Cat Skiing and Gratuities (er,that's tips to you and me...)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I think the nature of tipping is quite clear. It works like this.
Based on your expectations of what you expected of a service at the price you paid for it -
Did the service exceed your expectations or not? If so by how much.

The expectation or nationality of the person giving the service is irrelevent.
gratuity - an award (as for meritorious service) given without claim or obligation.

Asking others "how much should I tip?" is useless as the answer is subjective and based on your personal expectations.

In other words , if I go to a very expensive restarant, heavy tipping is unlikely as my expectation will already be high. If I go to a cheap reataurant but still get a stunning meal and service, then I would be inclined to tip generously.

In the US tipping is out of control, expectations are high. So high that, some people give service in a manner that is unatural and overly obsequious, such that it makes me uncomfortable and has exactly the opposite effect.

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Twitchy87, I think nixmap was making the point it is unlikely you would get £1.20 change on a £121.20 bill - why would anyone put down £122.40? nevertheless your point is well made about keeping the small change.

I was told some years ago by French friends that in France restaurant service is by law included in the prices. If the service is good you may wish to round the bill up a small amount. I don't know if this is true in any other countries.

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snowball, it's true in lots of countries, Italy and Hong Kong where I am now for example. I completely agree with nixmap, view on this one. For tipping to be expected (certainly the amount to be expected) it completely takes away the point.

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abc, is there a minimum wage in the US? If so, are restaurants allowed to include tips in it? There's been big outcry in the UK recently with many restaurants found to be using tips to top up their staff's pay to the minimum wage, completely unacceptable.

In my view on a mid - high price restaurant bill service as expected would get a small tip. It would have to be exceptional to warrant as much as 15%, beyond expectations. If service has gone beyond expectations, how can you reward it if 15% is already "expected' for adequate service? It just gets silly.

beanie1, minimum wage doesn't apply to restaurant staff. Somehow, the industry had managed to get an "exemption".

The tipping culture is such that most waiters and waitresses prefer to leave it that way. Even in a low end restaurant, they can get 2-3 times the minimum wage. Probably one of the highest paid job for non-skilled labor. (though technically, it's not exactly "non-skilled") As such, table-waiting is considered a "sort after" job, much more desirable than working in McDonalds.

I personally don't see much of a issue. If we somehow managed to abolish tipping altogehter, then the manu will simply be 15% higher for all restaurants. This is already the case in some small percentage of (mostly high end) restaurants. We wouldn't even have the option of NOT paying that 15%! As times gets tougher, restaurant patrons are getting stingy on their tips. So more and more restaurants are adding the 15% on top of their bill in a line item of "service charge". In effect, it's moving towards a non-optional tip.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

On a more practical note about tipping on tour.

Heres a tip for you all. (sic)

If you stop and think about it. Tips really only have a positive effect for the tipper after youve made them, the second time you attend some where.
Once the service know you are a generous tipper you really will get the best service.

Another thread to this on holiday, when you got to a restaurant, tip the man 5$ for taking your coat, make a 5$ tip to the wine waiter for corkage., or some other pre dinner service.
Of course this is totally unexpected, and for the rest of the meal staff will be lining up to give you the best that they can. Then at the end of the meal you can tip as you like taking into account the $10 you have already paid. As tips in all restarants are normally pooled it wont make the slightest difference who you actually gave the money to.

When you arrive at a hotel, always tip the bell boy more than you think could ever be resaonable.
The information will go around very quickly and you will get great service.
Again you can then tip as you like at the end.

Of course you could argue thats this was part of you master plan and therefore extra good service was part of your expectations, you dont then have to pay any more tips at all Twisted Evil

A snowHead

Okay here we go.

I used to work in a pub 20 odd years ago (when I still had hair). Didn't expect a tip top be nice and got the odd drink bought at christmas from the regulars (money in the comunal jar).
I was paid a wage and the owner expected me to be nice !!!! no matter what!!!!.

I then ran a pub and paid my staff 50% more than the competition. I also paid their taxi's home and gave them free beer if they were going to a party...as long as it was in the stock book. I also bought them a take away if they worked through dinner time. Turnover went up from 1800-4600/week in 6 months. I finally had to leave by mutual consent because I sacked the owners daughter for stealling. Ooooops. I was young and full of principles then Happy

Next I was a taxi driver... A nice one..honest. I didn't expect a tip but always got one because I did things like take the messages or bags into peoples houses or at least to the door. It made a difference of 25% on my money.

BUT I got this because I was nice. the first time I went to the USA I was shocked that everything had a tip attached to it. I asked a nice waitress in a bar what I should tip., explaining that I was Scottish and didn't want to offend by giving the wrong tip. She said 15% or 20% but only if excelent. I found that I got excelent service if I said the same thing at the start of a meal but only so-so if I didn't.

Next I went to florida for a meeting (the last place was seattle) adn the service was Cr@p. It was a bummer having to continuously work out the level of tip. I mean why not pay people wages.

Then a nice USA coleague explained. The restaurants cant afford to have lots of staff on to meet your standards. They also cant aford to make the prices so high or trade will go elsewhere. So the staff work on tips and if they are busy they wait but if thy are quiet they leave. That way there are always servers to meet your demands. It is better than waiting for a dinner.etc etc.

Now I would hate that culture to come into Scotland but the system is so engrained in the US that you just have to go with the flow. Why not turn things on their head and think "WOW, what a terrible culture that they have to rely on tips for a living", put on our smug euro hats and enjoy the holiday.

PS I like Americans and the USA and Scottish service can learn a lot (but please not the tip culture). Happy

Cheers
Bob

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Just a quick point but if, as most people are implying, the tip of 15% is expected and it unfair to the guide if he doesn't recieve it then why is this not added on at the time of payment? Many restaurants and hotels add it on automatically and that way there is no confusion from the start. The client knows exactly what the trip costs and can factor it in from the beginning, the guide get's the tip which I agree he/she deserves, and the company get the business and everyone is happy.

Expecting someone to stump up cash of 15% of such a large amount is unreasonable in my opinion and doing it this way is, in my view, a cop out from the companies as they don't need to take any responsibilty for it being paid. Yes the client should pay it, yes the guide should recieve it but the company who facilitate and provide the service should take the initiative and responsibility to ensure it happens and in a manner which doesn't present such uncomfortable circumstances for the client and guide. However this doesn;t happen and meanwhile the company sits there happily counting their many beans (which are likely to be a lot bigger pile than both the client and guides come the end of the season).

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No-one's answerd the q? Is the company expecting a tip on the whole contract or are the gratuities for the coalface individuals (guide and/or driver). I agree with Nixmap the system is broken and if the business marketing is structured to need a 15% uplift on the price then there is something wrong with it's price model. It's the individuals providing the personal service that get a tip and that should not be 15% of the whole contract price.

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Its a bit like ryanscare and sleasyjet isn't it... headline price 'x', oh but there's non optional extras: total price 'x' plus.

You know its coming, you don't like it, but there's nothing you can do about it, except go elsewhere.

I can't stand the guilt trip they lay on you " oh if you don't tip , the waiter's wage is too low". What load of BS - I don't get a tip if I bring my projects in on time. I don't get a tip if I do WHAT I'M PAID TO DO.
I might get a bonus iof I do exceptionally well. But it sure as hell ain't guaranteed.

Bah humbug.

A quick glance through this has left me a bit flummoxed. VAT is only "optional" in a few specific instances (when exporting an item direct, and buying from a merchant geared up to it). Try sitting in a restaurant and saying "I'm Swiss, so please knock off the VAT". And it's very rare that displayed prices in ordinary shops don't include VAT.

And how did we get into "taxes versus tips". Many countries - including Canada, which this thread is about, have both.

People vehemently opposed to tipping might like to holiday in the Solomon Islands, where it's contrary to local culture, and discouraged. Snow's rubbish, though.

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As has been said by several people, if you go again, having found out what was expected, you know you have to factor in the cost of a 15% tip. It is the first time which gets you angry, when you book and go not knowing this.
I booked a 2 week holiday in Canada and skied 2 days with "Extremely Canadian" and a week with a Heli outfit (I always knew this was likely to be the one time I would do a week of heli, since I can't really afford it). Nothing in their publicity on the web prepared me for the tipping situation and I'm afraid we had to compromise and tip rather low.
It is possible that "tips not included" may have figured somewhere in the publicity, though I didn't notice it. But you might say the same on an alpine guiding website and you wouldn't then imagine a situation different from the one you were used to.
By the way, when I have been with a guided group holiday in the Alps (for example Ski Club of GB holidays) we have almost always bought the guide lunch each day and tipped him at the end. The guide usually had a drink with us after skiing on the last day which was assumed to be the time to give him the money collected from the group. However, being with a random group put together by a Guiding Company there does seem (rightly or wrongly) less of a general inclination in the group to tip as well as give lunch, perhaps because the expectation is that he is on a wage, rather than living off what you pay, and also the basic charge tends to be higher. Or perhaps it is because the paying gets associated with the company and nobody raises the issue within the group because you are a looser association and some people are not used to tipping.

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I'm about to offer a Cat skiing trip.

It costs 1 CAD. Yes, that's right 1 Canadian Dollar. Fantastic value, even with a poor exchange rate. But obviously at this low low price I can only take the first 10 applicants.

Oh - did I mention that booking fee, flights, local travel, transport of equipment, accomodation, linen, towels, bog roll, room service and cleaning, showers, food, water, (and other drinks) specialised gear, local maps, saftey training, cat petrol, cat driver, hire of guide, local and state taxes, and yes, staff tips are specifically not included in this bargain price, and in addition you need to pay 1 cent per vertical metre skied?
(and there's some small print as well...)

But Wow!! Only 1 CAD!!!! How can you not join us?!!!

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

I don't know but wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the ski industry hasn't just jumped on the tipping culture bandwagon. Can someone please tell me whether a ski guide's job (Europe or Nth America) is really so badly paid that they rely on tips to eke out an existence? Are we talking less than the UK minimum wage or something??

If it's really so bad to be a ski guide parlor - "hell on earth"?? - why do it when you could presumably (according to the tales of hardship on here) be earning more in McDonalds AND be getting free food to boot. You're having a laugh surely??

So, where do all of the happy punters who are happy to tip until they have been bled dry draw the line then? Lift operators? Piste basher drivers? Ski patrollers? Ski servicers? Ticket sellers? Avalanche dogs? I somehow can't imagine any of those jobs being paid less than a ski guide. And does a ski guide in (say) France really not earn enough to make ends meet in comparison to the cheery bakery worker who sells me my morning croissant? Maybe I should be tipping her too?

Don't get me wrong, I tip for good service - but don't think that it should ever be viewed as a right. And surely there is a balance to be struck in terms of size of tip? Like Masque, I agree that - unless you have the income of a Russian oligarch - "it's ridiculous to expect a gratuity of 15% on a $1000 contract."

A snowHead

There are different types of "ski guide"

From the ISM website

"UIAGM / IFMGA Guide Award

The Carnet of the International Federation of Mountain Guides Associations (IFMGA or UIAGM, no difference) is the highest professional award attainable in mountaineering. It is recognised throughout the world, and in alpine countries such as France and Switzerland it is a legal requirement for anyone taking clients into the mountains on or above glacier level, whether climbing or skiing.

To achieve the IFMGA carnet takes tremendous dedication to mountaineering and a high level of skill in all aspects of the sport – rock climbing, ice climbing, alpine climbing and Ski Touring. It also requires a portfolio of climbing experience which takes years to acquire. "

Most European Guides (not instructors )you will hire for a day's offpiste will be UIAGM qualified and AIUI are usually "self employed" through their own business or a co-operative such as a Bureau des Guides. They earn respectable daily rates, but obviously only on days they are working.

A North American Cat or Heli-skiing guide may be UIAGM qualified but may also simply hold less rigourous local snow safety/ lower level guide qualifications e.g. a tail guide with a cat op. Often with the heli ops they seem to be highly experienced ski pros. They are far more likely to be employees and due to the relative desirability of the job compared to say lodge dishwasher may not earn at significantly enhanced premium. They can however make the difference between your very expensive day being ho-hum meadow skipping or the best skiing/boarding of your life or the day you die as they have discretion over where you go. Just as ski instructors, ski patrol & lifties earn less in N America than Europe I would expect them to earn less than a European UIAGM guide.

There is also the TO "ski guide" who is usually a TO resort staff employee who shows punters around the area, not unlike a SCGB rep. They will almost on average be qualified to a lower standard than the above 2 classes and have been the subject of numerous legal fracas in France over the years.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

mountainaddict, yes. Sometimes it's worse.

I always leave my "small" change when buying a croissant, and I often get rewarded with free croissants.

You reap what you sow.

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Even though the out-front prices of Sleasyjet and Grymyair are not the full ones you do know the full one before you actually book.

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If you hire a car in US or Canada are you supposed to tip the person at the desk who gives you the keys etc ?

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Bergmeister, It's easy, bank on giving 5%, or perhaps 6 or 7% if it's really exceptional, then you've fulfilled your obligation to leave a tip, and left the guide wondering what he could have done better to achieve the recommended 15% and thereby ensuring that all future clients get a better service.

Simples...

If we all stopped leaving tips, the industry would have to price everything accordingly and pay decent wages and taxes...

snowHead

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The problem is calling it a gratuity. It sounds more like a wage paid by the client directly to the server.

After all it is free

For the sake of argument, a fully qualified UIAGM guide will charge around £300 per day (some a little more, some less, plus you get peak fees in summer but let's keep it simple.) They will be very busy through Feb and March (for skiing) and July and August (for Alpinism); they will have a reasonable amount of work in Jan and April and maybe into May for ski touring. Late May/June will usually be quiet as will mid-Sep to Christmas week.

So, a guide will be doing pretty well if he works much more than 175 days a year. That's about £52.5k turnover so there will be costs to take out of this (eg new kit, insurance etc). This is a physically demanding, dangerous occupation and it takes about 6 years to get fully qualified. Not exactly over-paid IMV

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Cat Skiing and Gratuities (er,that's tips to you and me...)

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