 Poster: A snowHead
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BTW, Its a shame when any ski org goes under. But lets be realistic they are not here for the benifit of the punters just profit! If any business havent got the financials corrrect they have only themselves to blame. Welcome to the real world.
You can do it cheaper DIY, do let the 'interested parties ' tell you otherwise. You also can then get more skiing. By arriving earlier and leaving later at a time to suit yourself!
As Bertie suggested, once you get past the first hol, and know that it isnt Einstien stuff to sort out passes, skis and lifts - why not DIY? And...
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Those TO's that continue to deliver what customers want will succeed, those that don't will go titsup.
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Agreed !
Roll on winter. The days are already getting shorter! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PJSki wrote: |
| ....... The bravery and ingenuity of these people who do DIY trips never ceases to amaze me. They must save themselves pounds at the end of the day. |
Not much bravery involved in booking a Swiss hotel, easyJet flights, and travelling by Swiss rail.
In return, I travel when I want to, and know I am not down for TO-contract meals that TOs like the SCGB inflict on punters. More than that, if I dig around a little, I can get single accommodation for far less than the single-occupier rate virtually all TOs charge.
Of course, easyjet could go bust, and so could the respectable Swiss hotel - but I am willing to underwrite the risk of that - and it doesn't keep me awake nights.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| achilles wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| ....... The bravery and ingenuity of these people who do DIY trips never ceases to amaze me. They must save themselves pounds at the end of the day. |
Not much bravery involved in booking a Swiss hotel, easyJet flights, and travelling by Swiss rail.
In return, I travel when I want to, and know I am not down for TO-contract meals that TOs like the SCGB inflict on punters. More than that, if I dig around a little, I can get single accommodation for far less than the single-occupier rate virtually all TOs charge.
Of course, easyjet could go bust, and so could the respectable Swiss hotel - but I am willing to underwrite the risk of that - and it doesn't keep me awake nights. |
Well, the way some here bang on, you would think there was something truly intrepid about making a few travel arrangements. And I'm sure that if the SCGB's food arrangement are as bad as you suggest they will go out of business.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| They must save themselves pounds at the end of the day. |
A few hundred pounds usually. Not everyone lives near the usual TO airports.
As many TO flights leave a silly times of the day, we have to cost in return flights to gatwick x 4, then overnight in hotel, usually the same on the way back. Pay for ski carriage. Leave the resort on the way back at stupid o'clock in the morning, sit forever in an airport. No thanks, DIY drive every time wins it for me, arrive and leave when we want.
Also hotels apartments etc seem much more friendly (and cheaper) if you pay direct rather than with a middle man i.e T.O.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| carroz wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| They must save themselves pounds at the end of the day. |
A few hundred pounds usually. Not everyone lives near the usual TO airports.
As many TO flights leave a silly times of the day, we have to cost in return flights to gatwick x 4, then overnight in hotel, usually the same on the way back. Pay for ski carriage. Leave the resort on the way back at stupid o'clock in the morning, sit forever in an airport. No thanks, DIY drive every time wins it for me, arrive and leave when we want.
Also hotels apartments etc seem much more friendly (and cheaper) if you pay direct rather than with a middle man i.e T.O. |
I don't disagree. Clearly DIY works for you. It's just the idea the DIYers are somehow superior that I find odd.
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PJSki, Achilles and I had money back from the SCGB for totally appalling food on a holiday to Verbier some years ago.
There is room for both. Probably difficult to beat TOs for last minute deals though,
Last year I went on one fully self-booked holiday to a hotel in JH not used by UK TOs - and flying a route (LHR>DFW>JAC) which TOs don't tend to use - pushing most people via O'Hare which is a nightmare.
The SCGB holiday I went on left me to book the flights... (not complaining - I flew via London City - which is brilliant and not usually offered by TOs)
In fact the only fully TO organised holiday I went on was the sH Birthday Bash...
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| PJSki wrote: |
| It's just the idea the DIYers are somehow superior that I find odd. |
 And their similarity to most smokers I know.
Most of what has been said pertains to the limited environs of the Alps/Pyrenees, for people travelling from there, or the UK.
For the average Joe going to NA (for say, two weeks) you will struggle to get near the deals, and security, offered by the TO's.
I should now. I've tried. So have people I know, and always paid more.
And I'm sure most can come up with an exception or two, but it does not on the whole disprove the rule.
Only when planning a multi-hill road trip does DIY make much more sense.
John.
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BCjohnny, I did a DIY trip to Whistler, and saved a fortune, BUT I agree it is probably an exception, as I got the flights cheaper through a relative who worked for an airline.
My reasons for DIY have always been HUGE underoccupancy supplements charged by mainstream tour ops even when my kids were sleeping on sofabeds.In one case these amounted to more than the cost of an extra person. Even in Canada, with two boys aged 16 and 17, to get an affordable holiday we were expected to share a bedroom between the four of us with two queen beds. Getting them their own room made the cost extortionate. Renting a 2 bedroom condo with hot tub independently saved us several hundred pounds. Enough to pay for our lift passes , car hire and Easter Sunday brunch at Chateau Whistler.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I use BA Miles to get to North America (Club Class  ), so everything after that is DIY.
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Helen Beaumont, Spot on - If you want a week in Banff with 4 people in a room/tfrs included then clearly it is hard to beat TO prices. If you want a non std timespan , want to travel outside TO's prescribed party sizes of 2 or 4 people o a room then TOs become vastly more complex.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, I wasn't particularly happy about having to share my room with two 6ft teenage boys either
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, Amex BA card ? free flights as you spend no less
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rayscoops, indeed.
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You know it makes sense.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| rayscoops, indeed. |
x2
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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fatbob, absolutely.
BCjohnny, As someone who skis in North America 1 or 2 times a year I think you overstate your case.
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Poster: A snowHead
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We have very few wintersport tour operators as most folk drive or go by Bus or Train to Europe.
In 25 seasons skiing in the US/Canada. I have always done DIY however, recently I have used some services of Tour Operators to obtain cheap lift passes in American Resorts
Overall having priced out trips with UK & German Tour Operators DIY has always worked out cheaper & way more flexible.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| BCjohnny, As someone who skis in North America 1 or 2 times a year I think you overstate your case. |
You are most welcome to your opinion, but as someone who boards in Canada once or twice every year I disagree.
In my previous post I'm not saying TO's are the only choice, but for most average punters (and this excludes most sHs), taking a couple of weeks, they remain, overall, the best choice. How is that "overstating" the case?
For people who don't have access to free air miles, mates rates etc etc (all the things that distort the real cost) and who are, like myself, relatively on a budget. I have never been able to get out there for what I pay a TO.
I've been to WB for £667, Fernie for £542 and KH £587. We go to Jasper, mid March '10, for £507. All for two weeks flts, trfs, accom, all supps paid (in every case; no I don't like sharing either). All of them booked well in advance, no late deals. And benefitted from subsidised lift passes, free ski buses etc etc.
The "average" return flight on its own, into Calgary, pre-booked, is around the £350 mark. You do the maths.
For those with the disposable to individually tailor their trips, DIY is most likely the best option. My "dream" road trip to Ca will be DIY, no contest.
Europe, granted, is a completely different matter.
In agreeing with PJSki it is the notion, often espoused on here, that a TO deal is normally going to cost more and be inferior, and that, by arranging it all independently, makes you somehow superior.
John.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BCjohnny, I'd agree that for the holidays the TOs offer - they will be cheaper 90% of the time, especially if you can book last minute or for low season slots. But if you want different routes, or to avoid your kids being in the same room as you (NA quad occupancy  ) you will do better yourself - and can often negotiate discounts or benefits against the rack rate. Just trying to book a holiday in Snowbird or Alta at the moment. The TO quotes we have had so far are still more expensive than booking better accommodation online direct...
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stoatsbrother, agreed.
The quad occupancy thing is a joke, allowing a lower "sticker" price that gets ramped by supps. But often it doesn't add too much, normally around £50 per person per weeks stay. Which if you start from a low enough base price is not too unmanageable.
Don't think from my stance it's all about saving money. We've managed some pretty neat trips, within a reasonable budget, all courtesy of the TO's. As a result I lately manage a month in Ca each season, which by some peoples standards is not a lot, but I'm happy enough with. Almost.......
And good luck with your booking. A more personalised (road) trip is something I'll get round to someday, if only to scratch this interminable itch I have.
John.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think the more exclusive operators are rather different from the heapo cheapo kind discussed above. You rent a chalet from them, with staff. The cost per head will obviously depend on whether you fill all the beds, or just give your party a little more space. Then you might pay additionally for the food - depending on what you ask your chef to cook for you (lobsters come expensive in Val D'Isere...). Then you think about whether to fly out, or ask the chauffeur to drop you down there, or do a helicopter transfer to resort, or what.
"Get the lot for £600" is hardly an exclusive operation - but maybe those lower end operators will prove more resilient in a downturn.
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The sole apartment owner , should understand that they are undermining the livleyhoods of many small guest houses and apartment businesses
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As a sole apartment owner I'd love to get rid of the damn thing, but unfortunately there's a credit crunch on and noone is buying apartments, not even at a discount. Just as soon as I can sell it I can have my extension built at home and not have to have everyone and their dog traipsing through my bedroom to use the only loo in the house. In the meantime I have a Euro-mortgage to pay and the only way it is going to be paid is if I rent the apartment out. I have far more people enquire about renting the apartment than I have space in it, and as a former resident of the town my apartment is in I pass on details of other small businesses when I get enquiries.
Yes, in your opinion I might be undermining other small businesses, but I am not so distressed by this that I am about to stop renting out the apartment. I would bankrupt myself if I did.
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| carroz wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| They must save themselves pounds at the end of the day. |
A few hundred pounds usually. Not everyone lives near the usual TO airports.
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"Usually" for you perhaps, but you are very unusual. Most people will save (at most) a few pounds.
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As many TO flights leave a silly times of the day, we have to cost in return flights to gatwick x 4, then overnight in hotel, usually the same on the way back.
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I don't imagine anywhere near 1% of people would fly to Gatwick to start their holiday. I arther doubt that even 1% of those few people who live more than 3 hours or so drive away from a major TO airport wouold. And if you don't live anyhwree near airports used by TOs, then you also probably don't live near airports used by the cheap operators.
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Pay for ski carriage. Leave the resort on the way back at stupid o'clock in the morning, sit forever in an airport. No thanks, DIY drive every time wins it for me, arrive and leave when we want.
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That works for you. There are certainly good reasons for going DIY, but saving significantly is not really one of them, for most people. Although some of what you are suggesting above is not typical IME. I have, for instance, only ever once had to leave the resort before the normal breakfast time in the hotel (on a ski holiday).
And "DIY Drive" is a significantly different holiday to a TO package including flights - which is clearly what you want, and so is good for you. It wouldn't be for everybody.
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Also hotels apartments etc seem much more friendly (and cheaper) if you pay direct rather than with a middle man i.e T.O. |
They may be friendlier, but the main reason for that is that they are most certainly not cheaper.
I always look to see what I could put together for a DIY trip, and have never yet been able to do it for a saving of more than £10-£15 for a trip to a similar quality hotel - and that is traveling solo, so I have less choice from the TOs than a couple would.
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| stanton wrote: |
We have very few wintersport tour operators as most folk drive or go by Bus or Train to Europe.
In 25 seasons skiing in the US/Canada. I have always done DIY however, recently I have used some services of Tour Operators to obtain cheap lift passes in American Resorts
Overall having priced out trips with UK & German Tour Operators DIY has always worked out cheaper & way more flexible. |
The logistics are obviously very different from the Netherlands to those from the UK.
You don't have the cost of getting a car across the channel (or of flying across it), and you are significantly closer in terms of driving time/distance to most of the Alps than the majority of people in the UK.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| stanton wrote: |
We have very few wintersport tour operators as most folk drive or go by Bus or Train to Europe.
In 25 seasons skiing in the US/Canada. I have always done DIY however, recently I have used some services of Tour Operators to obtain cheap lift passes in American Resorts
Overall having priced out trips with UK & German Tour Operators DIY has always worked out cheaper & way more flexible. |
The logistics are obviously very different from the Netherlands to those from the UK.
You don't have the cost of getting a car across the channel (or of flying across it), and you are significantly closer in terms of driving time/distance to most of the Alps than the majority of people in the UK. |
Really?
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stanton, yes really, foolish cloggy. Or don't you have maps in the paradise that is Holland? 
And hordes of your countrymen roll up here in coaches laid on by Dutch TOs.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| And hordes of your countrymen roll up here in coaches laid on by Dutch TOs. |
That's true if Dutch Week in Val Thorens is anything to go by. Lots drive, but many turn up in coaches.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well said Wayne. half of these smug diyers forget about the hours they have spent reseraching their holidays and also conveniently forget about theh cost of that tank of petrol, car parking, taxes, food bilss, tips, etc. I do both (diy and package holidays) and when it comes to taking a week in a catered chalet operators are cheaper nowadays in most instances. Packages aren't just for dumb first time skiers - they are for everyone. If those DIYers chose to blindly believe that DIY is always the cheapest then so be it though. Book a flight with easyjet, Ryanair, BA, Swiss, etc and you have NO financial protection. Book it through a travel agent or tour op and you have financial protection? How weird is that? BUT, it's not just the cost of the flight: say your flight cost you £40.00 each way and whilst out in resort your airline went pop. What happens? Every other arline puts up its prices. You arrive at the airport and are then faced with a one way flight at £350.00. Total cost of flight then £390.00 one way. ATOL provides bonding for the entireity of the trip ONLY if air travel is involved though and agents/operators have to pay handsomely for that whilst airlines don't  .
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Just out of interest how many people who have arranged DIY holidays have used the protection of ABTA or ATOL because one of the companies providing their package holiday has stopped trading? I can't recall anyone here posting about that, but I might well have missed their story.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, it's never happened to me. Maybe we've seen nothing here because sHs are a bit savvy about who they do business with?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, I don't understand your question, can you rephrase at all?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Morrissey, I'm not sure where the 'smug' in DIYers comes from.
Like you, I sometimes use a tour operator and sometimes don't. I'm either smug or not (don't feel you have to comment on that part), but I don't see how it relates to how I book my holidays.
I wouldn't say that choosing between operators and their locations is entirely time-free by the way - although since I buy an identical package with one particular TO at least once a year, it is for me, most of the time. That package is pretty good value too, although there are always incidentals, even with a package.
I choose DIY when one or more element of the holiday is 'free' or fixed: i.e. use of BA miles or staying in a friend's property.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 2-09-09 12:11; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, Morrissey, I think rob@rar was attempting to obliquely draw attention to the fact that hardly anybody arranging a DIY holiday will have any ATOL or ABTA cover at all.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Morrissey wrote: |
| rob@rar, I don't understand your question, can you rephrase at all? |
Sorry, the question got mangled between my brain and my keyboard. What I was trying to ask is how many DIYers have had disrupted holiday plans (for which ATOL/ABTA cover would have helped) because one of the travel/holiday companies they are using has gone bust.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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laundryman, sorry perhaps I wasn't being clear. I'm not calling all DIYers smug at all. As I stated, I do both, and for a living but I constantly hear people brag about how they did it themselves annd saved and when under scrutiny they fail to calculate so many little extras. Granted TO's can be expensive - anyone that self drives and employs the services of TUIski UK amongst (Crystal Thomson First Choice Flexiski) for a self catering apartments must be mad however if they use alternative operators then the prices are virtually identical than going direct and it some instances cheaper. I use a certain tour operator for short breaks to Morzine as the rates last season where £10.00 pppn better than going directly to the hotel.
alex_heney, thanks for that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Morrissey, thanks.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Morrissey wrote: |
| rob@rar, I don't understand your question, can you rephrase at all? |
Sorry, the question got mangled between my brain and my keyboard. What I was trying to ask is how many DIYers have had disrupted holiday plans (for which ATOL/ABTA cover would have helped) because one of the travel/holiday companies they are using has gone bust. |
Plenty I would have thought that used XL when they went, or Swiss Air when they went, or Descent when they went, or GO when they were bought out and stopped various ski routes, or The ski Company when they went, or the numerous failures of accommodation only suppliers or bedbank companies. Not sure if many Snowheads have been affected though.
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alex_heney, fair point - and a risk I accept, but a responsible TO cannot, of course.
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Morrissey, very unfortunate for the people who were affected by those companies stopping trading, but in the grand scheme of things I think that's still a very small number of people compared to the overall ski market? Wouldn't The Ski Company and Descent have been ABTA bonded? Wouldn't XL and Swiss Air have had ATOL protection?
What protection do you get for things like airline bookings when you pay by credit card? Amex always seem to make a big tada about their level of consumer protection for various purchases although I don't think I've ever read the small print.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Morrissey I rarely book accommodation that is offered by tour ops, large or small. Most of the hotels I have stayed in are small family run places, that you just can't book as a package, and have all worked out cheaper than a tour op package in a different hotel/chalet on the same dates. I have also used Erna Low in the distant past, who knocked spots off the main tour ops prices for the self-catering accommodation we booked. I don't waste any more time researching my holiday when I DIY than when I use a tour op. Irrelevant now we have our own apartment, as we use that most, but not all of the time.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Wouldn't XL and Swiss Air have had ATOL protection? |
No. ATOL doesn't work like that. If you booked direct with them then you "may" have been able to get a refund from the card company or your insurance but not from CAA .
If you booked with an ATOIL bond TO then you would get a full refund if you had not already departed and by brought home for free if abroad.
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FAQ
