I was wavering between putting this in Equipment Review and Bend we Knees, so here it is instead.
One reads often about certain equipment (skis and bindings in particular) being too heavy to tour more than an hour or two with them.
Yet fitness is rarely mentioned. I would have thought that someone in good shape could tour faster and further on a heavy ski with a Duke binding, than someone of average fitness. (And then the fitter skier may well be the one charging harder downhill and requiring a beefier ski/binding). That's certainly the case with one of the guides I've been with, who can break trail in deep heavy snow, carrying a heavy backpack, faster than we can follow in his track.
When I tour, I find that the main problem is if others are faster than me. But I don't feel the weight as the main problem there, it's more of a natural rhythm thing.
I'm not thinking of doing the Haute Route using my Kneissl Tankers with Barons, but when does the gain from lower weight become marginal compared to fitness level (and to the gain in downhill performance)?
Is it really after just one hour of touring?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
don't think there is a simple answer to that
i'm not the fittest (esp considering that i actually do quite a bit of touring ) but managed 800m+ height gain with alpine boots, dukes and legend pros last season and it didn't kill me. it is quite noticeable how much lighter my dynafit setup is though.
for me, it builds up if i'm doing a hut to hut tour - each morning you're a bit more tired than you would otherwise be and the whole thing is just that little bit less fun.
it's a balance and for me it is about getting a good return on the weight you carry. so i am happy if a pair of boots weighs 200g more if i feel that 200g has made it appreciably beefier. otoh the weight of brakes on Dynafit bindings seems a waste to me and as for Fritschis or Naxos...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
EDIT : simulatanous post with Arno
Every 1kg of weight on the feet is equivalent to an extra 5kg in the pack.
When your doing longer ski tours - such as the HR, 90% of your time is spent going up hill.
So why not use light weight gear ? And actually enjoy the experience.
Dukes are great for skiing easily accesible side country off the ski lifts.
But doing long tours on them is like cycling touring on a mountain bike
All ski touring kit is bascially some kind of compromise between the up and down.
Depsite what people like to think there is no perfect solution!
(telemark or dynafit come close though...)
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 8-10-09 11:02; edited 1 time in total
Buying lightweight gear is the easy solution. Fitness requires a lot more commitment and effort but is, obviously, more rewarding.
I think that, in the end, you just go with whatever you are comfortable with. At the first hut of our last tour there was a French party that included a tiny woman in a pair of Salomon rear-entry boots and a lad with a snowboard and snowshoes. Over the next morning they moved just as quick (or slow) as us with our 'proper' touring gear. For me, the point is that you are there enjoying the occasion / atmosphere / environment and what you are in or on is irrelevant. All gear is a compromise so you just learn to make the best of it. What is more important is that the whole party has similar ambitions.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I'd say the weight of the gear you can get away with depends on your fitness in relation to the rest of the group. There's no point having beefy skis if your legs are noodles by the time you get to the top although riding a pair of noodle skis on the way down with strong legs isn't much fun either. I've been on tours with really fit people who will tour for days using alpine boots & heavy skis mounted with Fritschis. I'll tour up to 4-5 hours covering ca 1400 hm+ with ca 4kg touring boots and 3kg touring skis (per pair) mounted with Fritschis. Been thinking of changing over to dynafit but as I'm one of the fitter ones in the group. Put me in a superfit group though and I'd be wishing I had dynafits. Going for the lightest setup which still allows you to have fun on the way down is probably the best solution although this is dependent on the skiers weight. e.g. Heavy skiers typically find touring boots too soft for the descent whereas lightweights don't need such a stiff boot are are happy to wear touring boots.
Having the lightest gear doesn't guarantee you won't be struggling at the back though, gear can only make up for a limited amount of fitness (or lack there of).
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 8-10-09 11:24; edited 1 time in total
Years ago I did a Joint Services Mountain Expedition Leadership course. Fitness was taken for granted - but the benefits of having as light a backpack as possible were also brought home. No matter how fit you are, keeping the kit light (but of adequate scale) is always a benefit. You can do more - and have more energy in reserve for that unforeseen situation, if your kit is as light as sensibly possible.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Good point about having energy in reserve for unforseen circumstances.
After all it is free
After all it is free
horizon,
There are also convenience issues for example with the dukes you need to take the ski off to change into touring mode. Step in bindings (Duke / Fritschi) are easier to get into than Dynafits. Dynafits aren't generally designed for jumps.
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DB wrote:
horizon,
There are also convenience issues for example with the dukes you need to take the ski off to change into touring mode. Step in bindings (Duke / Fritschi) are easier to get into than Dynafits. Dynafits aren't generally designed for jumps.
I'm not a tourer, so forgive the dumb question, but surely you have to remove your ski in order to add/remove skins, so what difference does it make wrt dukes and changing them into touring mode???
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kitenski wrote:
DB wrote:
horizon,
There are also convenience issues for example with the dukes you need to take the ski off to change into touring mode. Step in bindings (Duke / Fritschi) are easier to get into than Dynafits. Dynafits aren't generally designed for jumps.
I'm not a tourer, so forgive the dumb question, but surely you have to remove your ski in order to add/remove skins, so what difference does it make wrt dukes and changing them into touring mode???
There are certain situations when you want to lock the heels but leave the skins on (e.g. skiing with skins on very short & slight descents - traversing a ridgeline with up and down sections springs to mind). Some people can take their skins off without taking their skis off. Taking the skins off for each other isn't an option with Dukes.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
cheers for the explanation DB,
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I think it's down to strength as well as fitness, surely?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Haggis_Trap,
Quote:
telemark or dynafit come close though...)
Hmm, not sure about this.. My tele setup (T1s, Superloops) is heavier than Mrs Ski's Denali and Fritschi Alpine system. With Fritschis she also gets brakes, integrated crampon with the binding, and boots that will easily take a crampon. I love tele, but for the alps, my next setup will be Dynafit.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
DB wrote:
Some people can take their skins off without taking their skis off.
Yes it's possible but probably only a very few outside the rando racing community can manage this.
I can't check that video at the moment but I think there is another on Wildsnow somewhere.
Personally, I don't think having to step out of the bindings to change mode is all that much of a hassle. Inconvenient, certainly but, in the grand scheme of things then I'd worry about other things first. I like the convenience of the flick-down harscheisen on my Fritschis but others are quite happy with normal ones.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
altis,
Agree on the skins, step out and harscheisen points - as I said only convenience issues.
Suspect that many have historically used Fritschi mainly because in the past there weren't many downhill orientated Dynafit boots. That's changing now and dynafit is probably the best solution for most ski tourers.
If however you have only one pair of skis to do everything it's hard to beat a Fritschi setup.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
DB wrote:
If however you have only one pair of skis to do everything it's hard to beat a Fritschi setup.
Sorry it's question afternoon, but why do you rate the Fritschi over the Markers???
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Fritschi Freeride: Touring orientated step-in binding. Easy to use. Compatible with all boots. Light weight : around 1kg each. Been around for years so many annoyances have been ironed out. Variety of options / extras available. At least 50% of tourers use them so, if you do have a breakage on tour, you've the best chance of fixing them.
http://www.wildsnow.com/backcountry-ski-museum/fritschi-freeride-plus/fritschi-freeride-plus.html
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Fritschi Freeride X: very robust and really functions like an ordinary downhill ski binding - some touring bindings move a bit under stress, I'm told.
The only downside I've discovered compared to normal alpine bindings is that you need to press down very firmly and accurately at right angles to the ski to get into them. This can be a big problem if your ski comes off on a very steep slope (especially off piste).
I only do short skins to get to good slopes so I just about manage with the weight. The downhill is the point for me. If I were a tourer I'd probably go for a lighter ski since I'm 61 and rather unfit.
Every 1kg of weight on the feet is equivalent to an extra 5kg in the pack.
or on the belly .
Ok, ok, I'll buy helium-filled bindings then
LOL. I used to look for lightweight things for hiking then I realised that I was carrying several additional unneeded kilos before I even considered the equipment I was carrying.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
kitenski wrote:
DB wrote:
If however you have only one pair of skis to do everything it's hard to beat a Fritschi setup.
Sorry it's question afternoon, but why do you rate the Fritschi over the Markers???
Mainly because the Fritschis are lighter along with being tried and tested. The markers are new and did have a problem with fore/aft movement but maybe this is fixed now. Heard the markers also "chew" (damage) the touring sole and clicking in/out with touring soles is not always easy. The marker has only one climbing position whereas the frizschi has 3. Markers are better for big expert skiers who need a DIN over 12.
The flight surcharges on skis probably work against traveling with multiple skis. One solution might be to go for Markers and a sturdy ski which could be used for short day tours but have touring boots that can also accept dynafit bindings so touring skis with dynafits (or fritschi) can be rented for multiday tours.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 9-10-09 9:36; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
snowball wrote:
Fritschi Freeride X: very robust and really functions like an ordinary downhill ski binding - some touring bindings move a bit under stress, I'm told.
The only downside I've discovered compared to normal alpine bindings is that you need to press down very firmly and accurately at right angles to the ski to get into them. This can be a big problem if your ski comes off on a very steep slope (especially off piste).
I only do short skins to get to good slopes so I just about manage with the weight. The downhill is the point for me. If I were a tourer I'd probably go for a lighter ski since I'm 61 and rather unfit.
According to many other tourers the Marker Duke and Dynafit bindings ski better than the Fritschi.
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DB, in what way? I have not done all that much touring, but when I have, the Fritschi seemed fine for skiing.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
achilles, the Duke and Dynafit have a much more solid interface with the ski. Fritschis and (even more so) Naxos are criticised for having slop esp in the toe piece. If you put your skis on a hard surface and click into the binding it's quite easy to see the movement in the Fritschi toepiece which does not get translated directly to the ski
Doesn't make a huge difference in soft snow; makes more of a difference on hardpack.
I certainly wouldn't go back the Fritschis now. They aren't bad but there are better things out there for what I do
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
achilles wrote:
DB, in what way? I have not done all that much touring, but when I have, the Fritschi seemed fine for skiing.
Basically less flex and lower stack height, more apparent on hard pistes than softer offpiste conditions.
1. Marker Duke - People who need over 12 din. Main use = resort piste skiing with short tours (ca 1 hours climbing).
2. Fritschi - Day tours with limited piste skiing.
3. Dynafit - Multi-day tours
Fritschi is probably the best one binding solution whereas the other two would make a great two binding solution.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Arno wrote:
achilles, the Duke and Dynafit have a much more solid interface with the ski. Fritschis and (even more so) Naxos are criticised for having slop esp in the toe piece. If you put your skis on a hard surface and click into the binding it's quite easy to see the movement in the Fritschi toepiece which does not get translated directly to the ski
We saw this with 2 brand new sets last year, adjusting helped, but there was still play there even after it was screwed right down........
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Arno,
Do you use your dynafits when piste skiing, if so how much hassle is clicking in / out ?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I got the Naxo as I felt it had less slop than the Fritschi...but I haven't done a proper test.
1st Marker Duke
——————– (19 units deflection from vertical*)
2nd Dynafit
——————– (20 units deflection from vertical)
3rd Fritschi Freeride Plus (2006 model with black toe wings and red support plate under binding)
————————– (26 units deflection…)
4th Fritschi Freeride (2004 model with white toe wings)
————————— (27 units deflection…)
for comparison: Marker M1100 Titanium alpine binding
—————————- (28 units deflection…)
5th Naxo Nx21
—————————– (29 units deflection…)
6th Silvretta Pure Freeride
———————————– (35 units deflection, measured virtually the same as other Pure models)
7th Silvretta Pure Performance
———————————— (36 units deflection, 07/08 model has solid carbon rails instead of hollow, should be slightly stiffer)
8th Naxo NX01
——————————————- (45 units deflection…)
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thank you DB, now my bindings are both heavier and more sloppy!
(Well I DO have Dukes also).
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
DB, the dynafits have been on my dedicated touring skis but will be getting swapped to a more all round ski this year for everyday use. that said, the piste skiing will be getting back to the lift after an off piste run type of thing
getting into them is a bit of a nack but most of the time OK. it's pretty easy if you are on a flat hard bit of snow like you get around a lift station. less so if you are balanced on a platform you have kicked in a 45* slope but necessity is the mother of invention!
to give an idea of what these things can stand up to, I was in La Grave last year and saw Ptor Spricenieks on his set up of dynafits plus BD megawatts. he would do the Pan de Rideau in a maximum of 10 turns top to bottom then straightline the mogully traverse back to P1. if they can take that sort of beating they can probably take what I will dish out
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Arno, thanks for the info. I must admit the skis did rattle around a bit on the hard stuff, but I had put that down to the conditions/skis, rather than the bindings themselves.
Arno,
On a performance per pound (weight) basis the dynafits are really impressive and I will probably get a dynafit setup in the future but it would mean new boots and bindings (probably new skis too) - ca €1200 There's still life in my old gear so I'll wear them out first though.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
DB, now there are some beefy boots with dynafit inserts they are a pretty compelling offering IMV
their release isn't up there with proper alpine bindings but it isn't so bad as to be a big worry for me
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
mine too
After all it is free
After all it is free
horizon wrote:
I got the Naxo as I felt it had less slop than the Fritschi...but I haven't done a proper test.
I agree with this... used a pr of older Naxo's and preferred them to FR+'s.. the connect to the ski was more solid and the stack height was on two bars as opposed to the one of FR.. so I felt more connected. The toe piece was better and more solid but there was just too much plastic in the whole binding IMO. IIRC, the binding was 01 or 02's...???
The stack height thing was just a first impression though as you got used to this on the FR+'s after a while..
The Duke is a beast and a whole different league but it is heavy. If you think you can cowboy uphill for an hour on these things for the jollies on the way down, then that is their forte, IMV and worth it.
I run the Duke on an ISO sole as I am still feeling the way with them... and I prefer the flatter sole pattern plus the fact that ISO is a lot lighter than Vibram on my boots..
I do think the heel set-up on the Dukes is critical and you need to get know how they work as a lot of shops aren't going to be much better informed...possibly, in the relatively short space of time them have been out.
I have had two foward falls where the binding didn't release, one I got away with and the other put me out of action for a couple of days..
What would clean up would be a bomber but lighter weight AT binding, they are getting there with the boots so hopefully the bindings will be next..
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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are dynafits the one with little studs on the binding that fit into the boot??
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yip. if youve got tourer boots with little dimples in the toe and a hooky gouge (thats technical) in the heel they`ll pop into a set of dynafits. Although I think theres some g3 models out there that use the fitting now?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) but managed 800m+ height gain with alpine boots, dukes and legend pros last season and it didn't kill me. it is quite noticeable how much lighter my dynafit setup is though.
.
There's still life in my old gear so I'll wear them out first though.
