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Angulation = old school?

 Poster: A snowHead
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Oops, should of read the second half. GrahamN said what I was thinking, much more eloquently than I could of.
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OK, I've skimmed through the long posts here and read the short ones, and looked at all the photos. I would have a stab at inclination being what I was doing at HH and angulation being what rob@rar, tried to get me to do, i.e to lean away from the slope with the top half of the body thus putting more pressure on the downhill ski and lightening the uphill ski on the turn thus making the turn easier. Whether I succeeded, might be questionable, but I think that's how I'm interpretting this thread. Correct or not folks? B.t.w. I think I see that open hip in the photos and, OK I'll have a further stab at this, I think the open hip would produce the opposite of inner ski tip lead. How am I doing?
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Angulate = tip the legs.

Bank = tip the legs, torso and head.

You angulate in short turns.

Bank in longer turns.

Angulating takes more physical effort and skill than banking.
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I'm pretty sure you angulate in large radius turns too... purely banked turns limits the input you can have into your turn.
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GrahamN wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
I'd be cautious of any description of ski technique which used the terms old skool/nu skool. Smacks too much of what is fashionable rather than what is effective.

Quite - it may be fun for a bit of rabble rousing but it does little constructive other than provide some general context.

I think what happens with the angulation/inclination thing is really a load simpler than people try to make it. The complication comes in working out what you actually want to do. In essence it's all about balance.
- If we're trying to ski with our weight on the outside ski, then the force resulting from both gravity and centrifugal/petal (let's not go there either for now rolling eyes ) action on our COM has to pass through our carving edge. If it falls outside the ski edge then we will fall to the outside of the turn, if it fall inside the edge then we will fall to the inside of the turn. Simple Newton.
- the relative contributions of gravity and cetriwhatever vary depending on our turn style; the faster and tighter the turn, the more centriwhatever dominates.
- inclination of the lower legs also increases the ski edge angle, and tightens the turn so increasing centriwhatever forces, but the COM is further inside the turn, so we need more to avoid falling over - and there's a bit of a compromise going on.
(Edit: forgot the most important point in this whole ramble) - if we only incline, for a given radius of turn there is only one speed at which we are stacked over that outside ski; if we want to go faster or slower we have to do something different
- we can alter the position of our COM by changing the amount of angulation we use; the more angulation the further out the COM gets, the more inclination the closer into the centre of the turn the COM gets; hence we can fine tune the balance position using angulation
- the balance state is transient though - we want to change radius and body position throughout the turn, not least so we can link into the next one, so at different parts of the turn we may want to be falling in or out, hence different amounts of inclination and angulation as we go
- actually though, if we're balancing on one edge, we CAN'T move the COM just by angulating - as there's no way of exerting torque on a single edge; what we actually do (if say we want to start a transition) is increase the edge angle by angulating, so the turn tightens, and the current position of the COM allows us to fall slightly to the outside of the turn and the body starts moving over the skis for the next turn. This is just like when riding a bike, a left turn has to start with a brief right hand (counter-)turn, otherwise you just carry on in a straight line (even if you bike turns to the left Shocked ).
- the above is all modified a bit when the second ski is allowed to act - that does provide the second force point that allows a torque to be applied, and allows a second method of refining balance - but with the risk of trying to do too much with it and end up skiing too much on the inside ski Embarassed . Stance width can then come into the equation here - the wider the stance the more torque gets applied for a given force on the ski, so you need less inside ski force to achieve the same correction, but at the expense of more different paths and control decisions.
(and this leads onto another geeky topic I've been meaning to post about for months Wink.

I'm really not sure about that Gurshman article, there are so many howlers in the introductory and physics part of it that he uses for justification I find it difficult to take the rest at face value. (For starters: 1) He points to that first photo, then talks about keeping hips and shoulders level - they're nothing close to level; 2) what the hell is "speed of the turn radius"; 3) turns do not produce energy, if anything they consume it). If ski teachers/coaches really want to use physics to support their arguments they ought to make sure they make sense rolling eyes , run it by someone who does know what they're talking about if necessary.

Looks like we could have a fun drink this evening!

(Edited for typos, and insertion of the most important point in the discussion Embarassed )


This should be read a few times by those who really want to understand the whys of angulation/inclination. Well done, Graham! You're going to enjoy my Building Blocks Angulation and Transitions DVDs, they reinforce and explain in living color every thing you've said here.

If angulation is old school, so is skiing balanced primarily on your outside ski.
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Arno wrote:





Arno, the thing that jumps out at me in your photo is not the angulation,,, that's fine. It's how you're creating the counter that's supporting that angulation. You're dropping your outside hip back, which is moving that hip aft in relation to your outside foot, thereby moving your fore/aft balance state aft too.

Try, instead, creating your counter by driving your inside hip forward. Begin that inside hip drive immediately at the beginning of your transition and you'll experience a powerful fore balanced, shovel loaded turn initiation.
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Arno,

Just what Rob and Fastman said. I'd like to see your hips slightly squarer to the turn. You can still angulate with less counter rotation. But of course as you say a photo / freeze frame on a video is easy to pull apart to the nth degree!!

Banking and inclination are not the same thing. There is a better description of the difference between the two than I could ever give, here:

http://www.podiumski.com/Pod%20tips.htm
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I could be that Arno just has a big fat arse Toofy Grin

To give him some credit, it may be that the angle of camera shot doesn't help. It looks like he is skiing in a flat field!
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Frosty the Snowman, absolutely, that's why you can't really comment on someone's skiing from one photo. Also when videoing it's easy to pull apart one freeze frame when the run as a whole was pretty good!
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so here are some lines on the pic which show where I think the skis are pointing, and where my hips and shoulders look like they are pointing. I don't want them all parallel, right? there ought to be some counter in there shouldn't there?



actually Frosty the Snowman probably has a point - it is my oversized bumcheeks dragging in the wind Sad
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Frosty the Snowman wrote:
It could be that Arno just has a big fat arse Toofy Grin

To give him some credit, it may be that the angle of camera shot doesn't help. It looks like he is skiing in a flat field!


correct on boths counts... Laughing and no, it wasn't flat... he walked/traversed miles to get that pitch..
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Megamum wrote:
OK I'll have a further stab at this, I think the open hip would produce the opposite of inner ski tip lead. How am I doing?

No, it tends to be the opposite case. An open hip will have the outside ski further back than a closed hip.
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rob@rar wrote:
Megamum wrote:
OK I'll have a further stab at this, I think the open hip would produce the opposite of inner ski tip lead. How am I doing?

No, it tends to be the opposite case. An open hip will have the outside ski further back than a closed hip.
I have been waiting with bated breath to see you post that. I was really worried that I had completely misunderstood what you had said to me. Phew. Toofy Grin
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BANKING - Poor use of Inclination to make turns, resulting in the skis not holding an edge during the turn and the skier being unbalanced and typically having too much pressure on the inside ski.

INCLINATION - The leaning movement of tipping the body into a turn to create Edge Angle, whilst keeping the joints in a straight line.
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So what is the difference between BANKING and INCLINATION Puzzled
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your outside ski skids and your inside ski takes on a life of its own
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Frosty the Snowman, "poor use". Keep up!
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Frosty the Snowman wrote:
So what is the difference between BANKING and INCLINATION Puzzled

I think from what has been said here that banking is doing it badly, inclination is doing it well. As with all skiing you need to balance the forces that you create/build up by having the appropriate body movements so that you ski efficiently. If you incline too much or too little, or too early or too late in the turn it's not going to help you to balance all the forces that you experience in the turn, leading to some unintended consequences (eg falling inside the turn, not controlling the turn shape very well, etc). That seems to be called banking, although I wonder if this is more of a semantic thing...?
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Appears to me that inclination involves actively flexing the legs whereas banking is pretty much a 'parked' / static position.
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Quote:

if this is more of a semantic thing


yes but unless you say "banking" how else do you describe to an athlete in one word that they are falling into a turn too quickly, getting too much pressure on their inside leg which then diverges back up the hill further worsening the situation on their outside ski which is now skidding...... Laughing

ps i bank a lot
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skimottaret, indeed, but sometimes shorthand needs explaining before we use it.
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skimottaret,

Quote:

ps i bank a lot


hehe yep, you're a complete Banker
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skimottaret, yes, I did hear someone at Hemel say that you were a right banker wink wink

How does one inclinate badly (bank) then?
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back to the opening question, with torsionally stiffer skis and bigger sidecuts you can incline into turns further BEFORE you naturally HAVE to start to angulate. The Ted Ligerty shot highlights that perfectly. New skool equipment allows skiers to incline further into their turns than old skool gear which is preferable to early angulation as it is a much stronger body position allowing for better carved turns...
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Frosty the Snowman wrote:
How does one inclinate badly (bank) then?

Normally by inclining too much or too quickly for the shape turn that you want to make and the speed you're travelling at, or getting too much on your inside leg.
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rob@rar wrote:
skimottaret, indeed, but sometimes shorthand needs explaining before we use it.


refer to glossary at the top of the BZK section NehNeh
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skimottaret wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
skimottaret, indeed, but sometimes shorthand needs explaining before we use it.


refer to glossary at the top of the BZK section NehNeh


It should be required reading for all Inside Out clients Smile
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rob@rar,
Quote:

It should be required reading for all Inside Out clients
Erm, I think the editor needs another crack at it first. Including, fairly obviously, the definition of banking. wink
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rob@rar wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
skimottaret, indeed, but sometimes shorthand needs explaining before we use it.


refer to glossary at the top of the BZK section NehNeh


It should be required reading for all Inside Out clients Smile


Oh dear - looks like that's our homework sorted then Sad Toofy Grin
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cathy wrote:
Oh dear - looks like that's our homework sorted then Sad Toofy Grin

Quite right too. Scott and I were thinking about introducing written exams as well - if we have to do them we can't see why our students shouldn't also be tested in that way.





Wink
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skimottaret, I like the illustration.

I was on a training course about a year ago, and the trainer ran a great session on angulation / inclination / banking. The group was a mix of advanced recreational skiers / BASI L1s and L2s. Interestingly whilst most in the group managed to give a good demo of angulation, very few managed to demonstrate the difference between inclination and banking, ending up with something that was a mix between the two! Do you think inclination is a harder skill to develop? Or could it be that they'd all been skiing a while, having learnt at a time when angulation = good, banking = bad, and inclination was never really mentioned?

(Ooh, look at me getting involved in a technical discussion! Not going to argue though wink )
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rob@rar, Laughing I wouldn't put it past you! Toofy Grin
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beanie1, inclination versus angulation was a big deal on my tech and teach course and if you watch good GS racers these days training you will see a lot of side to side (inclination) movement in their training routines with a strong stacked body position. not sure it is harder skill to learn per se but but is more obvious when doing poorly. if you dont incline correctly it is very noticable with lots of skidding and divergence of the inner ski. Angulation can "look" okay and a lot of people (me included) think they are angulating well but are mainly bending the spine and have an open hip which puts the body in a very weak position.

so in some ways yes angulation is old skool in that current equipment allows a skillful skier to stay in a stronger stacked position (inclined) longer before having to reort to angulation.
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It is true that todays smaller radius skis allow for less use of angulation. As Graham explained above, angulation is nothing more than a way to manage our state of lateral balance. In simple terms, we use it to move our balance point towards our outside ski/foot. Shape skis produce higher centrifugal forces for the same edge angle, which in-and-of itself moves our balance point more towards our outside ski, so less angulation introduced by us is necessary.

This is not to say angulation is not needed. Actually it still very much is, especially as the edge angle grows. What has changed the most with the introduction of the shape ski, and what carries the most importance for skiers, is that the need for KNEE ANGULATION has been very much reduced. Knee angulation allows for a much larger range of lateral balance management than hip angulation does. On our old shape skis only the fastest turns and lowest edge angles could get away with pure hip angulation. Trying to employ pure hip angulation in most turns simply resulted in our weight falling on our inside ski. We had to knee angulate to stay outside ski balanced. It's why A-framing was not the taboo stance it is today; because it was something that had to be done to ski effectively. Check out old pictures of Stenmark and you'll see knee angulated A-framed stances up the kazoo.

The problem with knee angulation is that it's a weak stance that subjects skiers to a higher risk of incurring knee injury. With shape skis less angulation is needed, so we can more often employ pure hip angulation and enjoy the safer and stronger stance it provides.

As far as the difference between banking and inclination, banking is the old school name for inclination, and Skimotttaret's definitions kind of reflect a throw back to why banking was frowned upon in the old days. Because angulation was so needed back then, banking a turn would almost always put us on our inside ski and into balance trouble. Still, in those days, banking was a functional stance in some high speed turns, such as in a downhill race, and did not result in a loss of balance to the inside ski. So really, inside ski balance was not a part of the tradiional definition of banking, it was just a typical result of doing it in normal speed skiing.

As to how much counter to use? Counter is a tool for enhancing the amount of angulation you can do. Counter allows you to flex forward at the waist to angulate, rather than flex sideways, which provides a much larger range of motion, and therefore more ability to move the location of your Center of Mass towards your outside foot/ski, and with it your state of balance. The higer you tip on edge the more you need that extra ability to angulate, so the need for counter grows with the edge angle. That said, a minimal amount of counter is beneficial in every turn, regardless of the edge angle used, because it helps the outside foot pronate and drive the turning edge of that ski into the snow.
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FastMan, so with the new DVD it will all fall (or angulate, incline or bank) into place?
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As it's been explained to me recently...

Inclination is bio-mechanically more advantageous than angulation because the skier's hips are square to the skis (as rob@rar says, all the joints are stacked and working in the direction / way that they're designed to do.

Over the last 3-4 years the better ski racers (have apparently) increasingly favoured inclination over angulation.

But...

...for any given speed of turn and turn radius there is a critical angle (of the centre of mass, relative to the base of support) at which the forces generated from the turn aren't enough to hold the skier up. A skier can't incline past this point to increase edge angle because they fall over.

After this critical edge angle, if you want / need to influence the turn shape by getting more edge angle then you have to angulate. Angulation has the effect of moving your CoM up and reducing the angle of the CoM relative to the base of support.

[This is more or less what GrahamN is saying - only hopefully shorter!]
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FlyingStantoni, a model of clarity and concision. (But what do I know? rolling eyes)
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Right, I am a simple man who has had a glass or two....

do I read fastmans comments correctly so that if arno drove his left hip forward, his tips would be then be parallel, so a simple solution is to keep your tips parallel?????

Quote:
Arno, the thing that jumps out at me in your photo is not the angulation,,, that's fine. It's how you're creating the counter that's supporting that angulation. You're dropping your outside hip back, which is moving that hip aft in relation to your outside foot, thereby moving your fore/aft balance state aft too.

Try, instead, creating your counter by driving your inside hip forward. Begin that inside hip drive immediately at the beginning of your transition and you'll experience a powerful fore balanced, shovel loaded turn initiation.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 24-10-09 23:20; edited 1 time in total
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Edit Second thoughts: contribution to technical argument too dangerous. Skullie


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sat 24-10-09 23:33; edited 1 time in total
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