 Poster: A snowHead
|
Here's an article just published on ifyouski.com concerning ski accidents and the best ways to prevent them.
Are the problems correctly identified by the quoted solicitor Michael Gwilliam - a partner with Vizards Wyeth - "who specialises in advising travel companies and their insurers"?
Are the solutions he's proposing the ones that really address the problems?
Time for a debate!
I'll see if we can hook up with Michael Gwilliam, if he'd like to participate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
| Michael says: "While ski crash helmets might not be as cool as a multi-coloured jester's hat..." |
Since when was a multi-coloured jester's hat cool?
I thought they went out of fashion in the 1980s!
I also think that suggesting helmets are mainly for beginners is also a bit short of the mark. When I was beginning, I didn't go near the trees, or steep, rocky terrain. Now my helmet protects me from low branches, and the kind of things you find on off-piste runs.
Apart from that, I think he's on the right track.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
I think he's on the right track.
|
Fox - As a dedicated follower of ski instruction (and fashion) I'm surprised you've not picked up on what seems to be the major omission. He doesn't mention taking lessons in skiing/boarding once!
It's all very well promoting fitness but a fit lune, out of control on a pair of high-speed steel-edged planks, is a human projectile with considerable destructive potential.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
David Goldsmith,
I have to agree - education comes first, surely?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
David Goldsmith, sorry, I blame the jetlag.
OK, then:
1. EpicSki Academy. (did I mention it's in Snowbird next year starting on 29th January, and that any snowHeads attending it will be helping admin keep this site going)
2. Responsibility Code.
3. Fitness.
4. Protection.
5. Equipment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
The gist of his article is that 1st time skiers and children are particularly likely to be injured. I don't think fitness (or the lack of it) is a very significant factor for those 2 categories. Poor physical condition is more likely to bring harm to an intermediate (or even an expert) who doesn't realise how unfit they have become and who tries to ski/board the way they did when they were younger and fitter souls. I do like however his suggestions about slope etiquette and simple safety gear like wrist guards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The article is 'bitty' - and I think focuses too much on equipment. He doesn't say anything wrong - but perhaps doesn't think bigger picture.
I think the best way to avoid injury are 1) knowing the safety code and 2) some form of instruction as these apply to everyone - boarders and skiers.
Helmets - very useful for kids, speed merchants and off-pisters - not an essential for people pottering on blues
Wrist guards - yes for beginner boarders
Fitness - yes it helps you make the most of the holiday but how does it prevent accidents. Surely if you are tired you go to the bar??? ok a tired person on steep icy slope that is beyond their ability - but in reality a better technique (instruction) is surely better than fitness...
Don't know how you persuade the 'intermediate' skier to take a lesson though. I'm thinking of the types that think they know it all, and will cruise around at high speed but in reality are in less control than they think they are.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Speaking as kind of "in the know", what Micheal is really addressing is "how to minimise your legal liability in the event of an accident", and "how to minimise the amount of damages paid out by insurers in the event of an accident". Remember that his firm gives advice to insurers and travel companies - the big guys, not little punters like you and me, so his advice is bound to be biased towards them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
mountain mad,
| Quote: |
| Fitness - yes it helps you make the most of the holiday but how does it prevent accidents. Surely if you are tired you go to the bar??? ok a tired person on steep icy slope that is beyond their ability - but in reality a better technique (instruction) is surely better than fitness... |
I think you underestimate the effects of tiredness. People (I) wont realise how knackered they are getting, and are more likely to fall when tired, and also when a fall occurs the lack of muscle protecting joints will increase the chance of tearing tendon or ligament.
Instruction can of course help here, the Instructor should notice you are about to die and ease up, also good technique is less tiring than bad.
I have the self confidence to say STOP when I am reaching my limit, but a lot of people will keep on trying to stay with the group when they know they should really retire to the bar!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Are the problems correctly identified by the quoted solicitor Michael Gwilliam
|
He only identifies some of them, and certainly not the main ones.
| Quote: |
Are the solutions he's proposing the ones that really address the problems?
|
His solutions really address the problems he poses, but he really hasn't addressed the real problems (athough he does advocate better knowledge of piste etiquette).
He's picked up on minor factors that can be easily addressed by a travel agency, who can then be seen to be "doing something" responsible. However factors most likely to cause injury - in decending order: Lack of technique. Lack of general knowledge about snow conditions and how they affect ski control. Lack of knowledge/application of piste etiquette.
Tour Ops would do best to be seen to be addressing their "relationships" with reputable effective ski schools, rather than with the one that provides the highest kickback, or the best range of helmets.
For the record most skiing injuries are lower leg ones, or middle torso bruising, or spinal injuries. A helmet will do nothing to help with those. Improved fitness is useless you can't safely control your skis in the first place.
Basically, wot LegalSteve says.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Perhaps it's time to invite Michael Gwilliam to the Court of snowHeads. I'll let him know we're on his case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
God no! Don't give the enemy amunition for his own gun! This guy makes his living telling travel cos how to minimise their risk of exposure to insurance claims - which is an entirely different thing to advising skiers/snowboarders on how to keep safe on the slopes. Trust me on this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I thought he deserved a bit of telling off for circulating self-publicity off the back of a rather limited and oddly-focused article: as has been said above, helmets and wristguards are somewhat insignificant in the greater scheme of things.
The way to avoid falling over and hurting yourself is to learn how to control your movements and retain balance. I was going to ask him how much ski instruction he personally has taken and how he managed to ignore the topic!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Of course, he could just say "visit a forum like snowHeads for the lowdown before the showdown".... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
I agree with Manda, listen and learn. We as punters need to be aware of TO and Ins.Co. thought processes. Not to circumvent them, but to make sure that we're not the victims or tautological semantics.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Quoting myself:
| Quote: |
| I thought he deserved a bit of telling off |
... or a slap on the wrist - one reason to use a wristguard!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Manda, while I agree that good technique is probably more important to avoid an injury situation, given a circumstance which is likely to lead to injury stronger muscles will reduce the degree of injury.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
| Vizards Wyeth estimates that of the 1million* Britons who will go skiing or snowboarding in 2005, around 20,000 will receive injuries requiring immediate medical attention on the slopes (and around 3,000-4,000 of these will be DIY-bookers who risked going without insurance). |
Two things here. One, 3 000-4 000 DIY-bookers who can expect to be injured represents in percentage terms about 17.5% of the total number of those injured. The percentage number of DIYers against those who use package holidays is 25%. Does this indicate, therefore, that DIYers are more responsible, or better skiers?
Two, what evidence does this man have that DIYers are risking going away without insurance? Sounds like he's trying to beef up his own industry with remarks that quite probably have no basis in fact. From the various postings here, I'd say that DIYers are probably more likely to have researched their insurance, when you bear in mind that much of their booking is done over the internet, which also provides most of the information about insurance etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Mark Hunter, He could be saying that 3-4000 DIYers who get injured don't take insurance, which would account for the 7.5% difference in the figures, but I suspect that your explanation is more correct as I've yet to meet a skier (DIYer or otherwise) who wasn't insured.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Here's a profile of Michael Gwilliam on the website of the legal practice he's a partner of: Vizards Wyeth. I've left a message on his voicemail that we have a discussion going here, so hopefully he'd like to join it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
skanky, Hadn't really looked at it that way, but if we assume that to be the case, and that DIYers are just as likely to be injured as those who package (personally not convinced about that), then of the 20 000 injured, 5 000 should be those that DIY by virtue of them representing 25% of the marketplace. If one was to believe his statement, that would mean a staggering 70% of DIYers taking no insurance!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mark Hunter, yes 70% does seem rather high, does it not (especially as many people get annual, or company insurance that includes skiing). Their insurance may not be up to the job, but then I'd wager that many TO's insurance is less up to the job than somethone like Snowcard or the other ones mentioned in the "Insurance" thread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hmm..
If you have a head injury whilst skiing, its severity is possibly lessened if you wear a helmet. If you wear a helmet whilst skiiing, and have an accident, you are possibly likely to have an increased risk of neck injury.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7486/281
The studies published to date, AFAIK, do not take into account total numbers of skiers or boarders, and therefore the NNT (number needed to treat) is unknown. If 1000 skiers and boarders had to be made to wear helmets to prevent one death, is that unreasonable? 2000? 10,000?
The sentiment here seems to be education first. I can't see any reason to disagree, but... the problem is, of course, that while you may be in control, there could well be an out of control French/Swiss/Austrian/American/etc etc just about to wipe you out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| john wells wrote: |
| Manda, while I agree that good technique is probably more important to avoid an injury situation, given a circumstance which is likely to lead to injury stronger muscles will reduce the degree of injury. |
Guardian article today
| Quote: |
| According to a recent Sport England survey, they were reminded, 16% of six to 16-year-olds are clinically obese. This generation of schoolchildren will be the first to have a life expectancy shorter than that of their parents. While recognising that investment in sports colleges and community partnerships means things have improved, the council showed that much more remains to be done. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
The sentiment here seems to be education first. I can't see any reason to disagree, but... the problem is, of course, that while you may be in control, there could well be an out of control French/Swiss/Austrian/American/etc etc just about to wipe you out.
|
I have just returned from Val d'Isere and I had a nasty collision on a blue run, which in my opinion is where accidents are more likely to happen, because you become more complacent and get caught off guard. Anyway, I was skiing, slowly and in control down Santons, which gradually gets narrower as you go down, and on one of my turns I saw another skier out of the corner of my eye and the next thing I knew I had slammed down on my back and then my chest. Very winded and took a while before I could move. Not sure whose fault it was, probably 50/50. The other skier was a total gentleman (English obviously) and he and all his friends wouldn't leave me until I was ready to carry on skiing, pulled muscles all down the right side of my body and neck. Luckily I wasn't in pain when skiing, only when doing normal every day stuff! I doubt that a helmet would have lessened my injuries.
If you were the guy I crashed into, I forgot to ask if YOU were ok! Very rude of me, I was busy crying inside my goggles... Sorry! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
snowbabe, sorry to hear about that but it's refreshing to hear there's some good manners around. Someone rode into me at the weekend, picked themselves up and then tried to work out why hitting me from behind wasn't his fault.
Santons is a great run but it's a bit narrow for too much traffic I think. It lacks the space for classic blue run skiers to be able to control their speed for a fairly sustained section.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Yes, too much traffic! And it wasn't even the school holidays!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| ise wrote: |
| snowbabe, sorry to hear about that but it's refreshing to hear there's some good manners around. |
What's the usual thing to do when coming round a corner to find bits of skier scattered around?
You know the score, there's a ski over there, another a bit further down, maybe a pole or 2 somewhere and in a heap nearby is the person who accompanied the gear thus far down the hill. Each time I come across someone like this I always try to collect up their stuff if it's uphill of them and check they're alright before continuing but this year I did notice a tendancy for others to just ignore them and ski past (one twin-tipper even went so far as to steer towards and then jump over an errant ski!!). The people we picked up over the course of a week were all Brits and mostly apologetic for falling over, we've all been there though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
With you on that one FenlandSkier, as, I suspect, are most of us here. Mind you, last time I stopped to help someone recover their stuff and then pull them up, I turned to leave...and promptly fell over - much to the amusement of the guy I just helped
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
My husband caught an edge and fell down most of the very top section of the OK Red run, one ski came off and fell a bit further down from him. I skiied down and went to grab it, knocked it with the tip of my ski's and because the binding hadn't released properly it shot off down the piste, off the side and then finally planted itself in some deep snow. I laughed, my husband told me off, but then saw the funny side. 2 skiiers had stopped and were looking over the edge to see if someone had gone over... Oh, you had to be there I guess...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
john wells wrote:
Manda, while I agree that good technique is probably more important to avoid an injury situation, given a circumstance which is likely to lead to injury stronger muscles will reduce the degree of injury.
I am unsure how stronger muscles and good technique would have had an effect on the collision incident in VT in which my collarbone was broken by a speeding skier-on a green run. My memories of ski05 will be of seeing lots of collisions-unnecessary ones-lots of skiers out of control, and my taking action to get away from the path of such skiers on numerous occasions-but you have to see them coming to avoid them all-I missed the one that nailed me. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Having just come back from La Rosiere where the piste's are virtually empty in comparison with many resorts I was amazed to see so many collisions. Why do skiers or borders go down the piste in close proximity when the other side of the piste is empty? In particular we were standing on the side of a piste in a good visible position when a speeding skier came within a yard of my 7 year old. All he had to do was slip back a little and a nasty accident would have occured. There was nobody esle on the run at the time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
snowbunny, it probably depends on how the idiot nailed you and as always a degree of luck is involved.
Other than the obvious safety feature of stronger muscles reducing fatigue, there are a number of benefits of stronger muscles in an accident rather than to avoid an accident.
For example, the muscles act as shock absorbers which can be very important to reduce the effect of an impact on the joints and bones. Boxers develop strong neck muscles to inhibit the effects of being punched in the head - strong neck muscles are a major factor in reducing whiplash damage to the neck in road accidents.
Again stronger muscles help to keep the body in a normal shape rather than a distorted shape which is more vulnerable to damage.
None of which may have helped you, depends on the specifics.
There is one last benefit of stronger muscles - you weigh more and the little sh*ts are more likely to bounce off and hurt themselves instead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
