 Poster: A snowHead
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Earlier tonight I was searching the crystal site in the hope of a good deal (two years ago with Crystal I got a week's h/b in Courmayeur with flights and transfers for £175 - I can but hope of getting something like that again!) and saw a reasonable offer in La Plagne. S/C, but hey ho, let's try. No "under occupancy supplement" mentioned, nothing when i start to book and they ask for DOB of passengers, looking good... till we get to the "additions" screen, and yep, there we go, price has now increased by 60%. Close window.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Bones wrote: |
Helen Beaumont, nbt, It really is annoying, having to fork out a hefty lump for an unused bed  The most annoying this is though the TO is pocketing the dosh, pure and simple. If you book a hotel room in the US or Canada, theres a standard rate for the room. If two people book it they dont pay any suppliment.
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Yes, but if you do that you aren't buying a package including flights.
The TO will total up the cost to them of the room plus 4 flights, factor in a profit margin, then charge that amount for four people.
If only two travel, then the overall % profit is reduced, because the room becomes a higher portion of the total cost.
I don't like it, but I can understand the reason for it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Bones wrote: |
| It really is annoying, having to fork out a hefty lump for an unused bed The most annoying this is though the TO is pocketing the dosh, pure and simple |
No we don’t. I think you are misunderstanding the way hotels charge. If a room has a number of beds and each bed is used then a certain amount (per person) is charged. If some of the beds are not used then a proportion of the un-used bed costs are charged. This means that 3 people in a four bed room will cost more to the TO than the same number in a triple room.
Each TO will negotiate this proportional excess with each hotel. I am not going to give exact details of the contracts we have as they are commercially sensitive. But suffice to say that it cost more to have empty beds in a room.
On another point there seems to be a reluctance to have an all inclusive price due to the fact that a tiny proportion t travelers will not be skiing. OK. Fine by me. You can e mail to the OFT and say this, if this is your point of view. I have checked our database and next year we have less than 1% of people who do not want a lift pass – I would think the rest would get a little upset if we introduced a RyanAiresk pricing policy and used the tiny% as a method of justifying a drip price.
I think the OFT were seeking lots of different opinions regarding drip pricing and inclusive costs, we have ours and you may disagree with this, why not let them know. The UK government doesn’t ask our opinion very often s when it does why not contact them.
Mind you, unless you can afford a full time lobbying companies to work n your behalf I would imagine there is not much chance of anyone listening, but worth a try
Remember that I am not talking about winter holidays. I have referring speciicly to brochures / websites that sell skiing holidays. I understand that there will always be options that people will want (or not), but I just feel that if you advertise something then the headline price should enable you to atually do that. In our resort you can upgrade your skis, you can extend your lift pas to include a zillion more areas, etc. BUT, you can take part in a ski holiday for the headline price. And that what we asked the OFT to look into.
As I said if you disagree with this, then e mail them and give your reasons –
it’s free world (taxes and charges not included in the cost of the world, only items attached to the world are included in this offer therefore optional extras such as air to breath, water, etc may be chargeable )
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I agree under-occupancy supplements are a pain. None of the TO websites actually show the true price of even a single room, let alone a twin room for sole use, until you get further into the booking process. Single rooms are still a precious commodity and early booking seems to be the only way to bag one. Since 1 in 5 adults are single, I reckon there is potentially a big market there to tap into. We don't necessarily want 'singles holidays' (godawful concept) we just want the comfort and privacy of our own room and own bathroom facilities, such as we enjoy at home without having to pay the equivalent price of a couple.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And further to Wayne's post above, if you're talking about guaranteed accommodation (ie catred chalets, clubhotels), the TO pays rent calculated per bed regardless of occupancy. So if you take up two beds, you cost twice as much - their only real saving is on food, which costs peanuts anyway.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Some companies offer the possibility of sharing with a stranger to avoid paying the supplement. The one I work for doesn't then charge you (a supplement) if they can't fill the room. This seems to be quite popular with both sexes. (Obviously they don't mix them!)
edited for clarity
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| Kaiser wrote: |
| Some companies offer the possibility of sharing with a stranger to avoid paying the supplement. |
How does it work in practice. Is it popular. Are there many people looking to go on holiday like this.
It seems to be an interesting idea
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Lots olf Swiss hotels have a good number of single rooms and charge the same rate per person they charge for two people in a double room. That is one of the reasons I do DIY ski hols.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
ski (and other) TO's that don't include the "full" cost of the trip within the advertised price
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not happy with this from a selfish point of view. There are numerous private catered chalets who offer the accommodation & food part of the package, with optional ski hire/lift passes etc, in some cases transfers or part-transfers, but who do not normally include flights. I don't see how you can try to establish legislation that everyone in this business should show the total cost - simply not workable and the small private chalets could never compete with the buying power of the big TOs for flights (but we certainly can on other parts of the service...)
There is no doubt, plenty of clients enjoy the private chalet experience and are more than happy to make their own arrangements to drive or fly there and rent or bring ski gear.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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nbt, I agree with you . . .
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In all seriousness, the ONLY thing that really annoys me is the pricing based on "full occupancy" - 4 people in a studio or a room with 2 double beds. Come on, how oftewn does that happen? If you look at the price for just two people, it''s half as much again. I just don't bother looking at studios anymore...
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I would very much like to head west this winter, just to see what it's like - but the major TO's main offerings are rooms for at least 4 people - by the time you add in the underoccupancy supplements, the holiday gets to be a stupid price! Worst I've seen is £47 per person per night for 2 to share a 4-person room; £20 pppn seems typical. There's very little where the price is based on 2 people sharing, and what there is tends to be very expensive anyway
Although Wayne, may disagree, my experience of places in the US is that all they offer is the room - no meals, etc - and all they charge for is the room. It's up to you whether you have 1 or 4 people sleeping in it - the place gets the same amount of cash off you any which way. This seems fair enough to me, and I do wonder how the TO's justify their supplements.
Ah well, looks like it's back to Austria again this year. What a hardship 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Is west = USA
No I don't disagree with you. I have never been to the USA so can't comment either way, but I assume the have different practices to those normally found in the Euro zone. Although will say I'm very jealous of you as I would really like to go one day. Don’t forget to post a report of what it like when you get home
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geoff10, not necessarily. We ski in the states a fair amount. This winter we will be going on a trip staying in two places - one of which is B&B, an the other is conventional Half Board including cake at teatime 
Wayne, I think TOs should be able to price however they want, but they should also show an indicative "punter price" which includes all the things you mention in the OP. A bit like an APR for loans.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bones, washington School Inn - park city. And the Alta Lodge at Alta is the HB place.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| I agree under-occupancy supplements are a pain. None of the TO websites actually show the true price of even a single room, let alone a twin room for sole use, until you get further into the booking process. Single rooms are still a precious commodity and early booking seems to be the only way to bag one. |
While there are relatively few of them around, I have never yet failed to get one, and I have only ever once booked more than 3 months before travel, and usually have booked within less than 8 weeks. But I do usually go during the low season period.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Wayne wrote: |
| Kaiser wrote: |
| Some companies offer the possibility of sharing with a stranger to avoid paying the supplement. |
How does it work in practice. Is it popular. Are there many people looking to go on holiday like this.
It seems to be an interesting idea |
Personally it wouldn't appeal to me. I guess I would share a room with a close friend or sister (definitely not my mum!), but I would always prefer to have my own room. I live alone and I'm used to my own space. Plus I'd pity anyone that had to share with my horrible habits. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
No, I would rather see a clear price menu and be able to select/deselect what I want.
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Strongly agree with that - but as some of the posts above indicate, the current system (especially that under occupancy nonsense) is a mish-mash and it takes hours and hours of research and comparisons to try to work out what is the best bet. (Although some people claim that doing a DIY trip is much more time-consuming it's not necessarily the case - I've never spent as long as in the days when I had 20 different brochures to try to puzzle out).
On most of the package ski trips I went on there was at least one non-skier in the group and often one very reluctant skier, really ready to give it up at the first setback and spend the rest of the week in a deck-chair. The idea of a headline price with deductions doesn't appeal to me at all and the "all in" concept isn't applicable to all ski holidays, by a long way. As for the idea that any holiday "price" which doesn't include meals is in some sense misleading/unfair, frankly I think that's crazy. I've never yet had a holiday where the price included all meals.
The brochures have plenty of information about the price of passes, lessons, ski hire etc - anyone who is surprised that the holiday costs them twice as much as the basic price simply isn't paying attention.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If this went through would resorts sell a specially restricted pass for TOs to bundle?
Or perhaps the TOs would use it as an opportunity to get ski passes bought with the holiday? (after all the passes are a significant source of income).
Wayne, are you sure what you're asking for would actually benefit you?
IMHO your all-in pricing makes you different, and comes across as more honest.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| .Ro wrote: |
| Or perhaps the TOs would use it as an opportunity to get ski passes bought with the holiday? (after all the passes are a significant source of income). |
Again I think a small misconception (widely held). Lift pass companies all over Europe give "very" little in the way of bulk purchase discount (they don't need to - they are the only lifties, you must have passes, why give discounts). The amounts involved (even if you do get them) make lift pass supply one of the less worth-while sections of the supply. The reason is the small returns and the amount of hassle you have getting them for clients.
"All" lift companies publish their price on line so you can (and so can anyone else) simply work out what we make on the supply of passes - to save you the time, it's between 2% and 3.75%. Not sure how it works in other areas but we "can" get an extra 4% (which would make a worth-while) but to get this we would need a minimum spend of €4,000,000 (four mil) on passes, and we ain't that big. Maybe some companies do get better rates, but that would only be the really big TO's and wouldn't be the general rule
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| Kaiser wrote: |
| Some companies offer the possibility of sharing with a stranger to avoid paying the supplement. |
How does it work in practice. Is it popular. Are there many people looking to go on holiday like this.
It seems to be an interesting idea |
Low season you are more likely to have a room to yourself, high season less so, but I reckon in a chalet of forty-five we usually have one room taken this way, sometimes two and rarely none. People probably share two thirds of the time with someone they didn't know before and there are some parties who now come out as a result of these chance meeetings.
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| Wayne wrote: |
On another point there seems to be a reluctance to have an all inclusive price due to the fact that a tiny proportion t travelers will not be skiing. OK. Fine by me. You can e mail to the OFT and say this, if this is your point of view. I have checked our database and next year we have less than 1% of people who do not want a lift pass – I would think the rest would get a little upset if we introduced a RyanAiresk pricing policy and used the tiny% as a method of justifying a drip price.
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looking at this from a different angle, that 1% of people could be so low because all the other 'non' skiers go with the tour ops who allow them the freedom to choose whether to buy ski hire and lift pass ?
I do wonder if you could be shooting yourself in the foot a little here. You have a different approach to the 'major' tour ops, if everybody started doing the same then would you be able to keep upwith the big boys ? Thier buying power would far outstrip that of any small specialist company. I quite like it that companies like your own offer that alternative approach, I think it's a winning concept, there will always be some people/groups to whom the 'all inclusive' offer is attractive and you can exploit this market as a small indepenedant if it's not crowded with the likes of TUI etc.
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Helen Beaumont, when I worked for a v large TO in the customer services department we used to cut and paste a standard para crafted by the MD to explain (fob off?) the North American room pricing issue on a daily basis. Given the frequency you might have thought the pricing structure would be changed ... but no and that was around 8 years ago ...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ctskifam, these rooms are clearly not designed for four adults and aren't even that suitable for a family unless the children are very young. Even when we thought we had a suitable room in Banff, a kitchenette suit in Banff with two separate sleeping areas, it turned out not to be. The twin beds in the second room turned out to be a very small double which my teenage sons moaned about having to share for the whole two weeks. The alternative suggested was for us to go out and buy an airbed for one of them at our own expense, and the hotel would provide bedding,or we could pay 1500CA to move to another hotel.
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Helen Beaumont, stop, stop I'm having flashbacks!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ctskifam, OK, I;ll leave it there then.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ARRRGHHHH!!! THey've done it again
Browsing the neilson website - they have a pretty good search interface that lets you narrow down to specific criteria
I want - ski chalets and ski and snowboard holidays
Departing from manchester
any day in january '10
Italy looks nice, thanks
Hmmm, just over £200 in La thuile, that looks good.
Ahh, I note the "apartments" tag and double check. Yes, it's self catered. not at that price thanks. Remove the "ski and snowboard holidays" and just search on "ski chalets"
ok, price has now doubled, let's widen the search back to january
Oooh, france looks cheap
Serre CHevalier is a nice resort - £234? Bargain
Yes, it's a chalet
ok, let's get some figures
Ok, it's not a chalet, it's an apartment. an aprtment for up to 7 people
Initial cost - £234 per person, or £468 for the pair of us
Final quote?
Adult 2 x £234.00 = 648
Adult Supplement/Reduction 2 x £175.00 = 350
IN-FLIGHT MEAL 2 x £15.00 = 30
5KGS EXTRA LUGGAGE 2 x £15.00 = 30
TC FOUNDATION 1091673 1 x £2.00 = 2
ADULT AREA LIFT PASS 2 x £159.00 = 318
Discount null x £-14.00
Grand Total £1184, or just over two and a half times the original cost. Ok, there's a lift pass in there, but GRRRRRRRRR
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You know it makes sense.
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Wayne, If you were to book a holiday to Florida, would you expect theme park tickets to be included in the headline price 
It is possible to go to a ski resort and not ski, or maybe a beginner may only need the free lifts for the first couple of days. I think by now everyone has got the message and we all know that Waynes Tours is the full shabang, whether you want it or not.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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nbt, what's the issue there? £234 per person is never going to include a lift pass, nor is it likely to not have an under-occupancy supplement for two people using an apartment for seven people. In actual fact that's not a bad supplement. Seven people would pay £1638 whereas for two it's £818 which is half the full cost. If only single supplements for hotel rooms were charged at that rate!
Surely there's no need to pay for in-flight meals and extra luggage if you want to keep costs down, take butties and pack less.
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Poster: A snowHead
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234 without lift pass is fine, it's just the extras - an aprtment for 2 to 7 people? come on, get real. I was specifically searching for chalets on the assumption that it would exclude apartments with such under-occupancy supplements
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FAQ
No room suppliments either 
