 Poster: A snowHead
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I went to Whistler for four weeks one January and it snowed three times and rained once. Though having said that those powder days were truly unforgettable 
We still had a great time but you can't be any more sure of the snow over there.
Less, in fact, because it's too big to move to another resort/weather system easily as you can in the Alps. e.g. when Chamonix is bad you can go to Courmayeur for the day, or Verbier, either of which are likely to have totally different weather.
Of course you find lots of places close to each other - e.g. Breckenridge has tons of good places that are close. But I've found you don't seem to get so much of a marked microclimate in each one, as you can do in the Alps.
On the plus side they groom the slopes far, far better so it's less of a problem.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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On the downside -
The mountains are smaller, it's more expensive, the yanks spout an awful lot of shite about how great it is, you're not allowed ski outside of bounds, the food generally isn't as good, you're expected to tip for every beer, it takes so long to get there that going for a week is generally a waste of time, they're all so disgustingly pleasant
On the upside -
Lift queues are better managed, you won't have to deal with arrogant frenchies, they're all so disgustingly pleasant
On balance for me i'd take Eurp every time. Though i'm sure skiing in nth america has it's upsides i just think it's better in france/switzerland
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| frank4short wrote: |
| ...you won't have to deal with arrogant frenchies, they're all so disgustingly pleasant... |
To be fair, I have noticed quite an improvement in the French attitude to us punters recently - at LDA and VT, at least.
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If I wanted to ski groomers, I'd question whether there was much benefit to going to NA unless I was particularly drawn to its way of life (I'm not). But I want steeps, powder, glades and bumps, and a well chosen NA resort offers me far more than any European resort as I don't have the cash to hire a guide every day or the mountain knowledge to go off piste on my own.
If you're a happy intermediate, you're likely to be disappointed by small areas with limited vertical. If you love the tough stuff, it's the way to go.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles, To be honest i quite like the frenchy attitude as i speak french & i'm not a punter so i don't seem to get the guff others do. Which is quite refreshing & slightly amusing in a schadenfreud way when seeing others getting abuse. They are definitely better these days too.
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abc, That is a pretty good summary of 90% of ski holidays in the US and Europe I suspect. But I have had great eating and scenery experiences in the hill in North America, and great snow and skiing experiences in europe.
Also - as I have written before - last December I was about to go into an avi-controlled area in JH when it slid and a person who went a minute or so before in died. So even inbounds we can have risks anywhere.
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stoatsbrother, I totally agree that's just "on average" summery.
I've had the good fortune of skiing in the Alps after a dump of some very fluffy snow! And foods in several US/Canadian resorts are known to be quite good. I found some as good as what I had in Europe.
Still, on avearge, food is better in Europe. And that includes foods in the mountains.
There're some part of US/Canada that's quite stunning. Though because the ski resorts tend to be a lot smaller, you'll be looking at the same view for a week and eventually lose interest. 
Generally, the "mood" is quite different between the two continents. North American skiing is very business like. People ski hard, crash early, get up at crack of dawn to line up for first lift... And the ski infrastruture is also setup to facilitate that: fast lift, orderly queue (if any), avi controll, piste grooming etc. Food is by and large an afterthought!  Apre skiing doesn't even exist in many resorts!!! 
No, not everyone ski hard like that on every trip, myself in that camp. That's why I travel to Europe once a year to have a "ski holiday"!
But the majority of the winter, I stay in NA and SKI my heart (or leg?) out.
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abc, pretty much reflects my experience - or a good percentage of it, as stoatsbrother says. That said, my NA skiing hasn't been particularly extensive - a couple of times in Whistler, once in Panorama, once in/around Snowmass and once around Lake Tahoe.
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[quote="frank4short"]On the downside -
The mountains are smaller, you're not allowed ski outside of bounds, the food generally isn't as good, you're expected to tip for every beer.
Most areas in N.A. now have a open boundary policy allowing for some great slackcountry skiing. Don't have to tip for every beer, tip early and the service will be better. Mtns smaller but skiable terrain usaully greater. Food generally not to the standards of EU quality.
It's been covered but for offpiste and powder I like NA, ambiance the EU.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
No, not everyone ski hard like that on every trip, myself in that camp. That's why I travel to Europe once a year to have a "ski holiday"!
But the majority of the winter, I stay in NA and SKI my heart (or leg?) out.
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Pretty good summary. Nice to go to Europe to have a holiday but to ski your heart out....got to try NA. Not to say you can't have good times in Europe but to naively and flippantly say NA aint all that....carry on kidding yourself.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| vman wrote: |
| .... Nice to go to Europe to have a holiday... |
How kind.
| Quote: |
| but to ski your heart out....got to try NA. Not to say you can't have good times in Europe but to naively and flippantly say NA aint all that....carry on kidding yourself. |
Happy to do that, thanks for your permission. You seem to be promoting North American skiing aggressively - would you care to tell us about your connection with the industry there?
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Err
No French people.
QED
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You know it makes sense.
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achilles, yet actually the link in his sig line is pushing Austrian accommodation... so you might be being unfair.
He may actually have it right. Lots of great "holiday" aspects - eating on the hill, aprez-ski, mountain scenery (providing you don't mind the absence of trees...) are hugely better in Europe. Some of the skiing aspects - snowfall, patrolling, ski school, easy access to well-patrolled yet non-pisted skiing - seem to be generally better in the NA.
nixmap, actually - I don't mind the French - it is usually the English I find annoying on holiday.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Happy to do that, thanks for your permission. You seem to be promoting North American skiing aggressively - would you care to tell us about your connection with the industry there?
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achilles, nothing to do with NA industry other than having skiied there many more times than once. Hoping but appear to have been failing to highlight the virtues of both Europe and NA in equal measure and think my earlier posts do so. As stoatsbrother has pointed out, I have Austrian accomodation in my signature.... but doesn't stop be being passionate about skiing in NA. I clearly have a bias towards Austria (and we all have our preferences) but can get excited about NA with no axe to grind (Have seen plenty of posters just answer threads with the same resort every time (their own personal favourite))
Sorry if passion has been taken as aggression...not intended....I probably should not post late at night.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Is there a rule here that SH can promote only European resorts and not NA ones?
I am actually very keen to try out Colorado next year.
There is a circle of area of 50 miles radius with
Winter Park
Araphoe
Loveland
Keystone
Brenkenridge
Copper mountains
Vail
Beaver Creek
Aspen and Steamboat are only 85 and 100 miles from it.
From my experience with Whisltler/Blackcomb I thought the information given by the SH here on NA is factual and accurate.
My impression of NA is the high cost of fight, more than 1 week period to make it viable and the lack of the Alpine settings that we are used to have make it less cost effective/desirable to go across the pond. They suit the NA skiers just as the Alpine resorts suit us in UK.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| saikee wrote: |
My impression of NA is the high cost of fight, more than 1 week period to make it viable and the lack of the Alpine settings that we are used to have make it less cost effective/desirable to go across the pond. They suit the NA skiers just as the Alpine resorts suit us in UK. |
I don't think its a case of suiting a particular type of person - Seppos and Canucks love coming over to ski in Europe and places like the Chamonix, La Grave, Verbier, Andermatt, St Anton blow them away for sheer scale and scope. Likewise there's a certain no nonsense attraction for someone used to big Euro resorts about being able to lap a lift and drop straight into an interesting glade or chute (with the knowledge that control work has been conducted) or swooping manicured groomer without having to navigate miles of commuter catracks or motorway piste.
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achilles,
Can you have a go at this one
Terms and conditions quote
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You must not post or transmit through the snowHeads Site any defamatory, threatening, libellous, obscene, harmful or pornographic material or material which would violate or infringe in any way upon the rights of others (including intellectual property rights, rights of confidentiality, or rights of privacy) or cause distress or inconvenience or which do not comply with all relevant laws. You must not post messages that are vulgar, crude, sexist, racist, homophobic or otherwise offensive. |
How do we resolve a NA SH feeling "distressed" on seeing a European SH promoting European resorts while the latter feel "inconvenienced" by the promotion from the former?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I don't think its a case of suiting a particular type of person |
It does. Though the "type" isn't about where the person live, but how he skis.
"Snow motorway" cruising with beer and food at every hut while gawking at the stunning view? Europe.
Feeling the taste of powder in the mouth while snaking through the same patch of trees (taking a different line each time)? N. America.
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saikee, we went for three weeks and rode all of those places except Winter Park and Beaver Creek - I would highly, highly recommend it. We based ourselves in Breckenrige, which is a nice place, not too saccharine, and drove out to the others. Of them all I loved A basin - keep a few days for there!
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firebug,
Did you drive all the way from Breckenridge to Aspen? It is about 110 miles according to the map. Steamboat is even further away, possibly 172 miles if setting off from Breckenridge. I am thinking of staying between 3 to 4 accommodations, in a period of 3 weeks too. Think I better start a new thread on this one.
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saikee, No, we didn't - sorry, I wasn't counting those as being on the list! I would love to have gone to Steamboat but we decided it was too far.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have to make a point here that i've seen raised a couple of times that's plainly wrong. The offpiste skiing in the nth america does not hold a patch on any of the large european resorts. There is nowhere & i mean nowhere in Nth america where you can ski more the 5,000ft of lift accesible vertical (i'm only quoting feet as it's nigh on impossible to get metric figures out of them). Off of the top of my head without even thinking hard about it I can think of 6 different resorts in france that have in excess of 2,000m (6,000+ft) vertical of excellent skiing both piste & amazing off-piste. The only difference being is the frenchies/europeans don't have an excessive claims culture so they don't bomb everything in sight just in case. Going off piste is at your own risk.
Now i know for some people they prefer the nth american attitude of bombed & patrolled off piste cause it means they don't have to worry about avalanche protection, or guides or having to actually know what they're doing. This does not make it better it just makes it appear safer & more accessible to the less knowledgable. The truth is there is nowhere in nth america where you can do anything even remotely close to say the vallee blanche or any of the aiguille du midi variants & i know of at least 30+ similar runs that aren't quite as large. Off-piste is definitely not superior in nth america!
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frank4short, You seem to trying to make the point that more vertical feet (or meters) is what counts when skiing off-piste in either NA or Europe, but I think you've actually missed the point - the tricky little chutes and steep drops are what make life fun, not just clocking up vertical!
Certain resorts in NA now have contolled backcountry which is trully off-piste - it is only controlled in the sense that you have to sign in and out, and have to carry avi beacons and shovels. You can always find a guide and go completely off-piste in the backcountry which is completely at your own risk and doesnot involve a resort.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| saikee wrote: |
achilles,
Can you have a go at this one
Terms and conditions quote
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You must not post or transmit through the snowHeads Site any defamatory, threatening, libellous, obscene, harmful or pornographic material or material which would violate or infringe in any way upon the rights of others (including intellectual property rights, rights of confidentiality, or rights of privacy) or cause distress or inconvenience or which do not comply with all relevant laws. You must not post messages that are vulgar, crude, sexist, racist, homophobic or otherwise offensive. |
How do we resolve a NA SH feeling "distressed" on seeing a European SH promoting European resorts while the latter feel "inconvenienced" by the promotion from the former? |
I've had too many pints of Kew Gold to say. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I went to Killington on a public holiday - ski hire was a shambles and lift queues at least as bad as Europe. My wife was knocked over by a boarder (I know that could be anywhere), and it rained! For me it really wasn't worth it, but I didn't fancy the longer flights to Colorado etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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welshskier,If you are going to cross the pond - there is really little point in skiing on the East Coast.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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In retrospect i agree with stoatsbrother, but I was younger then!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| frank4short wrote: |
The only difference being is the frenchies/europeans don't have an excessive claims culture so they don't bomb everything in sight just in case. Going off piste is at your own risk.
Now i know for some people they prefer the nth american attitude of bombed & patrolled off piste cause it means they don't have to worry about avalanche protection, or guides or having to actually know what they're doing. This does not make it better it just makes it appear safer & more accessible to the less knowledgable. |
The "less knowledgable" is 90% of the skier population.
So it IS better for the majority of skiers.
And when you balance the cost of multi-day guide fees against the air fare to get across the pond, N. America isn't so expensive any more.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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[quote="frank4short"]I have to make a point here that i've seen raised a couple of times that's plainly wrong. The offpiste skiing in the nth america does not hold a patch on any of the large european resorts. There is nowhere & i mean nowhere in Nth america where you can ski more the 5,000ft of lift accesible vertical (i'm only quoting feet as it's nigh on impossible to get metric figures out of them).
Generalizations are so bad, so we have only 3 areas with around 5000' vert Whistler /Blackcomb, Vail, Revy, ?KH?.
Now its not 5000' but at Silver we can ride a Gondola for 3000' from town and the ski area has another 1800', and many people love skiing to town from the Mtn.
Pebble Creek I can do slackclountry runs of 2000-3000' in an hour and if I hike to the top of Bonneville and have a car set up I can ski 5000' and it's done by many in the know and you can do multiple laps in about 1.5 hours/lap.
JH taking the tram up and dropping down through the Hobacks over 4000,' great on a Powder day, lift served. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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frank4short, the length of an off-piste run is perhaps the least significant factor in assessing its quality. Why are three runs of, say, 1000m vertical each less enjoyable than one run of 3000m? As stoatsbrother says, the 3000m run is unlikely to have light, fluffy powder from top to bottom.
For me. the big thing about NA off-piste is that it's accessible without a guide or expert local knowledge. To the best of my knowledge, there's no European resort that has extensive off-piste terrain that I can access safely without the unwanted presence of a guide, and until that changes I'll prefer skiing across the pond.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Of course there must be other great times - however, I have little enthusiasm to commit 10 days to fortnight for a trip with guaranteed jetlag on return |
Melatonin is your friend. Available OTC in North America. Works a charm.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have to say i find some of the attitudes responded here shocking. Before i drop into any line i'm considering what the snow conditions are, exit strategies, safe spots if it goes wrong. I know how to use a transciever, read a slope & the snow conditions. That doesn't matter whether it be eurp or NA. I also find it slightly depressing that attitude of the use of a guide being an essential factor in europe. So people will happily pay much more money to fly to the NA just cause they feel they don't need a guide there. Makes me wonder what ever happened to self sufficiency in the mountains & having the appropriate knowledge & skills to deal with what the circumstances merit. Are people really that lazy that they won't learn how to look after themselves, be safe & determine whether or not the situations/conditions are safe. Instead they'd rather spend more money to either hire a guide to lead them around or go further to somewhere where they practically hold your hand when skiing off piste, won't let you do or go anywhere where you may injure yourself.
Before people start talking about having limited time to actually ski & wanting to make the most of it. It is possible to learn the basics in theory from books then to cement this knowledge whilst not loosing much or any skiing time with a guide. Just the proviso has to be made when booking the guide that you are there not only to be dragged down stuff but to be taught. Most good guides will always prefer a client who shows a genuine interest in what is happening rather than just having someone along for the ride. This is not something that should only be known by the elite but by every skier who has any interest venturing off piste.
As to my comments on amount of useable vertical skiing it was just one example to demonstrate my point. I can ski 2-3,000m an hour at grand montets doing laps on the bochard similar in tignes, val-d & les arcs & i'm sure there are a dozen other resorts in france & switzerland that are the same that i don't know as well. Vallee blanche was just an example of somethign you could never do in NA. I'm aware of the fact it's basically a blue/red piste which is why i noted also the other lines down the midi. There are very few if any runs in NA which can compare to the col du plan, cosmiques couloir or glacier ronde & on a good day it's possible to do laps on these on the midi. I can think of 6 couloirs directly under a lift in les plagnes that i could do laps on all day, many others just like them in les arcs, brevent, les flegeres, GM, tignes, val d, etc. The only difference is between them & the NA equivalents is you need to use your head first.
While i'm sure there are a number of resorts in the central rockies that consistently have better snow than pretty much anywhere else in the world in my (i'll concede all be it limited) experience of skiing in canada the snow was not worlds better than what i've experienced in the higher european resorts. In fact if truth be told the best snow i've skied has always been while skiing at altitude in chamonix.
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frank4short, some fair points are lost in that long rambling post. The key difference is that there is often a lot of stuff in NA which is a bit closer to a well-patrolled iteneraire than true off-piste - and allows you to spend more time learning skills and having fun in a way which - if you do not know the local terrain very well indeed - may be rather more dangerous in Europe. But - as I have said before - I saw someone die inbounds in a US resort this season.
Simple fact - most of NA gets in inches what Europe gets in cms.
And if you are the kind of bloke who feels he can go off piste in couloirs without strong local knowledge, a sound understanding of the snow fall throughout the current season at that location, and a good knowledge of slope and slide behaviour under different conditions at that location - then you are the kind of numpty I would rather avoid.
The mountain does not know you are an expert.
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stoatsbrother, Do you know how to dig & read a snow pit? If so then you can find out all of that information in a matter of minutes. With a days skiing, a protractor, a compass & a shovel I can tell you exactly what's going on in just about any ski resort. I'm far from being a numpty, & despite the fact this is the internet & should know better, resent the accusation. As i've stated elsewhere this is knowledge that people should know. If you can get yourself into these kinds of locations then you should know how to both deal with them & read the conditions.
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frank4short, tosh. A snow pit tells you about the snow at that point only. I spend a lot of time trying to learn more - reading the books and asking guides questions, looking at snow - learning about pits. But the idea that digging a snow pit will tell you enough about a run over 1000m... or do you dig a pit every 100m?
I didn't say you were necessarily a numpty - but you seem to be trying to prove that you might be by ticking off the qualifying criteria.
I repeat - "The mountain does not know you are an expert". What you are describing is a start - but it doesn't give you the right to diss people who are more safety conscious - which is what you did in your post, at the sametime also dissing NA skiing and skiers on the basis of almost zero experience. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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frank4short, I'd be much happier taking risks and learning on the job if I were skiing with similarly competent, healthy, fit and strong adult males than I am taking my kids who'll be aged 11, 13 and 14 when we next ski. They don't have the knowledge or experience to challenge any bad decisions that I might make, and they don't have the patience to hang around while I make amateur observations about the snow conditions and fiddle with a protractor.
I have as much or as little money as time. Regardless of price, I honestly don't have the time to take more than one skiing holiday a year so I'm going to enjoy the few days that I have on the slopes to the max. For me, that means I have two choices: a guide to keep the kids safe in Europe, or North American avalanche-controlled double-black slopes with an end-of-day sweep and a sensible level of safety checking at the start of the day. Having struggled once to clamber out of a tree well that I and my eldest lad stupidly fell into, I'm not about to take him on some wild excursions to prove my mountaincraft - I know it's not up to the job, and I'm reassured to know that sooner or later the piste patrol will be along if things get completely out of hand.
I'm sorry if my attitude slightly depresses you. Maybe you should live and let live - I'm delighted that you enjoy self-taught European off-piste, but it's not for me. Maybe you should accept that instead of telling me that I ought to be like you.
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I think there's an over reliance on others in North American ski culture. It's also worth bearing in mind that when comparing costs, we should compare NA resorts with small or mid-sized Euro resorts. In that regard, a group of, say, five or six skiers will pay quite a lot in additional lift pass costs in America for this perceived 'safety'. If I fell in a tree well towards the end of the day in a place like Heavenly, Jackson or Kirkwood, I most certainly would not count on patrol finding me.
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FAQ
