 Poster: A snowHead
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I can certainly understand European skiers who prefer the American patrolled off-piste since they cannot afford a guide. It takes a while with guides (and books) to learn enough to go off-piste in Europe fairly safely, even skiing the more obviously safe lines.
However I would agree with frank4short that, from my relatively narrow experience (one week each Whistler, Jackson Hole and Heli), if you enjoy adventurous off-piste it is hard to get anything equivalent to good European off-piste in North America without a fair amount of skinning (or flying or Cat). Although I like the big descents it is the level of adventure - the steeps and untracked slopes well away from all the pistes - which I love. I must admit I have been unlucky with snow in N America, but it seems to me that the inbounds off-piste is skied out within a day, a situation you don't get in Europe - except near the pistes in the resorts known for off-piste. (I tend to avoid places like Chamonix now, since they get tracked out, relatively, so quickly - which becomes relevant if you hit a bad period for new snow).
As I just mentioned on the off-piste thread I was surprised in Jackson Hole which does allow back-country skiing, how few Americans ski the out of bounds when the inbounds are skied out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stoatsbrother,
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But the idea that digging a snow pit will tell you enough about a run over 1000m... or do you dig a pit every 100m?
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Not even every 100m. We dug three Rusch blocks about 10m apart last winter and got totally different results, the aspect of the slope had barely changed between them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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abc, Indeed - and at JH a lot of the bits that people ski when the powder is good are not bits out the gates off the top of the tram - but the bits from hiking headwall etc. and various bits hidden rather well which you would not know about without being shown them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Simple fact - most of NA gets in inches what Europe gets in cms.
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So THIS is why they've never adopted the metric system.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| Simple fact - most of NA gets in inches what Europe gets in cms. |
Are we talking about snow, or about bu11sh1t? 
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| abc wrote: |
| snowball wrote: |
| As I just mentioned on the off-piste thread I was surprised in Jackson Hole which does allow back-country skiing, how few Americans ski the out of bounds when the inbounds are skied out. |
It's very much a culture thing. In N America, there're back country skiers (minority) who happily skin their way away from the resorts. Then, there're just skiers (majority) who will ski anything on or off piste but inbounds.
The "side country" is still a relatively new peice of land that didn't used to open to the public. It wasn't that long ago when resort used to take your pass away if you cross the boundry. The "open boundry" policy is probably only 10 or so year old. It's getting more popular and people are waking up on it. But you'll have a few more season before they got skied out. So enjoy it while you still can.
On the flip side, the urge to go out of bound is reduced when you have frequent powder to play with in inbound off-piste.  |
When I was in Jackson the inbounds was all like skiing pistes (it had snowed a day before we arrived) and much of the side-country was wind-blown crust (the rest had one good slope with heavy powder on the first day or so, which required a few traverses and a walk up to get to it). The back country, however had good powder and all the descents into Granite canyon were worth doing (though the top of one required a bit of a scramble accross a rocky top section first). However, going out of the first gate from the tram on our second day, there were no tracks at all and even a week later on our last day, going out of a gate much further to the right, we did our own variant so soon left the few tracks behind and saw no more till we got to the trail out, by the river.
Despite nearly 4 weeks skiing in North America I have not experienced a snow fall so cannot comment on the amazing snow people go on about..
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
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| Simple fact - most of NA gets in inches what Europe gets in cms. |
Are we talking about snow, or about bu11sh1t? |
Annual average snowfall chamonix 264inches
Annual average snowfall Jackson Hole 300 inches
Annual average snowfall Heavenly (Lake Tahoe) 320 inches
So yes american resorts do get more snowfall but i don't think most NA resorts get that much more snow than is claimed.
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| snowball wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| snowball wrote: |
| As I just mentioned on the off-piste thread I was surprised in Jackson Hole which does allow back-country skiing, how few Americans ski the out of bounds when the inbounds are skied out. |
It's very much a culture thing. In N America, there're back country skiers (minority) who happily skin their way away from the resorts. Then, there're just skiers (majority) who will ski anything on or off piste but inbounds.
The "side country" is still a relatively new peice of land that didn't used to open to the public. It wasn't that long ago when resort used to take your pass away if you cross the boundry. The "open boundry" policy is probably only 10 or so year old. It's getting more popular and people are waking up on it. But you'll have a few more season before they got skied out. So enjoy it while you still can.
On the flip side, the urge to go out of bound is reduced when you have frequent powder to play with in inbound off-piste. |
When I was in Jackson the inbounds was all like skiing pistes (it had snowed a day before we arrived) and much of the side-country was wind-blown crust (the rest had one good slope with heavy powder on the first day or so, which required a few traverses and a walk up to get to it). The back country, however had good powder and all the descents into Granite canyon were worth doing (though the top of one required a bit of a scramble accross a rocky top section first). However, going out of the first gate from the tram on our second day, there were no tracks at all and even a week later on our last day, going out of a gate much further to the right, we did our own variant so soon left the few tracks behind and saw no more till we got to the trail out, by the river. |
Unless you were there during holiday period, I'm quite surprised you find all the inbound skied "like piste".
I was also there during a period of little new snow. But we were able to find several area of soft powder. I'm not a particularly expert skier. Still, I was able to find quite a bit of soft snow in the trees. Granted, I was there as part of a rether large group which broke up into smaller groups. So at the end of the day we can share good areas each had "discovered".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's also surpprising to hear that just because snow has tracks through it, snowball, hould regard it as being "like piste". I like powder as much as the next person, but I don't primarily head for NA's bowls and double blacks for the powder - that's an unpredictable bonus that I can't rely on enjoying on any given day, although it's very unlucky to find none at all during an entire holiday. It's the quality of the terrain that I enjoy in NA.
We went to Zermatt last year, and although we had a great time, we were dismayed by the lack of challenging skiing within the piste network. We skiied every open itineraire route in the resort, and, although some were genuinely memorable, none offered terrain that was remotely close to quality of trail that we'd enoyed in Panorama the previous year - no glades, no pitches of challenging steepness, no undergrowth to divert us and no sneaky rocks to doge past (although we did discover soome epic mogul fields  ). OK, we could have hired a guide. But, besides the cost, we like to ski in the privacy of our family unit - we really didn't want to invite a stranger into our family holiday.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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pinhead, there are blacks in Europe which I have not seen groomed. The Grand Couloir at Les Deux Alpes, and the Tunnel at Aple D'Huez for example. I wouldn't call either of those 'tamed blacks'.
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You know it makes sense.
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frank4short,
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Annual average snowfall chamonix 264inches
Annual average snowfall Jackson Hole 300 inches
Annual average snowfall Heavenly (Lake Tahoe) 320 inches
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As a matter of interest where do you get your figures from? I have never been able to find a reliable source for snowfall figures for European resorts.
Where do they measure the snowfall? VIllage, intermediate height or top of Aiguille Midi?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| It's also surpprising to hear that just because snow has tracks through it, snowball, hould regard it as being "like piste". . |
No, while we were there it was not a case of tracked slopes but just hard surfaces with moguls and no powder (ie like ungroomed pistes). Only on our first day and on the edges of some of the steepest gullies (such as Alta chutes) did we find some merely tracked snow. The actual quality of the piste-like snow was quite nice on the first day because the snow was only 2 days old, although judging by the side country which had been scoured by wind in many places and had stones poking through, similar winds must have affected many parts of the inbounds. The back into Granite, however, other than sometimes right at the top of the ridge, and one small slope of breakable crust lower down, was quite OK powder. The back country beyond that which was only accessible by skinning and where we spent one day we didn't see a single track. (we were over-ambitious with a 3 hour skin out to return to the top of the side country, and arrived back to Jackson village in the dark (6.30pm) which was quite an adventure. But personally, as I said, I like to do wild skiing but not too much walking.
At Whistler where it had snowed the day before we arrived we did find several areas of tracked snow to ski and, at first, even a route through a wood and then under a lift where we made almost the first tracks (so we did it 4 times till it was well tracked). I thought the steeps there were (almost) as good as Jackson and personally I prefered "Extremely Canadian" to the JH "Steep and Deep camp because the latter had just got too big and I was wanting guiding rather than instruction". Consequently we skipped the last day of the latter to do powder in Granite canyon again.
I cannot really judge the back-country at Whistler because, on the one day we spent there, though everything we skied was crust or breakable crust and had to be walked up before we could ski down, we concluded that the person who took us there didn't really know it very well and was playing extremely safe. I gather, from things said here, there is good back country which doesn't require lots of walking.
However I was really put-off JH since the choice, if one was unlucky with the snow on the front of the mountain, seemed to be to ski on one's own and then walk out. The guide we talked to said they were not allowed to go into Granite and beyond due to n agreement with the National park (and the Steep and Deep instructors were not even allowed to take us in the side country). Consequently we had to go on our own with a map (one of our group had been before).
My (probably, unless I inherit a fortune) life-time one and only experience of Heli (at Stewart, BC, by the Alaskan border) though tremendously expensive and really not good value, packed in a lot of skiing far into the wilds. Unfortunately they had had high winds, as they had on the back at Whistler, and the top half of the skiing was all breakable crust. The skiing down amoung the trees, however, was great, though there was nothing particularly steep - for that I'd probably need to do Alaska. Sure, the mountains were small, but it is the quality of the skiing I'm most concerned with and I do love tree skiing (We did a lot of that in the Dolomites last year because of high avalanche danger, but the trees were wider spaced in Canada.) The guides said it was about the worst conditions they had ever had, but we couldn't persuade them to land us lower down near the trees because it would have been un-economic to do more, even shorter lifts.
Of course it is possible to have a bad experience of snow anywhere (my last trip to Chamonix was dreadful, no snow for a while and everything had been blasted by exceptionally high winds (80kph in places I was told) and the guide had to take us through to Italy, which was better). In an area like that, known for its off piste there is a problem of more accessible snow getting skied out (though not as quickly as Whistler and JC inbounds because the area is so big). Consequently I am tending to go for less well known areas now.
I have aired most of these views in other threads so sorry to those who ploughed through this and found nothing new.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 16-09-09 10:22; edited 2 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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The person who bemoaned the lack of steep pistes in Europe is right. And it gets steadily worse as fear of litigation has turned most of the steep black pistes in places like St Anton into itineraries, or even in a few cases (I think) into off piste. The equivalent to double black diamonds in Jackson can only be found off piste, and in most cases, unless you already know the area and trust your own knowledge of avalanche danger, this means using a guide. However, to those prepared to take responsibility for this (and having someone to show them where to go) or able to hire guides (only about 60 Euros a day each for a group of 6) there are huge possibilities and as much challenge as you want.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowball, I have noticed the conversion of steep blacks into itineraries too. That said, steep blacks are still around. I can think of a couple of lines down the Grand Couloir at Les Deux Alpes that would wake up even you. Mind you, IIRC on and off-piste is a bit notional there - the really steep lines may be technically off-piste.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, I don't doubt it (and I'm pleased to hear it) but I wanted to acknowledge that the guy from the US who made the comment in this thread did have a point.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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snowball,
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And it gets steadily worse as fear of litigation has turned most of the steep black pistes in places like St Anton into itineraries, or even in a few cases (I think) into off piste.
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I don't know if its fear of litigation but it has been happening in many places I have skied. The previous excellent black runs from the top of the Klosters cable car back down to Klosters have all been taken off the piste map and are no longer are marked even as Itinaires.
St Anton as you say.
Zermatt loads of blacks have been regraded itinaires
Val d'Isere/Tignes reds regraded as blacks and black runs widened to make them easier.
Definately see the appeal of the North American approach, but for me with afamily it is not currently an economic option to go there or really a timely one. Hope to go again when the kids are older and the option becomes affordable.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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T Bar, aha. That would explain why I saw on j2ski comment that the T/VDI pistes were not exceptionally graded. Quite a while since I have been there - in the old days at Tignes there were definitely runs that were distinctly sporty for their grading, compared to other resorts. The only French resorts I have skied recently are Les Deux Alpes and Val Thorens - and I don't think much downgrading has gone on there - though LDA has introduced at least one escape route.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| snowball wrote: |
| I have aired most of these views in other threads so sorry to those who ploughed through this and found nothing new. |
No need to apologise - if I didn't find it interesting, I wouldn't read it! It sounds as if we're all (apart from frank4short) saying the same thing.
Below double-diamond level, skiing in NA and Europe is broadly similar. However, many NA resorts offer single diamond gladed runs that don't have a European equivalent, and some European resorts offer runs of much greater vertical over a larger area than can be found anywhere in NA. Some of us find one or other of these distinctions important; others don't.
Off-piste in less popular European resorts and backcountry in NA are also broadly similar although no NA resorts offer the exensive vertical that's available in some European reorts. However, not all resorts in NA open up the back country or allow guides to take you there. Some of us are happy to pay for guides or to venture into this terrain unguided; others aren't. For those of us who aren't the distinctions are irrelevant.
But for those who want it, North America offers an advanced-intermediate level of skiing that simply doesn't exist in Europe - the freedom to ski marked, named, patrolled and avalanche controlled expert terrain without the presence of a guide or detailed local knowledge. The powder on these runs is often completely tracked out and large moguls might have built up in a few bottlenecks, but the skiing offers a degree of challenge - particularly regarding pitch and obstacles - that is only available off-piste in Europe. Some people don't find skiing this terrain particularly attractive; I personally love it.
It's this double-black terrain that draws me back to NA most years. frank4short, you seem to think the inbounds stuff is rubbish, and that's fine. But don't tell me that I can find it in Europe, because I can't - I've tried asking the question on Snowheads several times and no-one has ever told me of a European resort where I can enjoy this experience. If it existed, I'd be there in an instant - perhaps this is a big marketing opportunity that's being missed by the European skiing industry.
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| T Bar wrote: |
I don't know if its fear of litigation but it has been happening in many places I have skied.. |
I was told by a guide that (at least in the case of a few runs we were discussing) the cause was that if there were rocks sticking through a piste, or ice or other awkward, ungroomed snow on steep slopes, they might be liable if someone was hurt. This would mean that a large proportion of the time they would have to keep the runs closed or spend huge amounts trying to groom or maintain them in a hazard-free state (as litigeous people might now expect). In order to keep them open most of the time they simply re-graded them.
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Jonny Jones, sounds reasonable - I was just saying I wasn't sure if I can find the sort of skiing I want in America (I haven't so far) and given it costs so much to get there and I worry about my carbon footprint, I'll need some convincing to go again.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowball, Sad to see that happening in Europe - the easy Iteneraires off the top of Sunnega at Zermatt might be an example - because the US as a very litigious country manages to have rocks and trees etc etc on the piste but good laws protecting ski areas from lawsuits.
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| snowball wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
I don't know if its fear of litigation but it has been happening in many places I have skied.. |
I was told by a guide that (at least in the case of a few runs we were discussing) the cause was that if there were rocks sticking through a piste, or ice or other awkward, ungroomed snow on steep slopes, they might be liable if someone was hurt. This would mean that a large proportion of the time they would have to keep the runs closed or spend huge amounts trying to groom or maintain them in a hazard-free state (as litigeous people might now expect). In order to keep them open most of the time they simply re-graded them. |
Well, that sounds perfectly fine with me.
I've actually not quite understand the concern about itineries. I've simply equate them to the double black diamond in the States. And to be honest, some of the itineries aren't even single diamond level! (the same with regrading blues into blacks, it's really not a significant concern for me except as an amusement)
So, as long as they keep it open, what color of grading a particular run is doesn't change the skiable terrain of a resort. And that's all that matter for most of us in this thread.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| snowball, Sad to see that happening in Europe - the easy Iteneraires off the top of Sunnega at Zermatt might be an example - because the US as a very litigious country manages to have rocks and trees etc etc on the piste but good laws protecting ski areas from lawsuits. |
Europe needs to open up more itineries. That's all!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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No, kitenski, we briefly had a guide on the "steep and deep" but he simply took us down the second valley over on the "side country" (ie no climbing), which I thought was fairly pathetic - we had gone beyond that on our second day (having done a tour of the inbounds, including the Alta chutes and one of the Expert chutes, on our first day).
As I said, we were told the guides couldn't take us in the back country due to an agreement with the National Park. We did it four times, on our own with a map (and other times in side country). One of our group had done Granite (which for those who have not been is the nearest valley that runs behind the whole of the inbounds resort) a couple of times on previous visits. To go beyond Granite you have to skin, which we spent one day doing.
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You know it makes sense.
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I would agree that gourmet food options tend to be limited at NA resorts (based on my experience of six different ones, east and west coasts and Colorado). However, if you prefer to spend less than £10 per person for a quick lunch on the mountain (which I do), rather than spend a lot more for a leisurely meal, my experience has been that there are lots of very decent options at NA resorts and a lot more variety of food.
I am not talking about burgers and hot dogs or deep fried stuff (which you can certainly get if you want it). I mean TexMex stuff, or superb salads, or massive sandwiches, or gumbo, or jambalaya, or NY strip steak sandwich, or pasta. Almost anything, in fact, except tartiflette! Personally, I consider the US to be a food paradise, but if I had a bigger budget, maybe I would prefer Europe.
You would be lucky to find even a bowl of soup for £10 in Europe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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You would be lucky to find even a bowl of soup for £10 in Europe.
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Yep you are dead right there, I have never paid that much for a bowl of soup in France.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| koru wrote: |
| ....Personally, I consider the US to be a food paradise.... |
In that case it must have changed beyond recognition from the days when I used to go across there regularly in the 80s - admittedly not to ski resorts .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, I eat way better in US resorts than in European ones. On the hill is a different matter - but even then there are some cracking restaurants at the base if you go to the right place.
Food in a ski resort can go beyond steak, sausage products, gooey cheese and pasta.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
| pinhead, there are blacks in Europe which I have not seen groomed. The Grand Couloir at Les Deux Alpes, and the Tunnel at Aple D'Huez for example. I wouldn't call either of those 'tamed blacks'. |
I agree even the piste can get quite ugly by the end of the day in some European resorts, wheras in NA they are moguls fileds becasue that's how they're maintained, not because of the enourmous amount of riders on them. It was just a broad generalization, my bad.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stoatsbrother, I used to eat in pretty well-rated (non resort) US restaurants in the old days. Very good on pizaz; not so good on quality. If it's got better over there (have they truly learned that corn-fed cattle doesn't produce good steak?) then I am glad to hear it. My only experience of eating in a NA resort was in Fernie (not US, I appreciate). I don't recall any decent stop up the mountain. At the foot of the lifts, the Lizard Creek was OK, but nothing to get excited about. We ate well at night because the chalet we were in was run by a remarkable Scots chef.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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achilles, Food on the hill in Fernie is pants - same as in other RCR resorts. Lizard Creek is ok - espescailly buffet days.
Again - proibably you need to try more NA resorts.
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stoatsbrother, I could almost be persuaded to go to Jackson Hole - though snowball's posts are a discouragement. And time taken to travel and jet lag are real downers for me. And I think I have nex t season almost stitched - 2 visits to Switzerland -and the EOSB (not the best conditions - but it's such a gas).
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Can I ask another innocent USA question?
Is the lift pass much more expensive than in France?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, to be fair, I had a good time at JH in 2004. But at that time I wasn't yet at snowball's level of skiing and we only had 2 days in the resort just after a decent snowfall, so could have fun inbounds.
I'd go back but I would make sure with whom I ski (probably would try to join TGR people) and where we would go. As for snow...well, one can only keep one's fingers crossed.
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Boredsurfing, In my experience the cost of a days lift pass for an average NA resort was comparable to if not more expensive than the cost of a days pass for one of the french mega resorts e.g. cham, 3v, paradiski, etc. HOWEVER this may now be balanced out with the collapse of the dollar & sterling against the euro & each other. With that in mind though i suspect the canadian resorts are probably relatively more expensive again as they aren't being as badly affected with this economy malarkey so their currency hasn't been anywhere near as badly hit.
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FAQ
days away from phones will do that.
