 Poster: A snowHead
|
Hi all
I've been deliberating for a while now whether I should get a touring setup or just carry on boot packing it everyhwere.
Even given the amount of skiing i've done and seasons etc i've never toured at all which is kind of sad. Maybe it's been the resorts i've been based in that have had such great back country from short (and long) walks from the lifts, like the Espace Killy, Chamonix, Squaw Valley, Jackson Hole etc...
I also now have 2 young kids so time is of a premium and I certainly can't see me having a whole week away purely able to ski for myself and go long distances into the back country. All that said often I see people skinning and think it looks fun and opens up more options.
I suppose my main question is how long does the skinning phase need to be to make it worth while? You have to get the gear on and off etc?
I'm off to Jackson Hole again this year for a couple of weeks and a further week in Tignes and i've always boot packed it like many people do there but that said i'd make such great progress on skins but is it worth it? I've got the option of some K2 Sidestash at a good price and i'm either going to mount a Duke or maybe Dynafit as a touring setup or just do what i know works and pop a Pivot 18 on there (Courtesy of our very own Spyder Jon!). I have my Stockli (DP Pro +) for more varied days and charging!
Appreciate any advice.
Cheers
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
My personal take would be to go for the touring set up - that way you always have the choice...
With modern kit there is not really any great loss in performance and a set of skins weighs very little in the bottom of a day pack. Skinning in powder is much easier than boot-packing, so even if its for short stashes its worth it in my book..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
I've never skinned myself, but having seen some friends do it on a recent trip, they got to places I would never have boot packed to, so I'll be trying it this year! Boot packing is ok for solid snow/going up, but not so much fun in deep snow trying to cover distance...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| offpisteskiing wrote: |
My personal take would be to go for the touring set up - that way you always have the choice...
With modern kit there is not really any great loss in performance and a set of skins weighs very little in the bottom of a day pack. Skinning in powder is much easier than boot-packing, so even if its for short stashes its worth it in my book.. |
That was the way I was kind of going in my head I must admit.
How long does it take to "skin up"  and take them off etc on average?
Can you for example put the skins on and then skin the flat(ish) section and then you get to the steep boot pack that's established and you'd then keep the skins on and climb up this section with them on your pack? Sorry if it's a daft question !! Dont think I recall seeing anyone with skins on skis on a pack so that when you get to the top of that section you can return to skinning.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
no problem keeping skins on while you put your skis on your pack.
the whole skin on/off thing is pretty quick once you have done it a few times (ie less than 5 mins). one route I do quite frequently is probably a 20min walk. if someone has put a bootpack in, you might just as well make use of their hard work. if the snow is fresh, skins will get you there more quickly (i have happy memories of cruising past people putting a bootpack into thigh deep snow). some people love skinning and use skins whenever they can - it's more a horses for courses thing for me
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cheers Arno, which binding / ski combo do you use out of interest as I know you are a bit of a Look Pivot junky like me too !!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
altis, thanks for that stoke......those pics have really got the juices flowing....that shoulder in la plagne looks awesome........
okbye
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
altis, yeah nice pics.. I have a couple almost identical to that first one ! Did a season there in 98/99 and it was epic !
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
And, to demonstrate the point, here's Mrs A on the top of Mont Jovet, after we'd booted up the ridge, with her skis on her pack with the skins still on. I have to say she wasn't smiling like that when we crossed the ridge. Neither was I mind!
Yer, I reckon about 5 mins on and 5 mins off is about right - unless you are in a rush!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I have "toured" a lot with snowboarders using snowshoes.
On short accents where the track was in they were as quick or quicker.
However IMO boot packing is potentially dangerous on glaciers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
altis, I like the frame on the photo, is that a plug in?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
errr... gear junkie generally...
I have XXLs and Legend Pros with Dukes
I will have this season some DPS Wailer 105 with Dynafit
Dukes are a great binding for someone reluctantly moving from burly alpine bindings although if you are fussy about stack height they might take a bit of getting used to. also you can use any boot with them
dynafits get more compelling every year with the new burlier boots, but they will never have quite the same security and convenience as step in bindings like Dukes
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| jbob wrote: |
| altis, I like the frame on the photo, is that a plug in? |
It's a script what I wrote.
In fact it's two: one to pull all the EXIF info out of a bunch of files and pop it in a CSV and then another to use that info to tart up the photos.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
There is skinning and skinning, are you going be using AT boots? With the Dukes also being such a bomber alpine binding, there is no reason really to not mount those and at least have the option as long as you are not doing any serious touring. In soft snow covering distance skinning is a godsend. Many routes are best done with a combination of both bootpacking and skinning; skin the flatter bits (often the approach) and when you are either having to silly amounts of kick turns or it it obvously very steep, get the skis off and boot up.
It's not really about time for me, it is about how much effort/energy is required and then selecting the most efficient option. Growing up XC skiing in Norway I'm kind of biased towards selecting skinning.
Also, never boot along the skin track unless you really want to wee wee people off but I'm sure you already know that!
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 21-10-09 20:48; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| narc wrote: |
There is skinning and skinning, are you going be using AT boots? With the Dukes also being such a bomber alpine binding, there is no reason really to not mount those and at least have the option as long as you are not doing any serious touring. In soft snow covering distance skinning is a godsend. Many routes are best done with a combination of both bootpacking and skinning; skin the flatter bits (often the approach) and when you are either having to silly amounts of kick turns or it it obvously very steep, get the skis off and boot up.
It's not really about time for me, it is about how much effort/energy is required and then selecting the most efficient option. Growing up XC skiing in Norways I'm kind of biased towards selecting skinning.
Also, never boot along the skin track unless you really want to wee wee people off but I'm sure you already know that! |
Hi.. thanks for advice.
I'd be using Alpine boots (Lange L10) or if I can't get a new liner that fits these OK as the zip fits are on knackered i'll have to take the plunge and get new boots  Super Banshee or the like was SZK advice as they fit my feet so well..... i'm at this stage when loads of my gear has done 11 years or so ! I really dont want to compromise the boot performance and move to a full AT boot. My boots are very much a one boot does all.
Re Dukes... I suppose i'm put off by the weight of them. As this ski isn't going to be my "go to" ride than i'm thinking more along the lines of a Dynafit. This setup is for deep days or when I want to hike for my turns and that will be decided at the start of the day and planned. So i'm prepared to compromise on the binding I think. I just dont see the point of putting a mega heavy binding on a ski that you are then going to go uphill on. If it was a quiver of one then I agree there would be no reason not to put a Duke or Baron on there.
I'm with you entirely about the option of being able to skin when it's suitable and then boot pack when it isn't. This is what i've been mulling over as now i've been slogging away on skinnng tracks staying in my alpine bindings and polling often !! Never ideal !!
I just didn't really know how easy it was to get going and what the compromises were etc..
Really appreciate the advice on this thread.
Alex
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 21-10-09 13:56; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Alex A wrote: |
I'd be using Alpine boots (Lange L10) or if I can't get a new liner that fits these OK as the zip fits are on knackered i'll have to take the plunge and get new boots Super Banshee or the like was SZK advice as they fit my feet so well..... i'm at this stage when loads of my gear has done 11 years or so ! I really dont want to compromise the boot performance and move to a full AT boot. My boots are very much a boot does all.
Re Dukes... I suppose i'm put off by the weight of them. As this ski isn't going to be my "go to" ride than i'm thinking more along the lines of a Dynafit. |
you realise Dynafit -> new boots anyway? which will be lower performance that your alpine boots (although the gap is closing)?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Alex A, I mix touring and boot-packing regularly and take it as the conditions dictate with skins always in my pack. To that end I now have two pairs of DP Pros (193 and 201) with Fritschi FRs on and will be getting a pair of DP Pro + (201) for this season also with a FR set up. Because of the type of ski I use I prefer to stick with proper alpine boots - speed machine 14s - as Arno says the gap is closing but still too wide if you're anything like me... (100 kg madman!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Powderhound wrote: |
| Alex A, I mix touring and boot-packing regularly and take it as the conditions dictate with skins always in my pack. To that end I now have two pairs of DP Pros (193 and 201) with Fritschi FRs on and will be getting a pair of DP Pro + (201) for this season also with a FR set up. Because of the type of ski I use I prefer to stick with proper alpine boots - speed machine 14s - as Arno says the gap is closing but still too wide if you're anything like me... (100 kg madman!) |
OK.. now we're talking.. someone skiing on silly stiff skis like me and also i;m 95kg.. hoping to be 90kg soon
I love my 193cm DP Pro + but just not all the time hence this second setup. Crikey - the 201cm is a serious bit of kit !!
So the Fritschi FR's are compatible with my Lange boots but lighter than a Duke? That sounds like the option then...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Factors / Titans / Zzeus really are viable "do-it-all" boots - swappable soles to allow DIN / ISO & Vibram touring.
Radium / Virus etc are awesome boots that will ski pretty close to an alpine boot. Restricted to touring bindings though.
If you are buying a second set and £ is not an issue, go Dynafit. Beware though:
| laseranimal wrote: |
Dynafits are insidious little contraptions:
They come in these little tiny square boxes that are probably no bigger then 4"x4" with a flip top that you can open up to peer inside at two tiny lightweight toe and heel pieces. You'll quickly learn they're not like other bindings, for not just any shop can mount them, particularly on the East Coast where only 3 shops and one guy in Amherst(whose basement will forevermore be the envy of mine) have jigs. Then there's that nagging boot compatibility issue which forces you to jettison your previous well loved "non dynafit compatible" AT boots for shiny "new to you" compatible boots.
But you start to notice the weight loss, and you enjoy touring more. Then you realize that the downhill interface is more solid then anything you've ever skied before. But it doesn't stop there, because you start to realize that your old skis are MUCH too heavy and that new lighter skis would help you shave even MORE pounds.
By now you're hooked, but you don't realize it yet. You start missing your friends at the ski area and you begin spending more time in the BC. Then, your sleep begins to suffer because you've started to wake up at ungodly hours of the morning just to squeeze in a few laps before having to show up at work. You buy a postage scale and begin weighing items from your pack and discarding or modifying them to lose still more pounds. Zippers and Straps are sliced off your jackets and packs as you still attempt to go lighter still. Your "one dynafit setup" soon becomes MULTIPLE pairs and you begin to have a boot quiver of compatible boots. You become a zealot, mocking those others who ski "inferior" bindings like Fritichi's, Naxos, and even begin pitying the primitive tele-skier who is only now crawling out of the primordial ooze to embrace the free pivot  and you only associate yourself with "other" dynafit users.
You begin to total up the amount of work and family time you've missed and the amount of new gear you've had to purchase, but it doesn't stop there....
Your family and friends start to worry as you begin to think that randonee' racing and lycra bodysuits look like a interesting hobby, you trade in your 4 buckle alpine boots and Volant Spatulas for drilled out F1's and 160 cm skinny skis. They attempt an intervention, but its too late, because you're too far gone. You regularly eat Powerbar gel while touring, and have developed an appreciation for the subtle differences in energy bars. You carry a jetboil stove rather then excess water which would weigh you down. You bust out 7k vert before work, and don't bother with things that don't involve at least 2 miles of approach. You start skiing heli-terrain first and manage to track it out before 8:45 am on weekends. You relish breaking trail, and you don't ski with anyone who isn't using carbon fibre cross country ski poles and dynafits because you're tired of waiting for the slow crew.
By the time you finally realize that you're life is in complete shambles and that heroin would have been much simpler and cheaper, the season ends.......but you merely begin hiking with skis on your back to ski snowfields that begin to grow smaller and farther away. You contemplate being able to ski year round and whether that season pass to a ski area that you once coveted above all else is really all that its cracked up to be. Your wife divorces you, knowing that she will never be able to compete with the mistress that is your precious dynafits. After a while you realize that sanding your topsheets and stone grinding your bases only does so much to lower your weight penalty, so you begin drilling holes in your boots and replacing the metal buckles with shoelaces. You begin searching the European black market to find a pair of the elusive all titanium dynafits until one day you're picked up after storming into a hospital with a gun, a pair of dynafit inserts, and your dynafit mounted skis demanding that somehow a doctor surgically implant the fittings into your feet.
be warned, once you buy dynafits, forever will they dominate your life
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alex A, I am "big boned" like you and Powderhound - might not be quite such an aggressive skier, but I like to let em run sometimes. sometimes it works, sometimes i test the patience of my skiing partners as I extract myself and sundry equipment from a big snowy hole (as parlor will attest...)
no matter, i am going to be pulling the trigger on some titans in the hope that they really will "do it all". i won't be selling my alpine boots just yet though
also... I used to use FRs and was happy enough with them. having used Dukes, I wouldn't go back
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Alex A wrote: |
How long does it take to "skin up" and take them off etc on average?
Can you for example put the skins on and then skin the flat(ish) section and then you get to the steep boot pack that's established and you'd then keep the skins on and climb up this section with them on your pack? Sorry if it's a daft question !! Dont think I recall seeing anyone with skins on skis on a pack so that when you get to the top of that section you can return to skinning.
|
About 20 seconds for Pierra Menta racers, anything up to 20minutes for other folks, 2-5 minutes being a reasonable timeframe...
Yep skis with skins on the pack is commonly done. The only time I might try & avoid it would be for a long boot pack in really warm weather (same deal as leaving skins on skis sitting in roasting sun - good for transferring glue from the skin to the ski base...), but then you wouldn't really want to be doing a long bootpack in warm weather.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Arno wrote: |
| one route I do quite frequently is probably a 20min walk. if someone has put a bootpack in, you might just as well make use of their hard work. |
I'm guessing the wander up the Pyramide? There were a couple last season that insisted on skinning up, when the bootpack was well established. We beat them to the top by a good 10 minutes. OTOH walking the 200m from the bootpack to the impo start took me about as long as it did to get up in the first place 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Swirly, indeed but bootpackers on that bit get pwned by skinners when the snow is deep
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
firebug, saw a few people with them last season, I just used snowshoes. I didn't think the skis I saw would be long enough to offer much advantage, maybe making travel a bit easier given a skinning motion is more efficient than walking, but I still wouldn't trust them to keep me falling through a snow bridge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I use approach skis when touring with a snowboard. Mine are the Climb system. Not cheap but half the price of a split board. See www.climb.co.at for more details.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
parlor, thanks for that! Will maybe leave the Dynafits till next season....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Swirly, snowrider, thanks! will check that link out. I might borrow some for a day and see how I get on
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
firebug, saw a pretty gnarly boarder using these when I was touring in the Ecrins a couple of years ago. can see they would be more efficient on long approaches because of the skinng motion as Swirly says. anyway, this geezer had started in the valley, ticked off the N face of col du roche faurio (700m-ish at 45* IIRC) then carried on up to the hut we were staying at... well over 2000m height gain. he then cooked myself and the other people in my party a very memorable omlette so basically he's my hero but i digress
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Arno, great photos... Where were you last year, I can't quite work out from the backdrops...?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Powderhound, my work computer can't cope with my photo website so not completely sure which ones you're talking about! think there are some pics from my "Steep Vanoise" week up there which was based in Bourg St Maurice and had a bit of Espace Killy, Paradiski and St Foy. There's a TR on here if you do a search for "Vanoise"
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
I was looking at Steep Vanoise in fact. We were that way in April but it was a bit late for touring to find decent snow and while in Courchevel in Feb there was too much (av risk 4) to venture anywhere further than grand couloir and similar. Also, when it is as good as last season I never seem to take the time to get the camera out enough...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Arno, I'm in the same boat as you. Very tempted by Titans to (hopefully?) improve upon Endorphins downhill performance and get into Dynafit bindings.
I have Legend Pros and Kuros with Dukes and the Endorphin's aren't stiff enough for the down. On the other hand skinning in Alpine Boots (Nordica Speed Machine 14's) is not much fun on the up.
Don't know the Wailers but Kuro's open up a whole new world in powder. They are amazing.
ps enjoyed your Vanoise photos - looks like you had a cracking few days!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I am wondering if there is a limit to how wide the ski is before it starts to 'blow' out a softer AT boot.
I am thinking big burly binding, torsionally stiffish wide ski and something has got to give..????
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JT, there were plenty of people in La Grave skiing big skis with BD Factors (mostly with dynafit bindings.) my concern is that AT boots are getting stiffer but the cuff is still lower than Alpine boots. This helps for walking but does make a difference on the downhill no matter how stiff the boot
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
bobinch, in CH you can now go into many ski shops and even supermarkets (Klosters Migros for example) and they will redo the soles of your boot and put on a vibram equivalent. As far as the up goes, I undo the top 2 clips and leave the booster strap done up quite loosely and because it stretches it gives some sympathy to your shins... nothing like an AT boot though. For step-kicking and front-pointing Alpines are second to none though; the harder plastics allow for no unwanted slippage. (unless the toe snaps off as happened a few years ago).
Arno, spoke to SZK in his shop last year and he put me off the Factors as not fully resolved yet...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Powderhound, have seen a few reports of the walk mode in Factors breaking and the inner looked a bit over-engineered to me. I will be placing my order for some Titans soon though!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowrider, what sort of approaches have you been doing on them? would you trust them on glaciated terrain where skiers maybe wouldn't climb roped up? How do you think they compare to snowshoes? Also out of interest how much do you weigh? I'm quite big and 110 cm doesn't seem like much surface area! Also traverses, what are they like given the lack of a steel edge?
Slightly off topic I know.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
