a whole range of less dramatic conditions of poor visibility which present their own problems, and can sap people's confidence (especially flat light where an entire field of moguls can disappear entirely). In poor visibility trees are a great help and piste markers essential.
But in a white out? Just head home if you can, or to the nearest restaurant, and hope for something better.
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In two seasons of daily skiing in Tignes (One of the least tree infested resorts in the Alps.) I have had to ski by sense of smell about twice really. I was with guests for one of those times and they were seriously disorientated and I had to take one of them down between my skis and her other half's in a three man snowplough (Or fat bitch sandwich as I later recall terming it.) The temperature had dropped considerably and some of the party were showing signs of frostbite so we took the fastest route home with just a stop for warming up/seeing if it improved.
It does get challenging if it's a whiteout up there, but by god it shows you whether you can ski or not!
I would say Tignes is representative of quite a lot of high Alpine resorts especially the Tarentaise, although other than VT most have more trees to use/crash into.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kaiser, "(Or fat bitch sandwich as I later recall terming it.)" How very dare you, it's a slow metabolism issue!
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| PsychoBabble wrote: |
| Kaiser, "(Or fat bitch sandwich as I later recall terming it.)" How very dare you, it's a slow metabolism issue! |
Sorry PsychoBabble I didn't think we'd meet again here! 
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