 Poster: A snowHead
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
Oh god, it's all gone legal again...
There's only one way to settle this. Nixmap, I'll have to come out and visit... |
Actually a couple of snowhead applicants have already done this. Smart move I thought.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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the world is full of wikilawyers these days.
At least Pam speaks from professional experience.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 11-08-09 23:49; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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nixmap, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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nixmap, what are you actually offering again ? 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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oh for goodness sake RayScoops go to bed. 
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..
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 12-08-09 0:13; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| nixmap wrote: |
the world is full of wikilawyers these days.
At least Pam speaks from professional experience. |
pam w talks loads of sense but she is not, I think, a lawyer. I could be wrong, but I think that actual lawyers are steering well clear of these nebulous and speculative discussions - though they are a fun read (that is until they get too pseudo-lawyerly). If it hadn't been for your anklebiters, btw, I'd have been v tempted to apply - my instinct tells me that the conditions you're offering are probably not too outrageous at all. 
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| nixmap wrote: |
the world is full of wikilawyers these days.
At least Pam speaks from professional experience. |
pam w talks loads of sense but she is not, I think, a lawyer. |
Well she is speaking mostly about the chores involved and their relative worth against the accom, entirely subjective opinions of course, we dont happen to agree, but at least coming from experience, rather than wikipedia, or pointless vitriol.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
nixmap, count me in, but I may do a runner after the first five week days just before you arrive for the first weekend, and as we would have an unenforceable agreement (rather than a contract  ) then thanks for the free holiday
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You might,
but once you get here, with the snow falling and empty slopes, and you work out that your staying in a really nice place, with freindly people, for very little.
Then you think of going back to the rain in wales, where it gets dark at 3pm, nothing to look forward to but another grey week, in the same job you had for every other grey week, of the year.
..you might not.
I wouldnt worry the skiings rubbish and almost as overcrowded as france.... see? completely tracked out 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Actually a couple of snowhead applicants have already done this. Smart move I thought.
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Absolutely essential, I'd have thought...I don't think I'd agree to working for a season without seeing what my 'pay' looked like 
Though having said that, I've previously agreed to work a season without even knowing where so maybe I'm just more fussy than I was...
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You know it makes sense.
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| nixmap wrote: |
| rayscoops wrote: |
nixmap, count me in, but I may do a runner after the first five week days just before you arrive for the first weekend, and as we would have an unenforceable agreement (rather than a contract ) then thanks for the free holiday
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You might,
but once you get here, with the snow falling and empty slopes, and you work out that your staying in a really nice place, with freindly people, for very little.....
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For me these two posts sum up the whole debate. It's an informal arrangement allowing someone who values time in the alps ahead of money, to provide a service in exchange for somewhere nice to live. If they have some spare cash they can ski quite a bit for relatively little work, or if not they could get a bar job as well to earn a living while still skiing more than I will next season.
There are no manacles, power is balanced (nixmap is trusting some of his most valuable possessions to the good will of his 'serfs'). IMHO all the employment/tax/regulatory foldirol is irrelevant to the deal. I'm certain that I wouldn't let fear of possible tax repercussions (IF the authorities learned of it, and IF they cared enough to come after me, and IF they could prove their case) stop me going for it, and nor I believe would a great many others who would be more interested in powder days than tax returns.
Masque you raised some good points , in your own inimitable style, but I think you've lost this one. nixmap has shown himself in a good light , provided pages of entertainment and probably got himself the deal he was looking for - good luck to him. For me he hasn't done anything THAT terrible, and does not deserve the level of vitriol you are sending his way.
All IMHO of course, and WTF do I know?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Axsman, well said - exactly my view also.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Axsman, well said - exactly my view also. |
ditto
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| dz4d1v wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| Axsman, well said - exactly my view also. |
ditto |
I'm signing up for that too
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Axsman, dz4d1v, cathy, I guess I may have to retire as gracelessly as I can However I think a dangerous precedent has been established by the OP and I hope that he'll reconsider his methodology. He also needs to be aware that this dog's not dead, just sleeping.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Masque,
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Axsman wrote: |
| ........It's an informal arrangement allowing someone who values time in the alps ahead of money, to provide a service in exchange for somewhere nice to live....... |
Or it's an informal arrangement in order to avoid taxation, insurance, and the laws concerning ski instruction and the protection of children (for which it looks like Swiss law could be changing).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Or it's an informal arrangement in order to avoid taxation, insurance, and the laws concerning ski instruction and the protection of children
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achilles, Well done! 12 pages of argument about a job advert summed up in one line
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Careful everyone. He's a wizard.
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An informal arrangement or a badly formed contract of employment ? If it goes backside up (apartment burns down, child gets injured etc whilst the responsibility of the employee) the lack of formality will be most interesting. Whilst the legal stuff is bit of a laugh on here unless the rights and obligations are clearly defined it could all end up in tears.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My points have been made from a basis of "amateur" experience of owning an apartment in the Alps, doing some (black economy) cleaning at weekends for friends with apartments in the same development and 7 seasons of having our place often full of friends and relatives. Plus vicarious experience of having a son who has worked a couple of seasons in the Alps as a freelance cook. And professional experience not as a lawyer but as 5 years the administrative head of a Department dealing with all the pay and conditions for everyone working overseas for the British aid programme, whether employee, contractor, or various other peculiar categories which didn' comfortably fit into either definition.
Nixmap is misunderstanding - whether deliberately or not is hard to say - my argument. If someone has to "hang around" to do your bidding all day, even if in a quiet moment they can sit with their feet up and watch the TV, or potter round on skis for an hour before picking up the kids from ski school, then they're working. Any woman who has ever employed a regular cleaner knows they are likely to do less in an hour than you can yourself in that frenzied 15 minutes before your visitors arrive. And if they have used baby sitters in the evenings they'll be aware that they don't, when the kids are asleep, do the ironing, wash the kitchen floor and get a casserole started for the following day (as mothers do not just when "baby sitting" but when the little darlings are under their feet).
In a similar fashion he is playing fast and loose with discussion about renting out his apartment. Anyone doing short holiday lets is extremely lucky to get full occupancy, and also has to pay management fees, tax, etc etc. They rarely (and I know quite a few, and have also read a lot of Snowheads posts on the subject) make the kind of vast profits being postulated here.
Finally, he has resorted to the particular sin of quoting misleadingly out of context. That was either deceptive or careless.
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Axsman, Hurtle, dz4d1v, cathy, I can not resist, a personal failing.
Yes, nixmap, may well indeed 'win'/ have won in that someone will/has take(n) him up on his advertisement. I don't care either, as I feel no need to be my brother's keeper in all of this.
However, Nixxie's behaviour has only been that of any salesmen attempting to manage a commercial transaction. He has been polite and courteous, even disarming, but to have responded 'in kind' would have been to lose the argument. Selling via BBs is even more demanding as even the uncaring/uninvolved/ noise-buckets (me) will have a view. I'm sure Kiwi1, CEM, Rob@ etc. have wanted to dismiss some of our questions as 'effing BS' but you just cant do that professionally on a forum! A small qualification, I have never seen the OP post in any manner other than politely on other threads he has contributed to, so fair play.
I suspect Masque's objective was to highlight the potential pitfalls in this offer to others. It is a shame that not all all posters understand the background to his personal angst on these issues, it leaves them very much 'in the dark' which is irritating. Those of us who were 'around during that time' will understand why the Mods delete any references to the background and potentially libelous accusations.
There have been, and still are, many dissenters to nixmap,'s advertising ( that is Admin's call and not ours ) on a number of grounds e.g. social, legal (  ), fiscal and just that 'our' site should be used for these purposes. However in our usual fashion , our points made have been served up somewhat like pensioners playing tennis at Queens Club with Nixxie politely lobbing the ball back just that little bit higher to keep us amused . Masque, came in and started belting stuff around ( maybe a bit wildly but have you seen him ski?) but I suspect he will also think he's won as nixmap, hasnt actually answered objections and those questions will have to be then answered (privately) to any applicant who considers them valid questions.
I am now looking for a job in HR having declared them both winners.  We can always wait for a certain person to declare both the two and them and us 'Losers' of course.
All this thread is missing is Smokin Jo's official classification as 'Snowhead Gold'
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 12-08-09 9:54; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Agenterre, I don't think I've won anything, just hoping that some eyes have been opened to the pitfalls inherent in this sort of arrangement, they can damage both their health and their welfare and in this case 'could' end up with a criminal record . . . it could also go so smoothly that everyone has a great time and feels satisfied with the arrangement. But it's like playing 'spin the bottle' and finding yourself snogging a pre-op transgender. And that level of real and not speculative risk to the individual from another for commercial gain is not appropriate for this type of forum.
I hope that admin will have a quiet word and dissuade nixmap from repeating the advert.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
So I wonder what happens with things like home-exchange.com
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well that's a completely different thing, isn't it? It's no kind of working relationship. You live in my house for a while, I live in yours. But if you come and live in mine and have to be there when I ask, prepare my meals as requested, keep my house clean, tidy away after supper and baby sit when I pop down the pub for a drink, then you're an employee. |
It is a completely different thing, because it's EVERY kind of working relationship. Taxable income for both parties, based on market value.
OP's arrangement is utterly informal, and the value of the accommodation does not appear to be taxable on the victim.
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You know it makes sense.
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I've been emailed the gist of what was written on this forum about me and if anyone has a copy in cache please PM me, It seems that a line has been crossed and has been noticed by others. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Masque wrote: |
| ,....just hoping that some eyes have been opened to the pitfalls inherent in this sort of arrangement, they can damage both their health and their welfare and in this case 'could' end up with a criminal record . . . it could also go so smoothly that everyone has a great time and feels satisfied with the arrangement. But it's like playing 'spin the bottle' and finding yourself snogging a pre-op transgender...... |
I think that is a valid point and because nixmap has packaged it up as 'have a slide, knock up the odd meal, take the kids skiing etc' and stay in the gaff for free then it seems exactly the way Axsman, Hurtle, dz4d1v, cathy, have viewed it and how I initially viewed it. however it is just like nixmap getting on a builder's forum and saying 'stay for free in my Alps apartment' but you have to do some builders works on weekends, maybe put a kitchen in, or a bathroom, fix the roof perhaps, all for free too - but remember the skiing is great ..... of course when the bathroom floods the apartment or the builder falls off the roof it tends to get a bit messy.
In all of this each party needs to consider what the situation is in reality and think what might happen in a 'worst case scenario', and when (god forbid) a child is lying in hospital or the apartment is a burned out shell, then I doubt it would be simply a nice mutual agreement
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rayscoops, all the more so since nixmap did not just wrap it up as 'have a slide, knock up the odd meal, take the kids skiing etc' what he actually wrote was:
| nixmap wrote: |
........We would like to find a chalet helper/ chalet couple to look after it (and us) for the winter season............
What that means is you work on weekends............................
We would expect you to do regular household chores, cooking, cleaning, occasional child minding (ages 5 and 8 ) , ski teaching, and other helpful activities.........
Occasionally we may have house guests, and school holidays mean we would stay for longer periods which is an extra work load............ |
So, amongst all the waffle, quite a job specification. Bearing in mind the implications, I think that this thread should have been pulled.
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achilles, It's too late now and it should stay here as a reference should it or anything like it happen again. Admin might even like to examine the issues raised and ponder his own steps to clarify the options to us.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles, agreed, but hopefully there will be no problem and one party will get a season on the slopes in a nice gaff and the other will get some one to do some chores on the weekend, be great friends and all live happily ever after. The only reason I dipped my toe in here is because nearly every day I see parties to agreements falling out because the agreement had not been structured properly to deal with disputes when they arrise. This seems no different bearing in mind the way it is being packaged up and punted on here.
.... but if I could cook and ski (rather than board) I might well have taken up the offer
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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achilles, Agenterre, It's no wonder the world is going to the lawyers!
While those of us 50 and over will probably give some thought to all the 'what could go wrong' possibilities before doing anything, my guess is that many, somewhat younger folk, might just think WTF and do it anyway.
Life is risk, sliding down mountains is risk, staying in hotels is risk, paragliding is risk, body boarding is risk, sunbathing is risk etc etc etc. should we let worries over risk/insurance/regulation prevent us doing anything but sitting at home by the TV?
Trying to avoid having to jump through all the hoops and bureaucracy surrounding taxation (who doesn't relish beating the tax man?), insurance (what should be insured against what exactly?), ski instruction (a closed shop if ever there was one) and some not yet introduced, somewhat contraversial, and possibly unworkable rules on babysitting (they are talking about aunts and uncles needing to be 'scrutinised' by the state before being allowed to babysit FFS!) doesn't seem like the crime of the century to me.
IMHO it's up to nixmap to judge the suitability of candidates to look after his house and family, and up to the candidates to judge whether he's a scrooge or a pussycat.
Good luck to them all!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Axsman, that's enough common sense, thank you.
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laundryman, 
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FAQ
take on the situation and a line has been x'd. may even save me some money 
