 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Why would Manchester want to get into a Dutch auction for these routes anyway - short way to go out of business.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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and the only one that might affect skiers is Bergamo...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hopefully the start of a trend of more airports telling Ryanair to take a hike. The constant blackmailing for lower charges than other airlines or we'll take our routes away, in effect means people flying with every other airline subsidise those flying Ryanair.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Can't blame Ryanair for trying (after all others can do the same), but the consequence if airports keep agreeing is an unpleasant passenger experience, long queues, etc..
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| The constant blackmailing for lower charges than other airlines or we'll take our routes away,. |
Why is this pejoratively called blackmailing? Isn't it good business practice to seek to get a better deal than your rivals in any sector of business?
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Winterhighland, not blackmailing. Perfectly legitimate to take business elsewhere if another supplier can provide a needed service at less cost.
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| bertie bassett wrote: |
| and the only one that might affect skiers is Bergamo... |
And possibly Girona (for Andorra).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles,
In principle you're right of course, but ultimately, isn't the whole thing a bit unhealthy though?
I am not too worried about an airport like Manchester, but for smaller destinations something like this could be disastrous and I suspect this latest development also serves a warning to others.
Ryanair, and Easyjet for that matter, have alway based their model on using small regional airports to minimise cost (taxes, slots prices etc..). As a consequence, these airports have invested money and developped their facilities to cope with the increased passengers influx... all great so far, almost everyone's a winner..
But then a lot of those airports and their employees are now dependent in those airlines, which place Ryanair and it's very agressive policies in a great position to force (blackmail dare I say) these airports to keep their charges (too) low..or they'll go to the nearest other airfield (because that is what some of them are really..).
Something got to give and eventually this pressure is felt on the employees jobs and wages and on the service quality (non-existent?)....
I don't know, prejudice probably, but I feel that Easyjet seems to operate just as well without being so agressive and obnoxious to their suppliers and customers... and employees for that matter..
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Kruisler, if the smaller airports are vulnerable, they should have had a better business plan, and possibly not expanded in the first place - since airlines hunting for the best deal should have been anticipated. Probably some smaller airports will fold. Hopefully not those local to me, but who knows? The market will resolve itself. Meantime it doesn't do any harm for BAA and Manchester Airports Group to have a reality check.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Winterhighland, not blackmailing. Perfectly legitimate to take business elsewhere if another supplier can provide a needed service at less cost. |
Well if the stories about the manor they dealt with HIAL was representative of their behaviour, I could think of a lot less polite phrases than blackmail. The fact is if airports agree to provide them with not only lower chargers, but to guarantee that their charges are lower than any other airline or they wont fly from your airport - that's on very dubious ground under competition law and it means that those flying other airlines are subsidising Ryanair, while the increased operating requirements for the extra flights is meet with reduced overall per person airport charges = poorer and poorer service as others have alluded to. I would like to see more airports say no to Ryanair's bleeting.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| Kruisler, if the smaller airports are vulnerable, they should have had a better business plan, and possibly not expanded in the first place - |
So in effect you are agreeing with what I say, more airports should have, certainly now should say no to the likes of Ryanair.
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Kruisler, if the smaller airports are vulnerable, they should have had a better business plan, and possibly not expanded in the first place - |
So in effect you are agreeing with what I say, more airports should have, certainly now should say no to the likes of Ryanair. |
If they did as you would like, then we would have no cheap airlines.
It still wouldn't get all that many more people coming to Scotland to ski 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| The fact is if airports agree to provide them with not only lower chargers, but to guarantee that their charges are lower than any other airline or they wont fly from your airport - that's on very dubious ground under competition law |
A lot more than "very dubious". Completely illegal, if they did that (in the UK).
I rather doubt that aspect of the stories is true (where is HIAL anyhow?)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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HIAL is Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Kruisler, if the smaller airports are vulnerable, they should have had a better business plan, and possibly not expanded in the first place - |
So in effect you are agreeing with what I say, more airports should have, certainly now should say no to the likes of Ryanair. |
Nope, I am saying the airport management should have done a SWOT analysis in the first place. Over-dependence on on customer (airline) is clearly a weakness; customers wanting lower costs is clearly a threat - as is the competition from other airports.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| If they did as you would like, then we would have no cheap airlines. |
The days of 'cheap' airlines is severely limited, the airlines may survive or not, but the actual price paid in future wont be cheap that's for sure. The number of airlines has contracted, the capacity has contracted and even those still going are slashing and burning their schedule. There is only one way prices are going to go at the first sign of the economy picking up, and that is skywards. Longer term as the world recovers from the credit crunch skywards is where the crude oil price will no doubt be heading again too.
I know too many people completely stuffed by Ryanair, I would never fly with them under any circumstances and as for the notion of cheap flights, the argument that the likes or Ryanair allows less well off people to fly is dangly bits, if you can't afford to buy a full most expensive fare at the drop of a hat, can you afford to take the risk of having to extract yourself from the sort of situation you might be in when Ryanair shits all over you?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Winterhighland wrote: |
| The fact is if airports agree to provide them with not only lower chargers, but to guarantee that their charges are lower than any other airline or they wont fly from your airport - that's on very dubious ground under competition law |
A lot more than "very dubious". Completely illegal, if they did that (in the UK). |
Actually, I am not clear that that is so. Whilst I am not a lawyer, the company I work for has taken advice on competition law in the past. We have never been screwed as tightly as Winterhighland alleges has happened to HIAL - however I can see we very well could be, so your remark interests me. Would you care to enlarge with a reference?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| Winterhighland wrote: |
| The fact is if airports agree to provide them with not only lower chargers, but to guarantee that their charges are lower than any other airline or they wont fly from your airport - that's on very dubious ground under competition law |
A lot more than "very dubious". Completely illegal, if they did that (in the UK). |
Actually, I am not clear that that is so. Whilst I am not a lawyer, the company I work for has taken advice on competition law in the past. We have never been screwed as tightly as Winterhighland alleges has happened to HIAL - however I can see we very well could be, so your remark interests me. Would you care to enlarge with a reference? |
The Competition Act 1998. In particular Section 2(d).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
to guarantee that their charges are lower than any other airline or they wont fly from your airport
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That sounds like the illegal bit.
As to higher airport charges being the death knell for cheap fares, the charges being talked about are less than £5 per passenger - for a whole range of services. For airports to obtain this oncome indirectly from passengers would probably mean us paying out over £15 extra for things like sandwiches, drinks or parking.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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alex_heney, Hmm. Your interpretation of that would appear to bar trade discounts at varying levels - which are widespread in practice. Or would you say Ryanair's alleged behaviour went beyond that?
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it appears ryanair are switching flights from manchester to leeds, liverpoool etc
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8205445.stm
Ryanair is to switch or close nine of the 10 routes it currently operates from Manchester Airport, blaming the airport's refusal to lower its charges.
The firm said most affected flights would be switched to East Midlands, Leeds Bradford, and Liverpool airports.
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| achilles wrote: |
| alex_heney, Hmm. Your interpretation of that would appear to bar trade discounts at varying levels - which are widespread in practice. Or would you say Ryanair's alleged behaviour went beyond that? |
Yes, I would.
The airports can give Ryanair a discount, but what they can't do is make an agreement with Ryanair to not allow any other airline to fly from them as cheaply.
And that is what Winterhighland was saying the stories claim.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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alex_heney, OK, I get that now, thanks.
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"most favoured nations" provisions aren't unusual in commercial arrangements, that is where you say that if anyone else gets a better deal, your deal will be adjusted to match it. presumably Ryanair's terms go beyond that
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| The days of 'cheap' airlines is severely limited, the airlines may survive or not, but the actual price paid in future wont be cheap that's for sure. The number of airlines has contracted, the capacity has contracted and even those still going are slashing and burning their schedule. There is only one way prices are going to go at the first sign of the economy picking up, and that is skywards. Longer term as the world recovers from the credit crunch skywards is where the crude oil price will no doubt be heading again too. |
Unfortunately for my wallet, I think your assessement is correct...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Arno wrote: |
| "most favoured nations" provisions aren't unusual in commercial arrangements, that is where you say that if anyone else gets a better deal, your deal will be adjusted to match it. presumably Ryanair's terms go beyond that |
That clause restricts quite severely the agreements you can make with one supplier regarding what you are allowed to do with other suppliers.
I think you can probably get away with "most favoured" groups (such as Nations), but not "most favoured" single supplier agreements.
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You know it makes sense.
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jonm, can make good sense to resist price cutting. Need to be sure of your market though. Maybe the result will still be satisfactory to Manchester airport (in that it can attract sufficient revenue at its present price levels) as well as to Ryanair. We shall see.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Already jet2 are increasing capacity there, and I bet EJ will follow.
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Poster: A snowHead
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You wouldnt want manchester getting pregnant would you 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| ... the increased operating requirements for the extra flights is meet with reduced overall per person airport charges = poorer and poorer service as others have alluded to. |
Just what Ryanair want. If they can get all aspects of the trip down to the sh*tt*est level possible, then people will start believing that they really did pay a penny for their flight - "it can't possibly be as bad as this if I'd really paid £60"... 
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