 Poster: A snowHead
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Kids going enough times now that we have taken the leap and bought them skis and boots. Going into this season it has just dawned on me that we will have 5 pairs of ski and 2 boards, thats a lot of servicing and cost. How easy is it to do your own servicing, how easy is it to learn? TIA.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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thefatcontroller, I'm taking a lesson with Spydejon next month and buying all the kit from him. Seemed the easiest option for me and comes highly recommended.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, Cheers, looking like £25 for a lesson and £100 for basic kit to service. Should pay for itself very quickly, will give him a bell later 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, Cheers, looking like £25 for a lesson and £100 for basic kit to service. Should pay for itself very quickly, will give him a bell later
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| rob@rar, Cheers, looking like £25 for a lesson and £100 for basic kit to service. Should pay for itself very quickly, will give him a bell later |
I had a lesson on saturday with Jon. Can definetley recommend.
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| .... how easy is it to learn? TIA. |
Very.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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£100 for basic kit to service seems a bit too much for "basic kit". Realistically you don't need all that much of stuff, to have basics covered. For beginning you don't need all those tools to sharpen edges. Diamond file for deburring is pretty much only thing you need. Contrary to what lot of people thing, real edge tuning is not necessary on daily basis. Even WC racers have their skis tuned every 2nd or 3rd day (for training), and they ski on such ice as most of people here will never put their skis on. Most of ski resorts are relatively soft, so there's no need to have proper edge tuning more then ever 15-20 days of skiing, probably even less.
But there is something which should be done almost on daily basis... and that's waxing. For this you need iron (it doesn't need to be proper wax iron, but it can be some old iron, which your wife doesn't need anymore), some waxes, plastic scraper, brush and that's about it. And of course some space in basement (preferably with good ventilation) and patience. Learning how to wax skis is easy (learning how to pick right wax is different, but for basics it's also pretty easy), learning how to debur edges is also easy, learning how to properly tune edges is a bit harder, but it's also not rocket science. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yeah £100 for basic kit seems loads to me. For basic servicing i just use a blow torch, ptex rods, a crappy iron from a charity shop (no holes in the bottom), a standard file and any straight edged bit of solid material (git of perspex or some metal) for scraping. My dad bodged an edge file by bolted a file to the side of a block of wood. Admittedly this ins't ideal but it could be worse. There's no way in hell that lot would cost anywhere near £100.
I have used a proper wax iron. Don't know if it was buggered or something but the charity shop purchase works a lot better. I have however bought one of those ptex guns off spyderjon as it does give a better fill the blow torch blobbing but that was for a bday pressie for my dad that i'm just going to steal.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yes £100 seems a ridiculously high amount to me too. I've got an old pram from the tip I use as a stand and just tagged a couple of playdough vices to the side. Wobbles a bit but feel the cheapness. For waxing I melt down old candles but the matches and lighters add up so I often wait for a lightning strike. For an iron I use a bit of old breeze block I leave lying in the sun to heat up.
£3.24p sorted
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thefatcontroller, Highly recommend Spyderjon, with 5 pairs of ski's as you say you'll recover the cost, IMHO your better of having the right tools for the job, Jon will only sell you what you need, fortunately for me!
For the cost you might as well get an proper iron to go with it and consider a vice ( I know you can do it on the back of a chair or using a workmate).
You could just do the course and then make up your own mind, its worth the £25.00 as you get atleast one pair of ski's serviced
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You know it makes sense.
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Proper wax iron works better then "normal" one. Main difference is that it controls temperature better. But in general it's really not necessary. Sure when I was serviceman for our WC team, I have been using real one and I still have real one (or two of them ) at home, but there's difference waxing fluoro powders where 5-10c difference makes wax behave differently or waxing some all-round wax where 20c difference doesn't change a thing. So for home use, wax irons are just way overpriced items you can easily do without.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| primoz wrote: |
£100 for basic kit to service seems a bit too much for "basic kit". Realistically you don't need all that much of stuff, to have basics covered. For beginning you don't need all those tools to sharpen edges. Diamond file for deburring is pretty much only thing you need. Contrary to what lot of people thing, real edge tuning is not necessary on daily basis. Even WC racers have their skis tuned every 2nd or 3rd day (for training), and they ski on such ice as most of people here will never put their skis on. Most of ski resorts are relatively soft, so there's no need to have proper edge tuning more then ever 15-20 days of skiing, probably even less.
But there is something which should be done almost on daily basis... and that's waxing. For this you need iron (it doesn't need to be proper wax iron, but it can be some old iron, which your wife doesn't need anymore), some waxes, plastic scraper, brush and that's about it. And of course some space in basement (preferably with good ventilation) and patience. Learning how to wax skis is easy (learning how to pick right wax is different, but for basics it's also pretty easy), learning how to debur edges is also easy, learning how to properly tune edges is a bit harder, but it's also not rocket science. |
I've been self tuning for donkeys years, agree that you just need diamond stones, not files. Also you don't need to wax every day. I find a decent home wax will just about last a weeks recreational skiing in decent snow.
Cheers,
greg
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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spyderjon, Thanks. I'll be in contact
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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RPF, I have a little B&D workmate which I have used in the hall with a decorating sheet on the floor 
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I got a couple of those ball 'n socket joint vices from Aldi. Screwed them to the front of my work bench in the garage and they work a treat. Wax easily lasts a week, esp with Zardoz. I do the edges after every trip but take out a stone, edge guide and a couple of diamond files so that I can touch them up mid trip if it's icy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| . If you deburr with a diamond file your stone will last about 5 minutes as the case hardened surface of a burr is harder than either a metal file or a diamond file. |
I guess don't know much about ski prep, but deburring with diamond file always worked fine for me. And I still have same one after quite few years  More expensive? I guess it would be, but from this what I just saw on web, Swix diamond file is around 20eur, which is not all that much.
| spyderjon wrote: |
| primoz wrote: |
| .........there's no need to have proper edge tuning more then ever 15-20 days of skiing, probably even less. |
Yeh right |
If you need to tune edges every day, and have skis waxed every month, then you are definitely doing something wrong. WC racers, don't get their edges tuned every day for quite some time, while their skis still get waxed every day. Edges on relatively soft terrain (what normal ski resorts are compared to icy WC courses) last much longer, while base gets "dry" pretty fast. When base is getting grey spots, it's time for waxing, and at least for me, it's pretty much daily. But obviously racing skis, with right service (regular hotboxing, waxing, including transport/storage wax) have different behavior then recreational skis. But then again, considering I got at least few info in years when I was serviceman with our World Cup team, I really doubt they would start making different sort of p-tex for recreational skis, which holds wax a whole lot better then p-tex used for racing skis.
As I wrote, I still get to ski huge part of my snow time on courses prepared for racers (read: icy), and I never see any reason to do real edge tuning more then once every 2 weeks or so, while I regularly wax skis after every second day (day's when I needed to wax skis for every training are long gone). And it really doesn't matter if edges are done by hand or by one of those "new" machines they are using last few years for doing edges. If I have them done with one of these machines, they only last even longer. But then again, I actually understand why you would be pushing edge tuning over waxing
I have no idea what Zardoz Notwax is, but based on 2 minutes of googling I would say it's something similar to whole bunch of "paste" waxes which manufacturers like Swix, Toko, Holmenkoll had out for years. And none of them lasted more then day.
| spyderjon wrote: |
| Jeez primoz, you really do talk some shoite! |
As I wrote... what should I know about ski prep anyway, so I'm not going to argue about this anymore.
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primoz, I've never said that you should be doing a full edge tune every day. Regular deburring is a must with touching-up with a diamond(s) as necessary. I usually only need to take a file to my edges after a week or two's use & then it only takes a couple of passes with a fine file & they're back to full fettle.
WC racing has different demands on equipment. Using your 'often cited experience' in that field to advise recreational skiers that their skis need to be waxed daily or every other day is poor advice. I know plenty of resort based high end recreational skiers & instructors who are definately not waxing that frequently & they have no issues with their bases greying etc.
The majority of skiers on this board are UK based & will take week long skiing trips were it is not practical to take an iron/wax/scaper etc. If bases are reasonably prepped (not even hot boxed) they will certainly go a week of use in most conditions. And as we're waxing in the UK for relatively unknown conditions a good uni wax with a wide snow operating temp range is all that's required in most cases. Yes, sometimes the bases might loose a bit of glide after 4/5 of days but that is were products like ZN come in to supplement the wax. Yes, ZN only lasts a day but it's inexpensive, light, compact, takes only seconds to apply & will give the required results until the skier's back home in a few days when the skis can be hot waxed again.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| primoz wrote: |
I have no idea what Zardoz Notwax is, but based on 2 minutes of googling I would say it's something similar to whole bunch of "paste" waxes which manufacturers like Swix, Toko, Holmenkoll had out for years. And none of them lasted more then day.
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Zardoz Notwax is not similar to a paste wax by any moderately strict meaning of the word 'similar'. There is no volatile carrier and no waxy base. It is most often applied similarly, but that is where the similarity to 'classic' (i.e. not nano-formulated) 'paste' waxes ends.
BTW it came on market just after a highly fluorinated paste wax from one of the companies you cite, as an improvement in ease of use and range of application.
| primoz wrote: |
If you need to tune edges every day, and have skis waxed every month, then you are definitely doing something wrong. WC racers, don't get their edges tuned every day for quite some time, while their skis still get waxed every day. |
Compared to WC racers, infinitesimally few skiers on this board are doing everything right. Yes, the skiers on this board hack their edges. This is not news. And the skiers on this board generally run their skis flat instead of using the high edge angles that focus weight (and wax loss) to strips of ptex near the edge. All of which makes spyderjon's recommendations a bit more relevant to the majority of skiers on this board.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 9-08-09 14:00; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
The majority of skiers on this board are UK based & will take week long skiing trips were it is not practical to take an iron/wax/scaper etc. If bases are reasonably prepped (not even hot boxed) they will certainly go a week of use in most conditions. And as we're waxing in the UK for relatively unknown conditions a good uni wax with a wide snow operating temp range is all that's required in most cases. |
I really should point out that the above said majority of skiers, on their UK-based week-long skiing trips, sees, on average, better, softer snow than most anyone who does not actually live in Utah or Colorado.
-Never- would I advise someone on the east coast of the US, for example, to go that long without waxing, because the majority of their gliding will be on manmade, 'retail' snow.
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You know it makes sense.
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thefatcontroller, I'm skipping the disagreement that developed above and repeating all the recommendations to go see spyderjon.
A session with him, some outlay on kit and i have now happily serviced 2 pairs of skis for multiple trips away and summer storage.
Once you get used to it, it's actually quite a therapeutic way to spend the evening - me and my diamond files in front of the telly with a glass of wine
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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magic_hat, Don't worry the b*llocks that erupts from a simple question is the reason I very rarely post on here. Thanks for input and I'll be in contact with spyderjon. Cheers
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Poster: A snowHead
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Don’t know if it’s different for a board, but I tend to find a shop hot wax lasts me about 3 days of riding, though I tend to cover a lot of ground and usually go all day first lift to last.
I did a mid April trip to Cham this year, and whilst we had some overnight fresh on a few of the nights, making for awesome mornings, it was hot hot hot in the day and was slush early afternoon. Wax barely seemed to last a day. By the end of day two I was literally coming to a standstill on the flat run down to the chair on the Vallorcine side, even with a midday application of a pocket rub on wax.
I remember having my board first waxed in Vallandry when it was a few days old and I couldn’t believe the difference it made - on the long flat traverse from the bottom of the Plan Bois chair across to the bottom of the Transarc in 1800 I left my mates standing and had enough glide to cruise it all the way, leaving them to unstrap and skate stretches.
I’m sure you could leave your board/skis for weeks and they’d still work ok but you’d be loosing all the benefit of what the base is designed for - which is to absorb wax and slowly release it.
I’ve had a few naff shop waxes of late though so I’m thinking of getting my own kit.
Someone mentioned above using a diamond file for deburring - isn’t that what the gummi stone is used for ?
Also I’ve seen some kits sold with whopping great b*stard files like you’d see in the old school metalwork class. Do you use these first without a guide, then stick the diamond file in your edge tool for finishing ? I can’t imagine holding a big cumbersome file and managing to apply pressure whilst keeping it true to the edge/base without screwing the edge angle.
Is a gummi stone and an edge tuning tool sufficient for a basic edge service ?
When people mention diamond files - do you mean a diamond file that goes in your edge guide ?
This was going to be my kit list :-
Edge tuner tool or file guide+file
gummi stone
cheapie dry iron
perspex scraper
wax
base cleaner
structure brush
ptex candle
metal scraper
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Someone mentioned above using a diamond file for deburring - isn’t that what the gummi stone is used for ? |
Yes.
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Also I’ve seen some kits sold with whopping great b*stard files like you’d see in the old school metalwork class. Do you use these first without a guide, then stick the diamond file in your edge tool for finishing ? I can’t imagine holding a big cumbersome file and managing to apply pressure whilst keeping it true to the edge/base without screwing the edge angle. |
B'stard file is for setting (or resetting) the initial side angle, using the guide. No need to apply massive pressure. Thereafter that file can remain in the toolbox indefinitely.
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Is a gummi stone and an edge tuning tool sufficient for a basic edge service ?
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Yes.
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When people mention diamond files - do you mean a diamond file that goes in your edge guide ? |
Yes
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This was going to be my kit list :-
Edge tuner tool or file guide+file - second of these preferred (by me anyway).
gummi stone
cheapie dry iron
perspex scraper
wax
base cleaner
structure brush
ptex candle
metal scraper
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looks OK to me
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Gazzza, have a look at http://www.jonsskituning.co.uk, then look at the tuning guide (not a bad place to buy your gear either), should help you with how to use the bits of kit, personally I would invest in a proper iron less hassle.
Structure brush, choose a brass brush helps with cleaning and then polishing the base and giving some structure
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Gazzza, Alu oxide stone would also be very useful (more so than the gummi for certain things). If you are in the habit of hitting rocks the alu oxide will make removing the resulting dings much easier.
Might I also recommend http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5528
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| gorilla wrote: |
| Gazzza, Alu oxide stone would also be very useful (more so than the gummi for certain things). If you are in the habit of hitting rocks the alu oxide will make removing the resulting dings much easier.... |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I did find in the past that the average shop wax doesn't always last a week. But spending a fair bit of time really getting the bases impregnated (Zardoz underneath makes it even better) utilising multiple passes with the iron and wax, scraping and brushing seems to easily last for 6 days skiing with no fuzzy bits. Wonder if doing more piste skiing would strip the wax off quicker though 
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FAQ
and the Black and Decker workmate I had planned to use. IMO the proper iron is worth the money (and I got the mini one), I drove myself insane with the Tesco one, I couldn't get it to maintain a workable temperature and it scratched the bases. The soothing experience of waxing became very frustrating 
Another tip is to get everyone's edges set to the same angle that way you'll only need the one side edge angle guide.
