 Poster: A snowHead
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I thought I would update on my trip with my 4-year old daughter this past weekend.
My daughter is a 4 ½ year old who has already had 6 or 7 half day lessons in Switzerland and so is "comfortable" on snow. Additionally about 2 months ago she had a 30 minute private lesson with the excellent Rod Ferguson at The Snow Centre. Rod said she is at "Level" 4 or 5 although she did have some problems using the main drag lift.
Anyway, I phoned and pre-booked the lesson, which was for 1-hour starting at 8.30am on Saturday morning. The under-6’s lessons start earlier then other group lessons.
The cost for the 1-hour group lesson is £18 including boots, skis and helmet hire, which I thinks is good value. The equipment seems new and in good condition. You can also hire ski clothes although that was not necessary for us.
Anyway, we got their bright and early at 8.15  and got the equipment quickly and easily.
My daughter was in a class with only 1 other boy (who looked far closer to being 6 years old) and an instructor who himself looked like he was about 14 years old!
I made it clear to the instructor that we were there so my daughter could become more confident on the drag lift.
Anyway, the lesson started and for some reason the drag lift was not working at the start. The instructor therefore started with the kids side stepping up the main slope and skiing back down to the flat. While stepping up hill is an important skill to master, after about 40 minutes I could see that the kids were getting tired and bored - particularly as they had to put in a great deal of effort for about 10 seconds of skiing back down. 
Eventually the instructor did take them to the drag lift (that had been operating for the previous 30 mins). As I could have predicted, my by now tired daughter face planted after 3 metres.  The instructor looked completely terrified and out of his depth having to deal with a crying 4½ year old little girl. After a couple of minutes she stopped crying but rather then having the confidence/experience at getting her back on the drag (- she had been to the top 2 months earlier…) he took them back to the slope for some more side stepping.
The father of the other boy in the class immediately went to complain (apparently something similar had happened the week before when his son spent the full hour watching another kid fall and cry)  . To their credit, The Snow Centre did send out another instructor to go with the boy for the last 10 minutes of the lesson ( - in fact he went straight up to the top without difficulty), however his father told me that they had driven for over an hour to get there and that is a long way to drive for essentially 10 minutes skiing…
Fortunately for us, we live about 15 mins drive away, so I will pop back in the next couple of weeks with my daughter for a private lesson (£30 for 30 mins) with a more experienced instructor to make sure that she does get the confidence she needs on the drag lift.
The Snow Centre is a fantastic facility and gives kids a great opportunity to learn to ski or improve their skiing. However some of the instructors are extremely inexperienced and should not be teaching small kids (whatever level they are at). Teaching small kids to ski does not involve the same skills and techniques that you would use for an older child or an adult and frankly I felt that the instructor on Saturday was completely out of his depth. This is something for the management of the Snow Centre to sort out if they are going to offer lessons for smaller children.
I certainly would recommend The Snow Centre but if you are going with a small child (under 6?) make sure that you get an instructor who has the skills and experience to handle the class or spend a little more and get a private lesson.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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1556garyt, Thanks for the report.
I am planning to take my 4 & 5 year olds for a refresher lesson or two before we head off to the Alps next March. They both did Snocubs at MK last winter followed by a week in france. They are both pretty happy snoughplough turning down blue runs but the youngest is not very confident on drag lifts. She did manage a few back in March but I think the whole idea of being alone on a lift was too scary for a 3 year old, especially when she could get away with going up with mummy. I was thinking or trying out Hemel but think I might stick to MK - the instructors we had for Snocubs were fantastic with the kids. Does Hemel not have a Magic Carpet to avoid the side stepping? I'm hoping to get them happy on the lifts before we go as one of the ski schools I have been looking at will only accept under 6's who can use a drag lift independently (apparently over 6's can fall off at will!) 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Skimummy, There are two rope tows on the nursery slope and two drag lifts on the main slope. As you are only up the road why not pop down and have a look at the place. You can always have a rummage in Snow and Rock even if you decide you don't like the look of the slope! The parking is free and of course looking costs nothing too.
1556garyt, I'm sorry that you had a less than happy experience at the weekend, especially as you had such a good time with Rod. Did you raise the problem with the ski school or duty manager?
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Kitty - I did raise it with the duty manager right at the end of the lesson but he simply said that the instructor was inexperienced (which hardly gave me a great deal of confidence) and said he would have a word... His recommendation was that I come back and have a private lesson with someone else!
As it happens I have booked a private lesson with Rod for next week, although of course my point was slightly more general insofar as if TSC is going to offer lessons for little children, they must ensure they have the right instructors. As I said in my review, I do not believe that your average 17 year old (irrespective of their ski ability and ski qualifications) is equipped to deal with 4,5 or 6 year olds...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I am continually appalled at the standards that parents seem to accept at the various "real snow" centres. Overcome your prejudice and go to one of the many slopes around the country that have been teaching kids to ski for decades. You'll pay a fraction of the price and get far more experienced coaches at a fraction of the price and in much smaller groups. IMO the (junior) staff at most artificial snow slopes (mostly) just don't have the experience of dealing with young children , where if you go with a slope where they've been running kids sessions for many years you'll see that experience matters.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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[quote="1556garyt"]Kitty - I did raise it with the duty manager right at the end of the lesson but he simply said that the instructor was inexperienced /quote]
At which point, did you ask for a ful refund?? If I am paying for a service, I expect to get it.
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RobW, To be fair to Hemel, it was previously a dry slope and many of the same instructors work there now so there are plenty of experienced people working there.
Unfortunately inexperienced instructors are often given the kids to teach, whereas for many people this is much harder than teaching adults.
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inexperienced instructors are often given the kids to teach, whereas for many people this is much harder than teaching adults.
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then this is a management problem, and needs sorting out. The story above is a sad one - likely to put a little girl off skiing for life. I've been wondering about taking my grand-daughter for a lesson somewhere (she's 5, total beginner, coming to France at Christmas) but the prospect of an experience like this is not a happy one. A lad I know, who did a gap year training thing and got up to BASI 2, told a horrendous story of being given a HUGE group of schoolkids to teach, when he did his work experience at one of the artificial slopes (I've honestly forgotten which one). It's not good enough, is it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w, I didn't mean at Hemel, I meant generally. Most first season instructors will end up teaching children.
Personally, I prefer teaching young children in slightly larger groups. It's less intense, more social interaction, and much easier to play "games" with a small group of say 4 to 6 children.
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On relection I think that for younger children (under 6?) a 1/2 hour private session at the Snow Centre (or anywhere else for that matter) with an instructor who can focus solely on that one child is better than a 1 hour class with other kids (even if there is only 1 other kid in the class...).
From a broader perspective I cannot get away from the view that teaching very small kids to ski should be seen as a high level specialism and not given to a "gap year instructors" who generally will not be able to manage the special requirements that little kids have...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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1556garyt, agree with you that a half hour private lesson is sufficient for small children, but they can cope with longer in a small group. Of course it does depend on the individual child, and some will be better one to one.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beanie1, I was about to say the same!
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It appears that 1556garyt's, child had a rather bad experience. Not being a parent, I can imagine being that being made responsible for someone elses child, for any length of time, is not unlike being thrown to to wolves.....
So, are children generally taught by junior or less experienced instructors? Is there not some sort of child specific training as part of the BASI or other ski curriculum?
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You know it makes sense.
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
| IIs there not some sort of child specific training as part of the BASI |
The BASI courses I've done so far have not had specific training for teaching children, but it is a frequent topic of discussion in both practical and theory sessions. The teaching sessions that we are graded on will sometimes be based on teaching kids classes.
Some of the CSIA resources I've seen are good for their coverage of teaching kids, but I suspect that, as in most things, having lots of experience and being able to observe good practitioners is the best way to become a reasonable teacher yourself.
1556garyt, if you're booking a private lesson at The Snow Centre for your daughter I'd recommend Toby Fishel. He's very good with kids.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 13-07-09 23:21; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
| I can imagine being that being made responsible for someone elses child, for any length of time, is not unlike being thrown to to wolves... |
One is fine, but when you have 8 of them it's definitely like being thrown to the wolves!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
It appears that 1556garyt's, child had a rather bad experience. Not being a parent, I can imagine being that being made responsible for someone elses child, for any length of time, is not unlike being thrown to to wolves.....
So, are children generally taught by junior or less experienced instructors? Is there not some sort of child specific training as part of the BASI or other ski curriculum? |
APSI have a kids cert which is sort of intermediate between APSI 1 and APSI 2.... many instructors do it after level 1 (especially as they get a lot of kids)... the problem is (of course) that you do need to do level 1 first - which requires you to be working for a ski school ... hence you are working before level 1 and after 1 but before kids cert.. and are likely to get kids...
Thredbo hires specialist kids instructors IIRC and train them with kids...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
having lots of experience and being able to observe good practitioners is the best way to become a reasonable teacher yourself.
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I think this is the real point - while specialist training on working with small kids should be a minimum requirement for any instructor teaching that age group, nothing beats experience! I appreciate that the best way to get experience is by doing but this is something that the management of ski schools need to think about and if they have to pair experienced and inexperienced instructors together, then so be it.
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rob@rar, Interesting - the CSIA -from a skiing aquaintance who recently did L2 - does look specifically at child development, and what expectations of ability and behaviour should be at different ages. I am surprised - as a punter - if this is not specifically dealt with in BASI.
Having said which - as a regular client of kids ski schools in the US and Canada - the things that seemed most important were class size (ie more than 4 or 5 is simply too many in beginner children skiers) and total experience .Going back to a placewhere the kids instructors were the same each year - and actually seemed to enjoy teaching kids - was important.
1556garyt, You will have gathered that there are some snowHeads who are instructors and managers at Hemel. I suspect that posting your experience here will have served a useful purpose.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 14-07-09 10:15; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm surprised at the lack of any focus on kids in the BASI scheme, too. Apart from all the usual developmental stuff about ability to concentrate, understand verbal instructions etc (relevant for any kind of care of small kids and covered by school leavers doing the most elementary training in child care) you don't need to be any kind of expert to see that kids ski in a wholly different way to adults, and need to be taught in a different way. Although clearly very small classes are ideal, there are plenty of now rather good skiers throughout the Alps who learnt in big (10 - 12) classes with French, Swiss, Austrian, Italian, instructors and seem to have survived.
Because my grandchildren are coming skiing for the first time this Christmas I was watching the local instructors with kids classes quite a lot last season. Apart from marvelling at their ability and patience (mostly, though not the instructor who was standing well down the slope yelling impatiently and crossly at one little lass who had fallen awkwardly and her big brother who was loyally trying to help her  ) I noticed some really good exercises they were doing. For example, having them all round in a big semi circle, on the flat, lifting first one ski, then the other, and balancing on the one leg. They got quite good at that - then the instructor said "Right, now lift both skis at once!". The kids looked puzzled for a bit, then one enterprising lad started jumping both feet in the air and they were soon all at it, and thoroughly enjoying themselves. First class drill, and it was getting them warm, too. You do see a few miserable kids in classes from time to time but maybe French kids are a bit more self sufficient than ours? When I stopped to rescue the two kids stuck well above their instructor I was also extremely impressed with the lad who had stopped by his sister. He had ignored the instructor shouting at him to get going, stuck by her vainly trying to pick her up, and then thanked me in a very natural and polite way when I eventually managed to get her skis and legs all pointing in the same direction. The instructor thanked me too, when I passed him, but I was a lot less impressed with him!
But if you have to get 12 kids down a mountain......?
I also saw groups quite often doing skiing backwards - they were just tiny kids, and obviously beginners, but they were having fun doing that exercise at a far earlier stage than most instructors would introduce it to adults. Kids ability to fall over and not bother about it (as opposed to many adult beginners morbid fear of falling) must make a big difference to optimum teaching technique.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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1556garyt, Hi, I am one of the Directors of The Snow Centre and take on board your feedback. Some instructors are better with young skiers than others, that is quite clear to me. As we move forwards we will create a group of instructors who we know are talented in this area.
Your childs instructor may have been young and inexperienced (in your opinion), however he would have had to attend and pass a qualification followed by a period of shadowing to gain his qualification. So if he was young he had done well to pass this showing dedication. Hopefully he will continue to gain in confidence and develop in to a good all round instructor, our aim here is to develop our staff.
It sounds like you had a great experience with Rod as your childs instructor. Im sure he will be available for more lessons in the future. I would suggest a half hour private.
PSG
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gilleski, Thank you for the feedback. I was not looking to have a go at the instructor himself - its not his fault he does not have the experience yet and I have no doubt that he is a dedicated individual and may well be a talented instructor. Rather I felt that TSC should focus more on the fact that smaller kids need instructors that have the right skills and experience to look after them and that their needs are different to older children/adults . While I fully accept that you want to develop your staff, such development should never come at the expense of your customers.
I think it is to your credit that you have responded as you have and I hope my post goes a little way to improving the instruction that
small children receive at the Snow Centre.
We'll be back on Saturday for a lesson with Rod!
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1556garyt, Thank you very much. The people on this forum who know me also know thatt our guest experience here at TSC is my top priority and my aim is to create and develop the best possible snowsports school in the UK. I will always respond to feedback and take steps to change the things that need changing.
Look forwards to meeting you at some point here at TSC.
PSG
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Guys,
I'm teaching at Gosling and I run/manage our Junior Ski club programme that runs on Saturday mornings. I'll NEVER let new instructors out to teach without first seeing them teach with close supervision of one of my experienced instructors for a few lessons. Teaching is an art, and teaching kids a black art. Some do not do it well, some are very very good at it. IT IS part of the learning / shadowing process and I insist that any people who want to teach at Gosling do some shadowing of instructors on Saturday mornings to see how they teach kids; some do not make the grade!!!!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We have had similar experiances with our son at various slopes in the UK, and when away in the alps, the instructor seems to make such a huge difference to the younger children. Our son is now 6 and attends Junior club on a saturday morning at our local dry slope, and the instructors there are all good, but the kids have the ones they enjoy being taught by, you often hear a groan or a cheer depending on which instructors are present! However since he has turned 6 this is less of a problem perhaps because he is used to the idea of taking direction.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| fizz wrote: |
| We have had similar experiances with our son at various slopes in the UK, and when away in the alps, the instructor seems to make such a huge difference to the younger children. Our son is now 6 and attends Junior club on a saturday morning at our local dry slope, and the instructors there are all good, but the kids have the ones they enjoy being taught by, you often hear a groan or a cheer depending on which instructors are present! However since he has turned 6 this is less of a problem perhaps because he is used to the idea of taking direction. |
One probelm we, as instructors and in my case running these sessions is that the kids do not got TOO attached to one instructor as they then get a big shock when they HAVE to have someone else. It IS a fine balance and a difficult one to manage.
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Kids seem to love to learn and have fun. Combining these to things seems to be the best approach.
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You know it makes sense.
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Have read through this thread with interest as my two (5 and 6) have been having lessons at a dry ski slope over the last few months. I have been really impressed with how all the instructors who have had to try and teach my 5 yr old have managed her. She is desperate to join in but seems to take a silly pill as soon as she hits the slopes and falls over for the sheer hell of it, goes as fast as she can whenever the instructor gets out of the way... and yet she has still learnt loads. She is happy and keen to go skiing, she can (when she chooses) move round on her skis easily, use the lift... and on occasion she can even stop. Ok - unlike her sister even after many more lessons she is still pants but she has a positive attitude to the whole thing which will hopefully bode well for when she is somewhere colder!
I think teaching young kids (I guess I mean under 6ish) must be a bit of a lottery esp when what you are teaching them is a 'fun' activity rather than school 'sit down and do as I say' activity so much depends on whether the child wants to listen and try and do it at that instant in time.... my lo is always desperate to go back in between times but you would not nec guess this when we are actually there! It has been the 'young lads' who have got her to focus the best and been the most imaginative in ways of catching her attention when she is being particularly silly. Must say I think it is quite a hard job!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Blimey this is an old thread! But I thought I would make a contribution.
Now with almost 4 winters under our belt we have literally introduced thousands of children to skiing. Many often are now high level performers and regular attendees in our junior snow stars programme.
A few things for parents to consider:
It is important to have realistic expectations when introducing children to skiing and this is where I think many parent get it wrong. Firstly this will be a very strange environment for a child and at a young age and you are the centre of their world (the parent). Separating a child from a parent is sometimes stressful ( like when they start nursery) and they may display some anxiety, this is perfectly normal. Children heat up and cool down very quickly so can get uncomfortable at a different rate to adults who have a well developed heat regulation system. The heaviest part of a child is the head so their centre of mass is higher than an adult. This gives the elusion that the are sitting back (they are in fact just standing in a perfectly counter balanced position). As a child gets older and taller their centre of mass migrates down. A child does not have the muscle strength of and adult and their bones act as shorter leavers. For this reason creating a plough is quite difficult and takes time to learn. Once learnt it becomes a robust all terrain vehicle and will go anywhere! We shouldn’t rush children in to parallel skiing, this will come naturally. We aim to develop steering and control of line with versatility.
I think often adults look at a child learning and try to draw parallels to how they learnt (as adults). Judgments are then made as what IS taking place does not match the adults expectation. The over riding factor is it has to be fun, the child needs to want to do it and the parents expectations need to be set realistically.
Pete Gillespie
Snowsport School / Guest services manager
BASI Alpine trainer ISTD / ISIA
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Poster: A snowHead
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Once learnt it becomes a robust all terrain vehicle and will go anywhere!
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I love that expression - and it's so true!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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+1 for the racing snowplough.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wow - what an old thread - my 5 year old who could happily snowplough down a blue run has just come back from France with an ESI gold award and tales of which rooftops he jumped off, how cool he is off-piste and how Mummy was too much of a wuss to follow him down an unpisted black
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A great follow-up gilleski, and very interesting. Especially about the center of gravity, it's obvious in hindsight, but wasn't something I'd considered before.
As my boy's 2 1/2 I'll be looking to getting him skiing asap, so this sort of stuff is good to hear.
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FAQ
