Skills based has got to be the right way for "advanced" students. I'd define advanced as when they have got the basic hang of balance and an idea of how skiing works mechanically & ideally an idea of what good skiing looks like even if they can't execute it.
I was struck by the ESF training camps up on the GM the past couple of days & the way their style was definitely French but very effective and smooth on the hardpack.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
fatbob, I think skills based can be used at any level... However I think it's not always appropriate for some beginners when getting them moving around the mountain asap is the way to hold their interest and get them having fun. Once you've got them moving then you can start to do all the skills exercises easiski mentions above, which are the sort of things kids love.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
beanie1, You can do it all on the nursery slopes (assuming you have decent nursery slopes). I do traversing and edging to slow down and stop before sp turns.
beanie1, Not at all here - we're very lucky that we have more than 1Km of lifts and slopes right down at village level (+ 7 free lifts) - plenty of room in normal circs. However when I say pirouettes I mean turn up the hill ski backwards and finish your 180 by skiing off forwards (sort of a turn, but dead flash). Actually it's a bit unusual here and much more fun for youngsters down in the town where we have the bike park, lots of jumps, trees, streams etc and a general adventure playground. Just skiing round up the mountain is generally much less fun. Sadly lots of parents seem to think it's really important to get up the mountain asap - eerrrrrrrmmmmmmm.
easiski, sounds like a great learning environment. Unfortunately the beginner groups I've had this season have been on a small slope with one drag and about 10 other large groups jostling for the best terrain...
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
easiski,
Hi
I think it could be that people that train during the summer are those that are aiming for a higher standard as most of them have already passed through the learning phase and people in ski school during the winter tend to be learning to ski and will be happy with just that.
So its skills (training) in the summer and form (learning) in the winter
After all it is free
After all it is free
A very interesting thread. However, I'm not sure that I really understand what form based training is. Does it mean just "follow me/my style" or is there more to it than that? I can't imagine any instructors who only use a "follow me" approach but, if you're teaching a class of 12-14 students (of somewhat differing abilities), there is a limit to how many individual exercises can be repeated before boredom (or frostbite on occasions) sets in. In such situations, just building up miles on the snow in a "follow me" way may be a valid approach, for groups just beyond the basics. Perhaps not perfect but the best possible with restricted time and resources. Some students will no doubt benefit more than others under such circumstances. With more resources available, I expect everyone would benefit from skill based teaching.
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espri, I'd say I notice the difference more in stuff like MA... the form based teacher tells you how you 'look wrong' ie vary from their ideal image... the skills based will talk to you about how the movements you made/stance you used etc affected the performance of your skis... ie the skills guys are about outcome - having the skill set to get the desired outcomes is a big thing for these guys... while the form guys are much more worried about if you fit their particular mental image of "what looks good on skis"...
As an example... I did a ski camp in Utah one year... had lots of wishy feedback on how I 'looked ok' and needed more confidence, blah blah blah little real discussion about HOW I was skiing.... The next week I took a lesson at The canyons... the instructor turned and looked at me and said "Edges for you are like crack cocaine - you need to learn to skid" - funnily enough EasiskiFred(les deux alpes) and Fastman all came to EXACTLY the same conclusion and my instructors at home had been working on the same skill.... Once I got that skill honed up a bit my confidence naturally increased - it was a result of my brain understanding the limitations of my body movement ability...
Quite simply that was the weak link in my skill base... skills based folks all saw the same thing... It was a big hole I had (In my case for a quite good reason) that needed fixing... While form based guys will only come out with 'well you don't look bad but..' the but part varying depending on the 'look' their local style encompasses(or their personal preference)....
You will see it here where a poster will say 'I don't like how that skiing looks' with no ability to describe the function and no technical reason for disliking that 'look' just that it does not meet their 'ideal skier' image...
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Thanks, little tiger, that is another side that makes it easier to understand.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
espri, it's no problem at all doing exercises with a group of 12 (as soon as they're at the stage where they won't crash into each other that is!). There's no need for them to do it one by one and get cold and bored. Teacher describes drill and gives demo, class ski down one after other giving each other a bit of space. Teacher then gets feedback from class and gives tips and further explanation where needed, class tries drill again.
Of course 12 isn't ideal, but it can be done.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar, I wasn't trying to say that exercises are boring 'maths homework' as you put it and form based skiing great fun. I'd probably say that most lessons are a combination of both. I've been lucky to have some (in my opinion) great instructors who have combined both effortlessly and astutely. I was heading more towards why the impression mentioned in the OP was apparent. I'm sure only bad instructors would stick solely to one type of teaching. For me so far, I love the way the ESF teach. Not the lessons you get with a package but when you book privately in a group of 4-6 of you. They are great.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The other element to this is that as well as developing 'technical' skills and movement pattens, the development of the pupils 'internal feedback' skills is key for rapid progress, and gives the pupil much greater scope for improving during 'free' skiing away from the Instructor.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
MJS wrote:
I'd probably say that most lessons are a combination of both.
I think that's right. There is probably a spectrum of options with purely skills-based and one end and purely form-based at the other. For my own learning style something close to the form-based end of the spectrum would be less than helpful, and perhaps for some skiers a purely skills-based approach would not be appropriate because of the way they learn and what they want from their ski holidays.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
david@mediacopy wrote:
the development of the pupils 'internal feedback' skills is key for rapid progress
Yes, absolutely! But that hardly seems to get a mention. My Trainer for L2 really pushed me hard on using internal feedback and it was a revelation to me. My skiing made a step change because of it.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
david@mediacopy wrote:
the development of the pupils 'internal feedback' skills is key for rapid progress
Yes, absolutely! But that hardly seems to get a mention. My Trainer for L2 really pushed me hard on using internal feedback and it was a revelation to me. My skiing made a step change because of it.
However, surely that's a compelling argument for skills based teaching, as that is also a skill, and being told how to look and how to stand and how to be on skis is no preparation.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
easiski wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
david@mediacopy wrote:
the development of the pupils 'internal feedback' skills is key for rapid progress
Yes, absolutely! But that hardly seems to get a mention. My Trainer for L2 really pushed me hard on using internal feedback and it was a revelation to me. My skiing made a step change because of it.
However, surely that's a compelling argument for skills based teaching, as that is also a skill, and being told how to look and how to stand and how to be on skis is no preparation.
Yes agreed. But one of the harder skills to teach (and to learn)? I know it was something which wasn't any part of my skiing until fairly recently.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar, how did your trainer get you to use internal feedback, can you explain how it worked for you?
rob@rar, how did your trainer get you to use internal feedback, can you explain how it worked for you?
First step was for him to not give me any external feedback at all. I like a lot of feedback, so that took some getting used to. Second step was to ask me, in increasingly detailed terms, what happened on the last observed run. Answers such as "that felt good" or "I think my weight was a bit too far back" weren't good enough, so in order to answer the questions I had to 'tune in' to the internal feedback that was available to me. The kinds of things that I needed to describe was exactly when did pressure begin to build up in the turn, how did I manage that pressure, could I change the timing and extent of that pressure build up, how and when did I release that pressure, what was the range of my movement, what was the rate of my movement, etc, etc. These were all very tough questions for me, and took a lot of work to even begin to answer them. I really didn't get the point he was trying to drive me towards until the start of my 2nd week in the L2 course, but then I had a real light bulb moment and I felt as if my skiing changed significantly. I still don't have that feedback available to me on every run I take - just this morning in Hemel on some runs I felt I was really in tune with it and could make very fine adjustments to my skiing and it really flowed, but on other runs it felt like I was barely connected to my skis. Wish I could ski consistently with good internal feedback.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
easiski, rob@rar, Thinking about it, I'm not sure that it's a skill as such, more about developing awareness of what's going on. One thing is for sure, it's very hard to produce a 'skilful' performance if you don't have good internal feedback.
(Prior to this post I was hunting through my old John Shedden books looking for his definition of skill (didn't find the one I was looking for), and the "Developing your Skill " title has lots of useful insights on the subject. I must read them again along with my old CI & ASSI course notes !)
rob@rar, You can train yourself in your everyday life as well. Just 'tune in' when your're doing regular things like walking, climbing/descending stairs, sitting down/standing up, jumping small obstacles - all sorts. this will really help your awareness and make it much easier to feed back.
david@mediacopy, But developing awareness or having awareness is a skill that most people don't have, or not in large dollops anyway. I have 'Skilful Skiing' which is a great book - it's just a pity that virtually all of the techical content is now passé. John Sheddon was really quite revolutionary in his day.
beanie1, Sounds a difficult environment and not ideal. Necessity, however, is the mother of invention - have you thought of building a little jump for them to take in a plough/parallel exercise? Like plough to here, parallel, over jump, maybe duck under poles then plough again. The jumping would help to get them centred and they'd think it was major cool. All the others would be copying you in no time and you could share the 'course'.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
As a skier of relatively limited experience I'm not sure if I'm thinking along the right lines here but in my own case what I understand as 'internal feedback' has begun to be developed through what I have recognized as targetted questioning. After performing a particular move I have been asked by instructors to explain/describe what I have been doing and what I felt about it. This has made me reflect and become more aware of weight transfer, balance, speed, stance, what I felt did or didn't work and why. I have also been asked to identify aspects to work on. I find having a better understanding of what I am trying to do increases my confidence and gives me something to work with and evaluate my performance when skiing independently. In my opinion this relates very closely to the concept I mentioned earlier, of the learner beginning to take responsibility for or manage their own learning. This doesn't, of course, do away with the need for someone to lead the learning.
Just wanted to edit to say I've just seen the two or three posts above entered while I was composing mine and it is interesting to see some similarities.
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar, Iski, internal feedback from students is something try I bring in to my teaching right from an early stage, but in a very simple way. eg. Get group doing drill where they are hopping with the ski tips left on the snow, then repeat but with the tails left on the snow, then ask them where they felt their weight was for each of those drills. Progress to jumping the whole ski (where was your weight?), or you can do this part of the drill first (many skiers won't hop the whole ski but will leave either tips or tails, so you can do it at the end of the exercise too and see the improvement), and then hops where they're shifting between tips and tails on the snow with each jump. Very simple exercise, but gets them thinking about their fore / aft balance but also I emphasise to them that this is dynamic and not static.
I think my own style of teaching really developed this season (done a lot more close together than in previous seasons), and I've found that asking them loads of questions and drawing what you want to say from them really works for me. With teenagers it helps keep them engaged too.
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beanie1, Rather than asking them where their weigtht was, you could try asking them what they noticed and felt in general terms - the weight thing will come out anyway, but you don't put the idea in their head about what you expect them to feel. This varied hopping is also a very good exercise for getting the ankles to work. Ask them to land quietly.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
easiski, thanks, will try that next time.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I don't know whether it was true internal feedback as described above, but there were times on holiday this year when I paused after a section and did the 'that felt dammed good' thing in my mind, as well as thinking this I think I was conscious of why it felt it good. However, and I don't know how it relates to this skills vs. form thing, but I think I am aware of what I am trying to achieve and the harder I think about doing it the more rigid and inflexible I get - I think the about the aspect I want to get right, i.e. shoulders, and X,Y and Z go to pot. However, if I am distracted and not thinking about 'me on skis' all of a sudden it comes right and feels GOOD!! Occasions when this happened this year was when I was in busy areas and having to concentrate on where the other skiers were, when I was watching out for my kids, surprisingly when I was shooshing down my blue just before I fell flat on my face and bent my ankle but the time it really felt good was when we were chasing Flowa down the slopes on the first EoSB morning in VT. We started to really go fast and suddenly it all came together - don't ask me why, but I don't think skill or form based teaching came into it
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Megamum, "ski with a quiet mind".
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Megamum, this is the difference between being in the "practice" phase of learning (when you have to think about what you're doing) and the "acquired" phase which is when it's sub-concious.
Try reading a book called "Inner Skiing" by Gallwey.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Megamum wrote:
I think I am aware of what I am trying to achieve and the harder I think about doing it the more rigid and inflexible I get - I think the about the aspect I want to get right, i.e. shoulders, and X,Y and Z go to pot. However, if I am distracted and not thinking about 'me on skis' all of a sudden it comes right and feels GOOD!!
That thinking about being in the right position etc is form based learning - trying to conform to an ideal. You clearly have some skills because when you're not thinking about the form stuff they come to the fore. Really, skill based teaching is all about giving you those skills you may need as individual elements, which will then integrate into your natural skiing.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
easiski,
Quote:
That thinking about being in the right position etc is form based learning - trying to conform to an ideal. You clearly have some skills because when you're not thinking about the form stuff they come to the fore. Really, skill based teaching is all about giving you those skills you may need as individual elements, which will then integrate into your natural skiing.
That explanation based on my own experience makes this thread more understandable - thanks. When you talk about 'skills' are you talking about skills that can be taught or developing underlying 'latent' ability (from reading about your teaching approach I tend to think you are edging towards the latter).
Something that I've been wondering, as I want to become a good skier, is can the skills required for skiing be purely learnt or does it require some of that underlying latent ability mentioned above and if so does everyone have something they can build on?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
does it require some of that underlying latent ability mentioned above and if so does everyone have something they can build on?
from my observation of skilled athletes learning to ski I'd say that the latent ability has a large amount to do with it (and it's discouraging for the rest of us) but we can all build on what we've got. What easiski said above about practising internal feedback in every day life is so true - as I was reading it I became aware that my shoulders were being held a good inch or two higher than they needed to be - as they are when I type if I'm not careful.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
As someone with as close to no latent ability as you are likely to see....
Yes the skills can all be learnt.... I spent 2 years trying to learn to flex an ankle (just don't ask it was damn near impossible for me to do)....
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum, Everyone has some latent ability, but some have more than others. The point is to use what you know (horse riding in your case) and use that muscle memory and 'headset' to improve your skiing skills. However lots of very good skiers have 'learnt' to ski, so it is possible. little tiger, is a case in point, I know some do not believe it, but she really has almost no body awareness and does have to learn how to do each small movement along the way (such as flattening and edging the skis - ankle roll), her balance is totally rubbish too - so yes - look at the vid and aspire!
rob@rar, wrote "ski with a quiet mind"
pam w, wrote "I became aware that my shoulders were being held a good inch or two higher than they needed to be"
I think both these comments demonstrate the fact that many of us have so much going on in our lives that we rarely allow ourselves to 'be absorbed in the present' and our bodies reflect this conflict. Perhaps that is why young children often seem to take to activities such as skiing comparatively easily, because by nature they become totally absorbed in whatever has taken their interest. Also, because they are still at the stage of developing everyday physical skills their minds are already switched on to the 'internal feedback'.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
easiski wrote:
............ little tiger, is a case in point, I know some do not believe it, but she really has almost no body awareness and does have to learn how to do each small movement along the way (such as flattening and edging the skis - ankle roll), her balance is totally rubbish too - so yes - look at the vid and aspire!
That is really encouraging to me.
I had an interesting developmental moment right at the end of my trip to LDA. For the first time the skis really became an extension of my body and my focus wasn't on how to use them, how to balance etc, my focus was on getting from A to B in a reasonable time. Having done the journey it dawned on me that I'd covered ground that earlier in the trip had been a challenge to me. I think this was a very useful experience analagous to learning to drive, when you stop thinking how to drive and focus on where you and the car, as one entity, are going.
I know that's not entirely relevant to skills -v- form based learning, but I think it represents a stage that is important in learning which probably makes the "internal feedback" discussed earlier easier to experience. Experiencing what it feels like to "get it right" is very important. Ideally an instructor will use both form and skills based teaching at points appropriate to each learner - not easy if you have very large groups. For someone like me I think that skills-based is the better starting point because through that sufficient confidence and control can be achieved. Without it form-based learning can be detrimental. Given an appropriate confidence/control level, it is then useful to watch model demonstrations and mentally rehearse how it might feel if I did it and only then to try and emulate it. When at an early stage I was told simply to "follow me" I was filled with panic and learned nothing but fear of the slope.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Butterfly, I'd not say much of my teaching was 'form based' (once we got past the Candian bob issue).... In general I selected instructors whose teaching style worked for me.... With better understanding and a lot of hindsight I'd say I selected more skills based teachers without realising that was what I was doing...
I spent plenty of time doing 'follow me' and figure eighting my instructor's turns.... but this was to teach me skills - not to make me look like a particular image... In fact I remember being told that I would (they hoped) develop my own style... One of my instructors happily pointed out the different build and skiing styles of my instructors at the time... with a foot less height and a lot less weight I was hoping NOT to end up looking like my main instructor!!! It was made quite clear to me that they wanted me to develop a bunch of skills that I would end up putting together in my own unique manner...
Developing a bunch of skills takes time and effort... but ultimately lets you blend lots of pieces...
I'd say the internal feedback is a part of the skills development... but maybe that is unique to me as I needed to develop a feedback system to help me control my movements. Developing awareness was part and parcel of developing the skills... in order to perform skills my awareness of necessity improved...
After all it is free
After all it is free
Ya know, I hadn't thought to post it before, but this video is a good example of skills based teaching.
All the different turn types you see in this video are the product of a broad quiver of edging skills that Little Tiger has worked very hard to develop. When we filmed this Janis did each one of these on her first attempt. I told her EXACTLY what type of turn and transition I wanted her to do, and she did it no sweat. In this video you see various types of steered turns, from very narrow, fast and refined (called narrow track steering),,, to very skiddy and slow (called wide track steering). She shows clean transitions, with absolutely no tail tossing pivot, and she also does transitions in which she pivots massively. Then she eliminates steering completely and carve super clean arc to arc turns.
That's the thing about skills based learning. Because she's learned through many fine skills based teachers, Little Tiger has all these turning options at her disposal. If she gets on a steep slope and wants to tone things down and ski it comfortably she can increase her skid angle and ski it at a very relaxing speed. If she's in the mood to charge down it she can tip up onto a clean edge and rip.
The video only deals with skills in the edging department, but the same versatility benefits apply to each skill area; balance, rotation, flexion/extension, angulation, transitions. As you build your skills in these areas, skiing gets so comfortable,,, confidence soars. Forms? With these skills, displaying any "form" is cake. It's all a matter of simply blending your skills in the manner the "form" calls for. Without the skills, trying to display a particular "form" can be a frustrating endeavor. After all, what are "forms" but the execution of a specific mix of skills.
Do I need to possess innate athletic abilities to develop this "skills" stuff? Very little. During my years of coaching I've taken some very athletic ability deprived people to a very high level of skiing. I've coached hundreds and hundreds of people, of all variety of innate athletic abilities. Not one of those who spent the time was unable to develop these skills. Of course the degree of refinement will of course vary person to person. Innate abilities do have an influence. But even the most non-athletic of my long term students was able to elvate their skills and their overall skiing prowess to levels only a scant few skiers every come to realize. Perhaps less than 1 percent. That's right, anyone reading this post,,, anyone in this thread,,, can elevate their skiing to the top 1 percent of the sport if they have the desire, the time, the knowledge of how to use the skills based learning methodology.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Thanks for the linkFastMan. Such a clear demonstration.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I do traversing and edging to slow down and stop before sp turns.
Actually it's a bit unusual here and much more fun for youngsters down in the town where we have the bike park, lots of jumps, trees, streams etc and a general adventure playground. Just skiing round up the mountain is generally much less fun. Sadly lots of parents seem to think it's 
but the time it really felt good was when we were chasing 
