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Angulation = old school?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
kitenski, Nope, though I have had a glass or two as well.

To get the tips parallel you will have to avoid any counter. The suggestion from FastMan wasn't to eliminate the counter, just change how it was achieved by moving the inside hip forwards instead of outside one back relative to the feet. Moving the outside hip back gets you into the position that Nicole Hosp was in when she pulled her knee apart this afternoon.
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rjs wrote:
just change how it was achieved by moving the inside hip forwards instead of outside one back relative to the feet. .


ok I'll bite, what does doing that mean to your skis/tips????????
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Quote:

outside hip back gets you into the position that Nicole Hosp was in when she pulled her knee apart this afternoon


RJS is correct counter isnt a bad when done the way fastman suggests... but nicole showed is a clear reason why inner tip lead can be a bad thing
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What happened to this person? Sounds nasty.
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kitenski wrote:
ok I'll bite, what does doing that mean to your skis/tips????????

Just means having pressure on the front of the outside ski instead of the tail.
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rjs wrote:
kitenski wrote:
ok I'll bite, what does doing that mean to your skis/tips????????

Just means having pressure on the front of the outside ski instead of the tail.


Ok, I get that (thanks for a nice plain english answer), and you achieve it by driving the hip forward only, or by also driving the foot forwards in the boot to feel pressure on the shin (or not....)...and what affect does it have on your tips????????
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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Quote:

Moving the outside hip back gets you into the position that Nicole Hosp was in when she pulled her knee apart this afternoon.

actually, it looked to me like a lot of todays womens GS skiers were agressively inclining/banking at the beginning of their turns, so much so that all the weight was on their inside ski. with the outer ski quite often thrown into the air by the speed of the transition. Am I right, or is this quite the opposite of racing of the 80s/90s, or as we are still taught is good technique (to balance on the outside ski)?
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Back in the days of SX 92's I did a couple of Ali Ross's clinics and they were all about angulation and edging, but it never got as complex as how you were positioned relative to your CoG. His approach was based around countering the "pull" in a turn - one exercise had you skiing in pairs holding a ski pole between you and try to pull each other over in turn. You could spot skiers he had trained by the wide stance, wide arms etc. And whatever you skied on, sooner or later you got sent to the hire shop for 2m slalom skis ( I still have a set of Dynastar Coupe du Monde SL's in the loft).
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GrahamN wrote:

- actually though, if we're balancing on one edge, we CAN'T move the COM just by angulating - as there's no way of exerting torque on a single edge; what we actually do (if say we want to start a transition) is increase the edge angle by angulating, so the turn tightens, and the current position of the COM allows us to fall slightly to the outside of the turn and the body starts moving over the skis for the next turn. This is just like when riding a bike, a left turn has to start with a brief right hand (counter-)turn, otherwise you just carry on in a straight line (even if you bike turns to the left ).

Not on a bike, but how about extension? Doesn't that upset the state of balance to allow a new turn to start? Not so important for normal turns as quite two footed towards phase 3, but this has practical implications for the performance of one ski carved turns that I'm trying to learn.
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slikedges, I think you might be right. We're able to change our position in many ways even while balanced on one edge, while remaining dynamically stable. Our COM can be moved very easily, although not by angulation alone.
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slikedges, you may have a point, but I think that when I do this the extension only comes into play once the COM is acting outside the old turning ski edge - and largely after I've changed edges. I think you can only really project yourself into the new turn once the action of the COM is on the same side of the supporting ski as the centre of the new turn - you can then push your body in the right direction. Actually, as we're always changing the radius of turn and mixture of radial and gravitational forces, the action of the COM is moving relative to the skis all the time, so we need to be toppling in or out all the time. If there's a bit of grip in the snow you can also exert some sideways force at the point of contact to assist in getting the COM to move across. I still think I start the transition by either tightening the very end of the old turn, or allowing the natural force buildup to topple me outside. Sounds like it's back to the cross-over/under question again Wink : Is the ski crossing under our body due to the fact that it's carving an arc, or is the body's inertia causing it to crossover the path of the ski? But we are possibly in danger of over-thinking this (Shocked no! NEVER! Laughing) - once you get your first tentative one-foot carves done, it soon becomes pretty evident what works and what doesn't (much more obviously so than with two footed skiing, as there's much less opportunity to compensate by muscle power) and practice allows these balance changes to become largely sub-conscious.
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Yeah, only having one foot on the snow is a game changer when it comes to transitions. Two feet makes it easy. We just change the pressure distribution, by either extending the old inside leg (ILE), or relaxing the old inside leg (OLR), or some combination of the two, and the body becomes out of balance and topples into the new turn.

On one foot our we can't manipulate the base of support like that, so we have to do something else to set the CM in motion across the skis. I find the best way to just increase the edge angle a tad by using a bit of knee angulation. The ski cuts under our body, and the body becomes out of balance and topples into the new turn. Pretty slick, pretty easy. It's really a must have skill for doing the one ski balance drills. Also when doing White Pass Lean transitions from turn to turn.

I actually present how to do this in my new Transitions DVD, along with ILR, OLR, White Pass, and various other transition techniques.
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Wow...even though I'm basically making this up, it's very reassuring to get confirmation from the master that I'm essentially on the right lines....phew Very Happy
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I don't normally look at these tech threads. It is too long since I had a lesson or really thought about what I do: only my body knows - I don't. However I'm on Arno's side. Instinctively I'd say you just have to angulate on steeper slopes or anywhere where you need to really edge to keep control. Banking is what I might do on big fast turns in slush.

Yes, I learned the legs tight together way too, back in the late 50s, early 60s - I've managed to unlearn it : perhaps too much, my legs are often further apart than they should be to look good, off piste. Seems to work OK, though.
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GrahamN, FastMan, actually I see you both as masters, each with with stronger skills in your own areas, kind of like Master Yoda and Master Wendu? Toofy Grin wink
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Oops, I only read page one of this thread, I was way off context. rolling eyes
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snowball, i got lost after page 1 myself Madeye-Smiley
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GrahamN, but Graham, in the summer you spend lots of time on plastic don't you? How does that explicitly affect your advice (given that grip on plastic is, at best, elastic?
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under a new name, actually this summer I spent about as much time training on snow as I did on plastic, and did 5 snow races. They are different, but the fundamentals remain the same. The primary differences I find are the way transverse grip develops (or doesn't), and the rate you accelerate. You get speeds and can get angles on snow that would kill you on plastic, but the plastic forces you to be much more sensitive to how the skis are responding, as you're always just on the verge of them breaking away. I think the optimal fore-aft balance position is slightly different - being a bit back on plastic allows the skis to run a bit freer, but with the slower acceleration you don't get so punished by the skis running too far ahead - but that's not really relevant to the angulation discussion. And relative to the one ski discussion, I can also do one ski stuff on snow that I'm afraid I have to bottle out of on plastic.
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GrahamN, At the one snow race that I did with you I could tell that most of the other racers were training on plastic. On snow you can use ILE to get the new outside ski to hook up in the first part of the turn, I see plastic racers waiting until they are in the fall line or even the final part of the turn to pressure the ski, by the time of our runs there were big holes below each gate caused by this.
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GrahamN, I wil confess to doing a lot of plastic skiing in my youth. I don't think it did me anything other than lots of good.
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rjs, good point. That's something I managed to develop a bit this autumn, unfortunately a couple of weeks after that race, and has been feeding back into my skiing on plastic as well. Still not fully got to grips with the skis I was using that day though Sad . Part of the difference though is also due to the very different courses that are set on snow to plastic - applying snow technique to plastic courses doesn't necessarily work all that well.

under a new name, yes, and experience of the different aspects each surface highlights, in combination, just improves our understanding of how everything works. I just wish my body were 30 years younger to take proper advantage of that Sad Sad .
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Just a quick line to say thanks to FastMan (and GrahamN) for a very clear explanation of the issues here.
The description of how ski design changes have changed the emphasis between knee ang., hip ang. and inclination/banking makes complete sense. The sort of thing that seems obvious once you've read it but definitely wasn't before!

A couple of years ago I posted a photo here which provoked a bit of discussion. FastMan turned up with a brief post saying basically "think about the difference between knee angulation and hip angulation - you are using quite a lot of knee angulation here, might hip angulation be better?". Just that question helped me make a real improvement to my skiing.

Cheers,

J
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