 Poster: A snowHead
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Anyone ever bought a copied DVD or worse still copied one themselves before taking it back to the rental shop?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Kenzie wrote: |
2) Use your season pass to buy a considerably discounted week pass in the other resort.
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That's interesting... I didn't realise that was possible... Any idea what discount you get? Can anyone else confirm this? I can't find any details on the web...
| Kenzie wrote: |
3) Use your free days that you get with a season pass (last season the Espace season pass gave 2 for Paradski, 2 for 3 Valleys & 1 for Saint Foy - uped to 2 during the season), then get discounted pass for remaning days.
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I've heard people mention it, but I can't find details about next season... Does anyone know what you get bundled with the 09/10 3V season pass?
(It's nice to see someone actually has something constructive to say in amongst all the flames!)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Helen Beaumont, My apologies, I misunderstood your post 
achilles, Hmm, Libel 
pam w, Suggest you look for threads about how to take more luggage/kit than paid for without paying more cash etc.. 
Kel, Really funny, PMSL 
stoatsbrother, thanks for your support 
saikee, geeo, thanks for the suggestion but walking up would kill me 
One final note for the avoidance of doubt. I am not going to purchase a season pass and pass it on when I go home therefore no lift companies profits will be harmed thanks to the kind and helpful advice of the majority of  on here. Over to you d.brophy,
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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alex_heney, they DO check, and it IS fraud
Yep, got that! many thanks again! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Legislation for France (the law in the Suisse Romande seems to be similar). Basically you can be fined 5x the daily lift pass cost plus resorts will confiscate the pass. You either pay on the spot or within a couple of months but this will cause an additional charge.
Some will give the season pass back to the holder but may levy a charge if the holder was part of the fraud, for the PDS this was 190 euros. I guess if you hadn't already reported the pass as lost they would tend to levy this charge.
In the sales contract (which is not the law of course):-
Some resorts will ban you for life.
Some resorts threaten to take matters further.
I heard that la Clusaz had quite aggresive controls on the slopes of lift passes using hand held readers and were also checking ID. I guess other resort may do likewise although I've never encountered it.
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Article R. 342-20
Le fait pour toute personne d'utiliser une remontée mécanique ou tapis roulant sans titre de transport ou muni d'un titre de transport non valable est puni de l'amende prévue pour les contraventions de la troisième classe.
Pour les infractions prévues à l'alinéa précédent, le montant de l'indemnité forfaitaire prévue par l'article 529-4 du code de procédure pénale est fixé à cinq fois la valeur du forfait journalier correspondant à la remontée mécanique ou au tapis roulant considéré, ou, à défaut, à cinq fois la valeur du billet aller et retour sur cette remontée mécanique ou ce tapis roulant. Le montant de cette indemnité forfaitaire est arrondi à l'euro immédiatement supérieur.
Article 529-4
La transaction est réalisée par le versement à l'exploitant d'une indemnité forfaitaire et, le cas échéant, de la somme due au titre du transport.
I. - Ce versement est effectué :
1 Soit, au moment de la constatation de l'infraction, entre les mains de l'agent de l'exploitant ;
2 Soit, dans un délai de deux mois à compter de la constatation de l'infraction, auprès du service de l'exploitant indiqué dans la proposition de transaction ; dans ce dernier cas, il y est ajouté aux sommes dues le montant des frais de constitution du dossier.
A défaut de paiement immédiat entre ses mains, l'agent de l'exploitant est habilité à recueillir le nom et l'adresse du contrevenant ; en cas de besoin, il peut requérir l'assistance d'un officier ou d'un agent de police judiciaire.
Le montant de l'indemnité forfaitaire et, le cas échéant, celui des frais de constitution du dossier sont acquis à l'exploitant.
II. - A défaut de paiement immédiat entre leurs mains, les agents de l'exploitant, s'ils ont été agréés par le procureur de la République et assermentés, sont habilités à relever l'identité et l'adresse du contrevenant.
Si le contrevenant refuse ou se trouve dans l'impossibilité de justifier de son identité, l'agent de l'exploitant en rend compte immédiatement à tout officier de police judiciaire de la police nationale ou de la gendarmerie nationale territorialement compétent, qui peut alors lui ordonner sans délai de lui présenter sur-le-champ le contrevenant. A défaut de cet ordre, l'agent de l'exploitant ne peut retenir le contrevenant. Lorsque l'officier de police judiciaire mentionné au présent alinéa décide de procéder à une vérification d'identité, dans les conditions prévues à l'article 78-3, le délai prévu au troisième alinéa de cet article court à compter du relevé d'identité.
Il est mis fin immédiatement à la procédure prévue à l'alinéa précédent si le contrevenant procède au versement de l'indemnité forfaitaire.
III. - Les conditions d'application du II du présent article sont fixées par décret en Conseil d'Etat. Ce décret précise notamment les conditions dans lesquelles les agents de l'exploitant doivent, aux frais de ce dernier, suivre une formation spécifique afin de pouvoir obtenir l'agrément délivré par le procureur de la République. Il définit en outre les conditions dans lesquelles le représentant de l'Etat approuve l'organisation que l'exploitant arrête aux fins d'assurer les contrôles précités et les modalités de coordination et de transmission d'informations entre l'exploitant et la police ou la gendarmerie nationales. |
Some notes. Only Police (incl Gendarmes) and certain other authorized officials are allowed to demand your address, not necessarily any old liftie. If you offer to pay the fine on the spot they are not entitled to ask for ID according to the above articles (this seems to be the case on the ground).
It is a lift pass, not a piste pass. So while skiing around the piste keep the pass in an RFID proof bag then the roving patrols can't check it. Say you climbed up on foot. That limits the controls to the lift gates although as has been pointed out your encoded photo will show up on a monitor so make sure you look like the pass holder if you do this.
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| d.brophy wrote: |
| Kenzie wrote: |
2) Use your season pass to buy a considerably discounted week pass in the other resort.
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That's interesting... I didn't realise that was possible... Any idea what discount you get? Can anyone else confirm this? I can't find any details on the web...
| Kenzie wrote: |
3) Use your free days that you get with a season pass (last season the Espace season pass gave 2 for Paradski, 2 for 3 Valleys & 1 for Saint Foy - uped to 2 during the season), then get discounted pass for remaning days.
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I've heard people mention it, but I can't find details about next season... Does anyone know what you get bundled with the 09/10 3V season pass?
(It's nice to see someone actually has something constructive to say in amongst all the flames!) |
Suspect the deals would be reciprocal (so you'd get 2 days fre in Espace), but ask at the lift company's main office in your resort when you buy your season pass.
NOTE these freedays/discounts were only available to people with full season passes ie not those with worker's passes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
It is a lift pass, not a piste pass. So while skiing around the piste keep the pass in an RFID proof bag then the roving patrols can't check it. Say you climbed up on foot. |
If the skier is on normal (not touring) bindings the patrols might find that a bit hard to believe! 
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| If the skier is on normal (not touring) bindings the patrols might find that a bit hard to believe! |
"I walked up in October officer"?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
NOTE these freedays/discounts were only available to people with full season passes ie not those with worker's passes.
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Stingy barstids. Workers pass here gives you all the same entitlements as the full price ticket.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The few people I know who have had workers passes have only had area passes.
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You know it makes sense.
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Kel, that's because either a) their employer would only pay for a local pass or b) they didn't want/couldn't afford a full area pass. If you're talking about the three valleys, there's no such thing as a discounted 3V season pass for anyone, worker or otherwise.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Lizzard,
Think it is A and yes it was 3V. The same people the next season were in ADH, my 6day pass was valid for L2A theirs wasn't. But to be fair they had been over once and weren't prepared to pay to go again, can't say I blame them on the pitance they were getting paid.
So I have skied areas in 6 days that they haven't in a season  :nice
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Poster: A snowHead
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It was the post above that jogged my memory and after all I have posted re the OP.
When in Les Menuires this year in a group of around 100 people the lift pass which was part of the package was the les menuires area pass. Most of us paid around €50 to upgrade to full 3V, also upgraded my son who was a bit strapped at the time who wouldn't have bothered otherwise. However quite a few mainly younger people on the tour did not upgrade. One day a group of the younger ones were going to pay the €20 or so upgrade, on hearing this about 6 of us said No don't bother doing that, just swap with us for the day. As these had no photo's on them their was no chance of being detected and at the time I never give it a second thought and you know what I would do it again. I didn't profit from it neither did anyone else, it was just a way of giving the kids the opportunity to explore the full area if only for a day, but technically it's not much different to what the OP is/was proposing.
So guilty as charged, but come on how many people on here would not do the same thing in the same circumstances !!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well apart from being posted 2 full days after I made my comment 
Close, but not quite, I think.
He was asking a question about what was allowed, not trying to find ways of bypassing what he should pay.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Kel wrote: |
It was the post above that jogged my memory and after all I have posted re the OP.
When in Les Menuires this year in a group of around 100 people the lift pass which was part of the package was the les menuires area pass. Most of us paid around €50 to upgrade to full 3V, also upgraded my son who was a bit strapped at the time who wouldn't have bothered otherwise. However quite a few mainly younger people on the tour did not upgrade. One day a group of the younger ones were going to pay the €20 or so upgrade, on hearing this about 6 of us said No don't bother doing that, just swap with us for the day. As these had no photo's on them their was no chance of being detected and at the time I never give it a second thought and you know what I would do it again. I didn't profit from it neither did anyone else, it was just a way of giving the kids the opportunity to explore the full area if only for a day, but technically it's not much different to what the OP is/was proposing.
So guilty as charged, but come on how many people on here would not do the same thing in the same circumstances !!! |
I take that you're talking about a 6-day pass? If so, it really is quite different to what the OP is proposing, because season passes are way cheaper than the equivalent weekly ones. Indeed, for many resorts, a season pass bought with an early-purchase discount is around the same price as four six-day passes, if not less. So you can see the potential for considerable fraud there. And that is, of course, what the lift companies are looking out for, rather than the 'let's swap passes for a day on our one-week holiday' people...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Jo225, Yes I know all this but technically what we did was not much different to what the OP is proposing, albeit on a much smaller scale and never once did I feel I was cheating anyone and My conscience is definitely clear. All we did was save the kids some cash, so instead of giving the cash to the lift company, they handed it over in a bar for some overpriced lager.
But technically what we did was defraud the lift company, but morally what we did was OK.
Thats my point.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Kel wrote: |
| But technically what we did was defraud the lift company, but morally what we did was OK. |
Er, yes you did & no it wasn't. Look, I'm not casting the first stone here, we all do dodgy things & justify them to ourselves, but it doesn't make it right.
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| robboj wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
Well apart from being posted 2 full days after I made my comment
Close, but not quite, I think.
He was asking a question about what was allowed, not trying to find ways of bypassing what he should pay. |
Alex Heney, I did not respond because there have been so many threads containing posts of the type that the last three posts of the thread that sherlock235 linked to. I must have read the same thing a dozen times every winter. Therefore I found your comment to be rather disingenious and decided not to reply.
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Thank you for the gratuitous insult.
I ask for examples, but even though you know of plenty, you decide not to reply because I am lying by asking the question?
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The poster wonders about taking 3 pairs of skis in a bag having only paid for one pair. It seems quite clear to me that he knows what is allowed as he even quotes from the T&C's. The next post suggests to him that he might chance it as the poster has never had their bag opened?
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He is asking whether he is likely to be charged for 3 pieces, even though they are packed as one and come under the lmiit.
He isn't asking how to defraud them, he is asking what their actual policy is.
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IMHO there is no difference between discussing defrauding Air Canada of (apparently) 450 Canadian dollars of excess baggage charges and defrauding a lift company by sharing or exchanging a season pass.
I am not critiscising either of the posters on the other thread. I did not post a reply on that thread as I have nothing to say on the matter, not least because I have never flown Air Canada. All they did was discuss the the subject on a forum, which is, after all, what it is for.
I would be interested to hear why you feel the two topics deserve to be treated differently? |
I don't particularly feel they should be treated differently, although I don't think the situations are quite the same.
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| Quote: |
But technically what we did was defraud the lift company, but morally what we did was OK.
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Er, no. You defrauded the company, as you say. Theft is wrong, therefore what you did was morally wrong. You just decided that it was to your advantage and you'd probably get away with it. Do it if you like, but don't delude yourself as well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
But technically what we did was defraud the lift company, but morally what we did was OK.
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Er, no. You defrauded the company, as you say. Theft is wrong, therefore what you did was morally wrong. You just decided that it was to your advantage and you'd probably get away with it. Do it if you like, but don't delude yourself as well. |
I personally gained no advantage, on the contrary, didn't even accept the beer the young lad thought he was duly bound to offer me.
Not deluding myself, I know it is wrong, but as I say in these circumstances I would do it again. The lift passes were bulk purchases from a TO and to my knowledge did not even have names on them.
IMHO what is wrong is what the lift pass company's charge for a single day extension after they have already releived you of around €180 for a 6 day pass and before anyone post's yes I know it is down to choice.
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My, there's some high horses around on this thread! A bit of a shame really, as I've read many enlightening posts by the regulars on other threads.
I think youspurs1 hit the nail on the head when he said:
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It's nice that we're such a fine, honest bunch on here...wouldn't dream of bending/breaking rules to save money, and if someone suggests some skiing related skullduggery we flame them.
Question. How many s have used the discount code for Holiday Autos, without actually having a One Account? I don't see any flaming happening here when someone asks for this link. |
I don't condone fraud in any way. I have used the Holiday Autos discount code in the past, but to be honest didn't feel particularly comfortable about it this year and haven't used it. However jumping on someone who is asking something which in their mind is a perfectly reasonable question is not the way to go - certain overtones of cliquey gangland behaviour. alex_heney, the thread that sherlock235 mentioned is a perfect example of the many, many threads on here that ask similar questions.
Enough with the character assassination peeps.
d.brophy, robboj, I'll be out in the Grand Massif again this season with a season pass, and may take advantage of the free days that this gives me in other resorts. Definitely check these offers out as they may well cover you for a week skiing in a few other locations. And if you're over in the GM then let me know - and I'll drink a beer with you, not throw it at you!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
Thank you for the gratuitous insult.
I ask for examples, but even though you know of plenty, you decide not to reply because I am lying by asking the question?
He is asking whether he is likely to be charged for 3 pieces, even though they are packed as one and come under the lmiit.
He isn't asking how to defraud them, he is asking what their actual policy is.
I don't particularly feel they should be treated differently, although I don't think the situations are quite the same. |
No insult intended, gratuitous or otherwise. I think you are at the wind up and decided not to bite on Saturday, probably against my better judgement I did bite last night.
He knows what the policy is, he quotes the T&C's. To use your words he knows what is allowed. For that matter the OP of this thread also knew what was allowed and was also asking how or if a policy was enforced.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Kel wrote: |
It was the post above that jogged my memory and after all I have posted re the OP.
When in Les Menuires this year in a group of around 100 people the lift pass which was part of the package was the les menuires area pass. Most of us paid around €50 to upgrade to full 3V, also upgraded my son who was a bit strapped at the time who wouldn't have bothered otherwise. However quite a few mainly younger people on the tour did not upgrade. One day a group of the younger ones were going to pay the €20 or so upgrade, on hearing this about 6 of us said No don't bother doing that, just swap with us for the day. As these had no photo's on them their was no chance of being detected and at the time I never give it a second thought and you know what I would do it again. I didn't profit from it neither did anyone else, it was just a way of giving the kids the opportunity to explore the full area if only for a day, but technically it's not much different to what the OP is/was proposing.
So guilty as charged, but come on how many people on here would not do the same thing in the same circumstances !!! |
Aren't shorter duration passes (where they don't ask for name and address or take a photo at purchase) generally regarded by the lift companies as transferrable anyway? Certainly the shorter duration non consecutives in Chamonix are, whereas the same pass for a longer duration are not.
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d.brophy,
Presumably this is a joke or you have an IQ of 40?
If you try your scheme in Austria your end up with a €5000 (min) fine, jail time & criminal record.
Goodluck
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| robboj wrote: |
He knows what the policy is, he quotes the T&C's. To use your words he knows what is allowed. For that matter the OP of this thread also knew what was allowed and was also asking how or if a policy was enforced. |
I still don't think they are quite the same.
One was asking if he would actually get stung for excess baggage, the other was asking if he could get away with defrauding the lift company.
I also feel that the situations would be different anyhow, in that if you pay for luggage on an aircraft, you should be paying for x kilos in y bags with maximum dimensions of z. And it shouldn't in the least matter what is actually inside those bags (provided it is things which are legal to take on an aircraft of course).
So the rules should be along the lines of "you get 1 piece of luggage, maximum 15Kg, maximum dimensions 65*45*30. If you pay an extra £30 for ski carriage, then you get a 2nd bag, maximum dimensions 190*20*20, and an additional weight allowance of 10Kg"
With long term lift passes, you get them at a significant discount over buying shorter term passes adding up to the same, but you only get that discount because the pass is intended to be used only by one person, and they know that most people will not use the pass every day.
As I say, I don't think the differences are necessarily sufficient that people asking should be treated differently, but they are different IMO.
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Poster: A snowHead
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In Whistler (the only season passes I've owned I'm afraid so don't know how it works elsewhere), if someone else gets caught using your pass - not only do they get banned, but the owner of the pass gets a hefty fine automatically applied to their credit card no matter what the excuse for someone else having it. This is made _very_ clear in the Ts & Cs "I dropped it and someone else must have picked it up" doesn't get you off the fine, though I presume they would at least give you a reasonable amount of time to let them know you had lost it?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| Kel wrote: |
It was the post above that jogged my memory and after all I have posted re the OP.
When in Les Menuires this year in a group of around 100 people the lift pass which was part of the package was the les menuires area pass. Most of us paid around €50 to upgrade to full 3V, also upgraded my son who was a bit strapped at the time who wouldn't have bothered otherwise. However quite a few mainly younger people on the tour did not upgrade. One day a group of the younger ones were going to pay the €20 or so upgrade, on hearing this about 6 of us said No don't bother doing that, just swap with us for the day. As these had no photo's on them their was no chance of being detected and at the time I never give it a second thought and you know what I would do it again. I didn't profit from it neither did anyone else, it was just a way of giving the kids the opportunity to explore the full area if only for a day, but technically it's not much different to what the OP is/was proposing.
So guilty as charged, but come on how many people on here would not do the same thing in the same circumstances !!! |
Aren't shorter duration passes (where they don't ask for name and address or take a photo at purchase) generally regarded by the lift companies as transferrable anyway? Certainly the shorter duration non consecutives in Chamonix are, whereas the same pass for a longer duration are not. |
Don't any of you Alpine dwellers out there know a definative yes/no on this? Is a, for example, 6 day consecutive pass deemed to be transferable?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
Don't any of you Alpine dwellers out there know a definative yes/no on this? Is a, for example, 6 day consecutive pass deemed to be transferable? |
No they are not tranferable, not even day or afternoon passes, at least not in the T&C. This doesn't mean the T&C are enforceable.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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ive never seen anyone 'derobed' to have their pass checked but then ive not skied much in france, that bastion of anti corruption,.. i can see why the season passes are up for closer scrutiny.. 6 dayers etc would be fair game for swapping around i imagine..
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davidof sorry, just seen your post above. Out of interest any comment on the Chamonix non consecutives?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CANV CANVINGTON, fair game yes, but the game should not be played out on the moral high ground 
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Chamonix le Pass - 5 day non consecutive (transferable unless student discounted) - 10 or 15 day non consec (non transferable, pic required).
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FAQ
