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Is This Ski Racism?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
http://www.goodskiguide.com/gsg/index.php/the-news/317-beasts

Hello

My first time. I am from Russia. My friend sent me the link above and asked me what I thought. I was doing a google search on the magazine name and found you. I like your forum you seem like people i would like to ski with.

I think it stinks, especially when I see that the magazine has even created a competition http://www.goodskiguide.com/gsg/index.php/competitions/beastscomp - i think they want to spread even more xenophobia.

what do you think?

I wrote to the magazine and the Mr Hill replied that it was OK because his accountant was a jew and his cleaner was an Indian. How crazy is that?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
We had plenty of Russians in 2Alpes last season, all seemed like pretty reasonable people to me. Courchevel's Russians, (and Val d'Isere's Brits) on the other hand, are pretty much as described. Personally, I think it's money which makes the difference - arrogant rich people are a pain in the bum regardless of nationality.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
anton.a, Welcome to snowheads, I wouldn't take personal offence if you're not one of the individuals being described. Stereotyping is fairly easy journalism and I wouldn't imagine that it is entirely without foundation. There are obviously people of every nationality who are used to money excusing poor or downright antisocial behaviour. We'll have met lots of boorish hooray type British skiers or lots of heavy drinking pub crawling British students on ski trips at one time or another but it doesn't mean all Brits are a nightmare.

Humility and discrete use of wealth are the culturally accepted ways of not offending in the UK, I suspect other countries may have different cultural norms that's all.
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Jealousy. Suddenly woken up to that fact that one half of the continent now has people as wealthy as the other half, and that they don't all drive Trabbies and Ladas, but BMWs and Audis like the rest of us.
Not seen any real problem with anyone from any of those nations, and certainly nothing worse than what the Brits get up to. The same is true of those I work with (people from pretty much every EU country and beyond!)
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What an absolute lady's front bottom that author is, going on about others rubbish skills, then saying he was checking over his shoulder before each turn doing GS turns, its no wonder he almost crashed into someone ahead of him if he was looking at where he came from rather than where he was going.

I agree with anton.a, it is appalling xenophobia
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personally I think the article comes across as a bit of a joke, I don't mean in a funny way, so I wouldn't let it upset you.
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anton.a, welcome to snowHeads.

I agree with you. You could substitute "Russian" with "British" and the article would apply equally to some British skiers.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
rambotion, to be fair to the author, if I'm carving big turns on a wide piste, I also look over my shoulder before very turn - but just a glance, not a whole head twist!
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Since the author is soliciting responses, why don't you all e-mail him and tell him he's a twerp? Apparently you could even win a prize for doing so, which would be gratifying.
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I haven't been compelled to post anything for ages (got nothing intelligent to say and have genuinely been busy) but still drop in to have a read. This one is interesting and I'm only posting because nobody has said the obvious yet. What happens if you substitute Czech, Pole and Russian with Pakistani, Indian or black? The idiot author would be in the stew that's what. Racism is racism full stop and I for one am embarrased that this rubbish has been spouted by a British magazine.
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I was in Kitzbuhel a couple of years ago and the hotel had a quota system in place for Russians. Aside from Courchevel I haven't notice the East Europeans being any worse behaved than anyone else.
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anton.a, I agree.

Yes there may be some Eastern Europeans who behave that way - but my Polish friends would be mortified to see themselves stereotyped in this way. This is clumsy and lazy journalism. But I cannot see who wrote it - so do not know who to complain too.

Bode Swiller, good to see you back
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anton.a, You won't find this sort of xenophobia from the majority of people on this site. I've skied for many years in Europe and have only seen such behaviour from a small minority of people from all nationalities. I think that Lizzard was spot on with -
Quote:
arrogant rich people are a pain in the bum regardless of nationality.


Quote:
I like your forum you seem like people i would like to ski with.


Welome to the forum and if you stay around you should be able to achieve this.
Cool snowHead
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Bode Swiller, Didn't notice you had been away Toofy Grin wink



What a nasty little article

about the Russians not Bode Swiller Toofy Grin
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
anton.a, welcome to snowHead

rac·ism (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Based upon the various definitions of racism I doubt that the article is 'racism' as such. It is certainly making a generalisation about the skiing habits of certain nationalities and is stereotyping specific nationalities for their skiing/social attributes.

Actually a lot of nationalities are criticised in the article and I would suggest it is more to do with ski snobbery/etiquette than racism.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Bode Swiller wrote:
Racism is racism full stop .


Except when it is xenophobia. In this case one european bitching about another european is not racism, unless said european is from some none-european racial subgroup such as African or Indian. Don't go looking for racism where it doesn't exist.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Boredsurfing wrote:
Bode Swiller, Didn't notice you had been away Toofy Grin wink
and you the man that notices EVERYTHING. You know how to hurt. And I'm not back, I'm still undergoing therapy.

Anyhow, Ray Scoops, it's racism to some, xenophobia to others and there are many definitions of both that fit the bill. Whatever, I stand by what I said earlier that, if the target been, for example, Pakistanis, then we'd absolutely be calling it racist.

I guess the point is that it is simple gross exaggeration and staggeringly poor journalism.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
davidof, Over 3/4 of Russia is in Asia.
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anton.a, well we had a few russian parties last year and they were unfailingly charming.
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ITS Russchzechpolism FGS!!!!.....


okbye
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I started a thread before on the subject of increasing numbers of Russians in the Alps, I hope it didn't come across as xenophobic but it's probably going to take some time for everyone to adjust to the new reality:

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=47808

No one nationality has the monopoly on rudeness, there's good and bad everywhere and money is certainly no excuse for treating your hosts and fellow visitors with disrespect.

I despair at Brits who behave badly abroad and ruin the reputation of the rest of us. If a local behaves badly, he will be remembered as a rude person; if a Brit behaves badly, he will be remembered as a rude Brit. The same is probably happening with visitors of other nationalities from places further East.

One poster from the previous thread explained it this way, perhaps we just need to learn to understand each other:

mil46 wrote:

I was born in the former Soviet Union and left in the seventies.Difficult to generalise as "russians" are very diverse group of different ethnic origin,all speaking russian.Still,as a rule,they are very shy,reserved and selfconcious,especially concerned with "proper" behavior.They are aware of a condescending attitude of westerners toward them and respond with the same attitude.But when it is friendship it will be usually very warm,almost bounderless relationships.
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Bode Swiller wrote:
davidof, Over 3/4 of Russia is in Asia.


Yes they do have some Asian colonies but 80% of the population is of Russian origin and living in the European bit and I imagine that the Russians that the article is complaining about are European Russians. Hence it is xenophobia.

mil46 wrote:

They are aware of a condescending attitude of westerners toward them


Well I can't comment for current British attitudes but condescending is not the kind of attitude I associate with Russians. "Respected", "Admired" or even "Feared" maybe. Everyone knows it was the Russians that made a major contribution to defeating the Nazis (and probably stopped the Americans using the A-bomb on Germany), the Russians got satellite and a man into space before the West, Russians even get a more favourable treatment in Hollywood compared to the Brits.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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It is wrong of anyone to stereotype a nation based on the behaviour of some. I am not denying that this kind of thing goes goes on, but I have seen it from British people, Austrians, Italians, French, and more commonly in Mayrhofen, Germans. It does not however mean that everyone from those nations behaves like a lager lout. You sadly do find that some people with seemingly limitless finance like to flaunt it and as a reuslt do not care about the effect that has on others. Unfortauntely, it is true that the majority of people I have seen behaving like this in recent years do come from the eastern parts of Europe. I could not tell you who was Russian, Polish, Czech or whatever just by their accents, but I would know they were "eastern europeans" and from my own personal experience of them (which has been on summer holidays in Egypt and Greece and not on ski slopes) I can agree that the people who were behaving in an unacceptable and disruptive manor were most definitely eastern europeans. It usually involved heavy drinking all day, treating staff with complete disrespect, and doing things like urinating in public places and smoking in non smoking establishments; none of which I am particularly keen on personally. It is as if they felt they were more important than anyone else and had no respect whatsoever for other people.
However, I do not think this is BECAUSE they are eastern european, or that all eastern europeans behave similarly. I dont think this article is suggesting that either, but journalism is all about provoking a reaction and this article seems to have done that.
You dont have to either agree or disagree with it; there is no right or wrong about the article; people may not have had experience with people behaving as described in this article, and you may well have come across lovely people from eastern europe. I myself spent 3 hours having some fantastic conversation with a Slovenian couple whilst away this summer, but it does not mean that a Slovenian is incapable of brash or offensive behaviour.
I think we have to accept that in recent years, it has been noticable that more Russians or eastern europeans, whatever you want to refer to them as, have new found wealth and are visiting places that perhaps you would not have noticed them at before, and as a result you are likely to find that some of them may well behave in ways you or I might find offensive. Best thing to do is keep out of their way to be honest, or choose somewhere to ski where you are not likely to find gangs of all male parties on heavy drinking sessions, which could well cut out a large number of well liked and well used resorts!!!!!!
All I can say from my personal experience of Russians or eastern europeans on ski slopes is that they seem to have all the gear, and as a result you can usually spot them a mile off with all that horrible Spyder gear.......!!!! I have been hit on a piste by a Danish guy who was out of his depth, out of control and skiing very very fast and dangerously, who snapped my ski pole clean in half and 6 inches to the right it would have been my leg ro worse. But it does not mean I now think that all Danes are drunken morons. We need to get things into perspective and remember that people no matter where they come from need to be judged on individual merit.
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anton.a, be it racism or xenophobia, it is stereotyping of the worst sort. People of any nationality can and do behave rudely and that is to be deplored. I had an interesting experience in a hotel in Verbier two years ago: I was sitting at dinner between two tables of Russians and the people at one of the tables were behaving very coarsely. They were exceptionally rude to the waiting staff and, unfortunately, I could understand every coarse word that they uttered (because, although born in England, I am of 100% Russian extraction.) The people at the other table were not like that at all and, on finishing their meal, they came over to my table before leaving the restaurant and quietly apologised to me and my companions about the behaviour of their compatriots, of whom they felt thoroughly ashamed. Some people are civilised and some are not, it's as simple as that. That article is disgusting.
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Tony_H,
Quote:

It is wrong of anyone to stereotype a nation based on the behaviour of some.



err, Tony_H, I recall readin many stereotypical comment from you regarding the French on J2Ski.
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Hurtle wrote:
That article is disgusting.
Just analysing why I agree with you on that. I think firstly it is because it is totally bereft of humour - if it were a well-written humorous charicature of folks from the east, then very few people would be talking about it. Trouble is there is an underlying feeling of hatred, jealousy at their apparent wealth, while at the same time saying "look at me, I'm an amazing fast skier, I teach skiing, I speak German, I know how to behave". It's also laughably made up. None of these things ever happen to me but this writer seems to encounter loads of dangerous/odd/weird incidents. The article isn't attributed to anyone but the writer refers to another article he has written. That article was written by someone called Bill "never 'eard of 'im" Dale. If Mr Dale actually exists would he mind entering the witness box please. And what the hell's happened to the OP?

I think it is the act of turning it into a competition is what makes it worse.

Anyway, I've really got to stop posting as I promised my trick cyclist that I'd stopped doing this kinda thing. Out.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle, I felt I had to apologise for some fellow Brits to a hire shop owner in Courchevel 1850 a few years ago. Evil or Very Mad
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
That nasty, racist rant made me shudder. It's an obnoxious waste of internet space and read like a steaming, alcoholic vomit dribbling out of the spoilt little brat author's mouth while talking to his sympathetic mummy from the hotel lobby.
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You know it makes sense.
moffatross, Toofy Grin
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm not gonna be this nice, as previous posters were, and I will say this article has some valid point. But reason why it is like it is, are not really this simple. As someone mentioned earlier already, it's not about nationality but about money. And unfortunately for you guys, huge majority of Russians who we see in ski resorts down here in Alps, are those with lot of money. Once people, no matter of nationality, have a lot more money then rest, they, at least most of time, behave different. Since most Russians, are not traveling to ski in Alps, we are stuck with those few arrogant ones. But these are majority of Russians we see, so all of a sudden all Russians are like this, even if this is far from truth. Personally I have lot of Russian, Czech and Polish friends from my racing days, so I actually know how majority of them are... probably spending quite some time around those places helped too Smile
But as I wrote, most of people we see on ski courses down here are different, and that's why most of people here have such impression.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Bode swiller, racism is a specific form of prejudice and at times people use the word because it is a bigger card to play than than, well, prejudice. Many nations get a hammering in the article and there is no 'race' theme contained therein.
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Quote:

journalism is all about provoking a reaction

Nothing to do with truth or facts or informing people or any of that sort of old fashioned stuff then. rolling eyes
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This article is not racist, it is a comment about a small minority of Russians, not the entire race.

I worked in Russia for 5 years and met the most kind and hospitable people, the kind that would give up their last ruble for you. I was invited to many dinners with them and always faced a table full of food and a HUGE ammount of vodka, despite the average salary being $US150 a month.

Unfortunately the Russians we see on the ski slopes are not this type of person. The average Russian can't afford to go skiing in Europe, the ones that can, have generally earnt their money through illegal means, the nouveau riche. These people think they can use their money to do what they like, fortunately we can spot them a mile away, with their bad fashion sense and body guards.
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picnic64, very fair point. Welcome to snowHeads. Smile
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It is also similar the old attitude the Brits tended to bring to resorts. When a social strata as a group becomes able to enter new areas such as 'skiing' they often go a bit mad, don't know the contemporary culture and social norms and drink way too much. As the love of the sport develops in some and the 'hoorays' go on to the next new thing it will be the turn of yet another country or culture to be castigated as 'undesirables'.
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Quote:

I recall readin many stereotypical comment from you regarding the French on J2Ski.

When it comes to British rudeness about the French (and possibly the reverse....) xenophobia knows no bounds. wink
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Ok the article was out of order, but i have yet to meet an unobnoxious russian in a ski resort. Ex-ussr imo much nicer than ruskis
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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I had the pleasure of getting drunk with some russkis in Platzl in St Anton about 4 or 5 yrs ago - we got to chucking out time! in St Anton!!!! Very nice bunch who kept trying to insist we come skiing with them in Siberia if they could find a helicopter pilot still alive - every time they mentioned 1 they thought better of it "Oh no not him, he's dead - helicopter crash!" (I think the choppers were v old ex-military and just had a habit of falling out of the sky.)
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And man up, stop being so wet, the irish take worse than that you great girls
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anton.a, Welcome by the way. Hopefully you may get a chance to ski with some of us in the future, snowHeads often end up skiing all over the world.
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