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Any serious cross country skier in Snowheads?

 Poster: A snowHead
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Been viewing a BBC news clip of the Engadine cross country skiing by 12,000 participants in a 42km marathon including over the fozen lake of St Moritz. BBC was interviewing one of the Participants who is the famous Architect Norman Forster.

Wonder how many snowheads interested in this kind of skiing that does not require mechanical lifts.

42km skiing without using a chairlift is pretty tough!
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saikee, I can cross country ski from my front door and do so when the trails are prepared as I'm rubbish at it. I use it as a fitness training as it is not as easy as letting gravity and lifts do all the hard work. I feel very very wobbly on those skinny skis with no edges and a heel that lifts free from the binding. Knees are too messed up to try telemark style but the work out is good and the peace and quiet is really enjoyable. I am still restricted to flat trails as I am so rubbish but I really enjoy it.

Sue wink

Samerberg is a cross country area by the way! I have to drive to do alpine/downhill skiing, but not as far as most Snowheads Laughing
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I'm not sure what qualifies as serious, but I enjoy cross country skiing and do it nearly as much as downhill. There's great cross country skiing within a few hours of Berlin, while the downhill skiing isn't worth the effort.
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Actually, 42km on cross country skis aren't neccessarily the extreme difficulty of, say, the RUNNING of a marathon. I'm not myself that "serious" a x-c skier (less than 10 days a season) but I routinely do 20-30km on skis on a typical day out (and still have energy left in the evening to dance Smile ). So I'm sure I can do 42km in a pinch, provided the terrain isn't too hilly. Though I'm by no means fast. So I would never dream of racing. I would NEVER, ever dream of RUNNING a full marathon without "serious" training, on the other hand.

Granted, it depends HUGELY on what sort of terrain the course are on. If there're many long and steep hills, even 20km can turn into a death march! Sad Also, apart from the difficulty of climbing up steep hills. I fount extended stretch of flat terrain not only boring but also slow'ish on average. For one can't take advantage of the downhill to rest.

So the most enjoyable terrain for extended touring on x-c skis are rolling terrain, like often found at the foot of big hills. By routing the track up and down the side of the hills, good x-c networks allow skiers to easily cruise a long distance, even from one village to the next, taking in nice vistas without too much effort.
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Well, since we're on the subject of cross-country skiing and St Moritz. Anyone been to the network there (or Laax/Flims since I haven't decide between that and St. Moritz) and have recommendation of which section to recommend? I will be going end of March.
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abc,

When I stayed in Pontresina near St Moritz I was surprised to see so many cross country skiers there. It gave the feeling that the downhill skiers were a minority there. I didn't see many cross country skiers in Flims/Laax/Falera though.
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saikee wrote:
abc,

When I stayed in Pontresina near St Moritz I was surprised to see so many cross country skiers there. It gave the feeling that the downhill skiers were a minority there. I didn't see many cross country skiers in Flims/Laax/Falera though.

According to the one guide book I have, Flams/Laax also have fairly extensive x-c ski track network. I hope end_ch might chime in since she ski there a lot.

I've only got one week. and I will be mixing a bit of both downhill and x-c. (http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=49846) So I won't have that much time devoted to x-c. I don't need a hugely extensive network, 2-3 days worth would suffice.

I'm well aware of Pontresina as the "meca" of x-c skiing! In fact, the group I occasionally x-c ski with does a trip there once every few years. But their timing never worked out for me so far. And it seems there're also plenty of good downhill skiing too, probably at St Moritz itself. With merely one week, I might not be able to fully enjoy both in such a short time.
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Last day we were in Canazei in January was the day of the Marcia Longa (http://www.marcialonga.it/mlff/XC/10/7/), a 75km XC race up and then back down the Val di Fassa. We stayed and watched them for a while, and they just kept coming! There were about 6000 entries this year, the winning time being marginally under three hours.

I also have a good friend who is heavily into XC: sends most of the winter in Scandanavia or Germany, but she's not a snowHead
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abc, I haven't been to either resort, although we nearly booked Flims/Laax for this past Christmas. As my girlfriend does not downhill ski, we always look for places with both good cross country and downhill. The trails in Flims/Laax looked good, but maybe somewhat disjointed. Not really a large network so much as a number of trail here and there. I beleive one area is over 1500 m, which is always a plus. I suspect that for 2-3 days it would be more than you need.

Let me turn the question around. We're thinking of coming to N.A. for two weeks next winter. Where would you recommend for both downhill and cross country? Tahoe seems the obvious choice, but I'm trying to gather all the possibilities. Just to be clear, 10 km of trails attachted to a downhill resort is not adaquate, and neither is a few km here and a few km there spread out over a large area.
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ami in berlin, When I was in Crested Butte Colorado I noticed signs referring to the Nordic Ski Centre there. From the link the X-Country seems quite extensive (more than 50km of groomed trails). The alpine skiing at Crested Butte is pretty good too!

If you were considering Canada as well, I know Mont Tremblant in Quebec also has extensive X-Country skiing.
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First off, you're WAY better off going to Canada! Banff/Lake Louise area come to the top of my head.

That said, Tahoe is one good area. Oddly enough, I've never skied there. But the possibility is endless. There're prepared tracks in Royel Gorge, where they even have a lift to take you up the mountain so you get some "extra" downhill in at the end! Another very attractive option is a stay overnight at a cabin on the Flume Trail, which goes along a section of the ridge on the east rim of Lake Tahoe. But the track is only prepared partway. To venture further, you need to be reasonably sure of your stamina and technique.

Jackson Hole is another good location. Though a lot of it are back country (skier packed) trails. It suffers the same problem you suspect of Laax/Flims. Many of the prepared track "network" are like, only 20km total, although some connects to bc trails you can venture out to. But the scenary more than make up for it. (I've been lazy. I'll upload some photo for that trip when I get some time). With 2 weeks, you can also venture into Yellowstone, which has quite a bit of trails. But again, back country style trails.

And I bet the Salt Lake City and Park City area has decent sized networks. After all, they hosted the winter Olympics there. There's got to be at least a minimum of 100km or so just for the game!

x-c skiing is really a rather marginal "fringe sport" in the US. There're tons of terrain but not enough demand for commercial operation. So majority of the trails are managed by local or federal goverment such as the city council, state park or the forest service etc. So it ranges from "occasionally groomed" by machine to skier groomed bc tracks. Canada is much more into it! (for example, there're big network of tracks IN the city of Toronto, Ottawa or in the Laurentiens outside of Montreal, etc)

The northeast of US (Vermont/NH/Maine & upstate NY) actually has a lot of touring center with miles and miles of meticulasly prepared tracks. Lake Placid is my personal favorate. But, you're at the mercy of the weather (it can rain, or icy). And the downhill skiing, well, not the best.

You'll need a car for the mudane task of going between the downhill base station and the x-c touring center.
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Also in Canada, Silver Star (have I mentioned the place before?) ajoins Soveriegn Lakes, and between them boast over 100km of trails. It's the only place in North America to ever have hosted FIS World Cup nordic events (in 2005).
Most of the lifts in Silver Star are also open to XC skiers to reduce the effort in getting to the top.

www.silverstar.com
www.sovereignlake.com
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saikee, I used to be a bit serious. I am an old crock now. All the ones who are not crocks tend to be out doing stuff not sitting by computers, as it attracts the hyperactive. So you may not find many here! And this group is a bit downhill-orientated. That said, we all like the white stuff.

ami in berlin, You could try asking on this forum: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.skiing.nordic/topics?hl=en&gvc=2

It is a bit quiet these days, but most of the posters are North American so may be able to make some suggestions.
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abc wrote:
.... but I routinely do 20-30km on skis on a typical day out (and still have energy left in the evening to dance Smile .....


On the tables, to ABBA I trust Madeye-Smiley Laughing
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As Tahoe has been mentioned, Kirkwood grooms upto 75km of XC track each night and it's groomed with two traditional track lanes, a skating lane and a snow shoe lane.
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Axsman wrote:
abc wrote:
.... but I routinely do 20-30km on skis on a typical day out (and still have energy left in the evening to dance Smile .....


On the tables, to ABBA I trust Madeye-Smiley Laughing

I maybe a "semi-serious" x-c skier, I haven't gone all out nordic!

The lack of sunlight in the winter doesn't really appeal...Sad
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ABC, go in spring then wink. Soon it will be lighter "up north" than "down south". There's normally skiing there 'till April/May, well after the equinox.
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Going to St Moritz end of March instead. Smile (http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=49846)

Anyone been and have recommendation?
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abc,

I was quite impressed by St Moritz but I only did the downhill bit. Like I mentioned before Pontresina seemed to be the place for XC. We stayed at the Station hotel whose car park behind was the meeting point of the XC folks.

For the downhill skiing I shall answer your other thread.
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abc, sounds nice Smile. I'd love to go there but I worry that much of the terrain might be too steep for Mrs Peura. Wouldn't dream of try to persuade someone from going to Lapland rather than St Moritz snowHead. I just felt the need to reply to the comment on the lack of daylight in the north. I'll make no promises about sun Wink, I believe St Moritz sees more sun (ie clear skies) than many ski resorts.
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I'm a regular xc skier - do most of my xc skiing on rollerskis though, but get out as often as I can on snow here in Scotland and have often managed a 10-15km ski in the evening afterwork. Skiing 42km is not particularly hard, I'd have no problem skiing 42km as a days xc skiing depending on the profile - doing it in a race and staying within the time limits might be a problem though without a bit of training beforehand. Personally I find skiing much easier than running - there is no way I'd want or be able to run a marathon for example, yet I expect to be doing a few rollerski races this year of up to 30km distance and I'd hope to keep the time under 2hrs for 30km of classic. Last year I did a 1hr skate race on a flat course and managed 14 miles in the hr and that put me near the back of the field, with the winning distance coming in at over 20miles .
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I do xc-skiing occasionally on prepared tracks (only once so far this season and never for great distances, so I can hardly be called serious), usually with a friend who doesn't do downhill. It can be very beautiful on a fine day. But I do also find it more difficult than the downhill I am more used to.
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We do some xc-skiing as well as downhill. Don't think you could call us serious at either Laughing, although we enjoy them both. Last holiday we managed to do 15km xc without any real preparation (not at the sort of speed Dave Horsley mentions though). I'd expect with a little more practice (we've probably spent less than a week xc-skiing in total) we'd be able to do twice that, although the terrain was fairly flat where we were. For me, the difficulty (other than fitness Blush ) is that of doing downhill when you're in less control of your speed and course due to having the skies in the tracks. We're learning though Cool .
Dave Horsley, how much difference in speed is there between snow and roller?
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To be honest, Engadin marathon is pretty easy one. Most of World Loppet series marathons are not really all that hard. They are quite flat, so for me personally, normal 10 or 15km races were much harder then any of these marathons. I did Engadin, Marcialong, Koenig Ludwig lauf and Dolomiten lauf, but was otherwise in "normal" xc skiing for about 20 years (national team, european cup races etc.).
With Engadin you have also another advantage, that start is higher then finish, so in average, it's going down, not much but still. From these marathons Marcialonga is hardest one for me, but even this just because of last 5km, when it goes quite steep up. Especially considering you have about 65km of skiing before that last uphill Smile
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Quote:

how much difference in speed is there between snow and roller?

That depends.
If I'm doing classic then I find rollers quicker. You get a lot more glide, and a lot more kick - you never have wax problems on rollers Wink. On a flat course on classic rollers for a reasonably fit skier it would be a double pole race and not really worth doing. The classic races we (Huntly NSC) run tend to be hill races. The classic races at Durham are on a track with one steep uphill, but even fat unfit me can double pole - kick up it for the first 4-5 laps before I get knackered and to do alternate stride. Some of our juniors (now racing on the world cup) can double pole the whole course. So classic is faster and easier on rollers than on snow and can be bad for technique as you can kick a lot further back on rollers than you can on waxed skis.

If I'm skating on rollers I personally find it easier, faster and a lot less like hard work than skating on snow, even on my slow training rollers. My race rollers are an order of magnitude faster and easier work (though they are also an order of magnitude easier to take a high speed fall from and fast downhills are very scary). However our juniors (mentioned above) reckon they get about the same amount of glide on snow as they do on their race rollers, but thats probably because their technique is a lot better than mine.

Having a look at some of Andrew Musgraves times in recent world cups he was doing around 2 minutes 30 secs/km on snow and looking at some sprint times on rollers on fast skis and a flat course that he did last season he was managing 1min 40 secs /km so fast rollers look a fair bit faster than skis on snow (both were skating).

For comparison I've just looked up some of my times from last season on rollers, classic in a 15km race I averaged 3mins 48 secs/km and in a skate race that was, for me, 21kms long I averaged 3min 11 secs/km (though it was very windy). The skate race was on the same track that Mussy managed to average 1min 40 secs /km doing a one lap sprint. But I'm a fat unfit 40 year old and Mussy is an 18 year old world cup skier so such a big difference is only to be expected Very Happy
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primoz wrote:
With Engadin you have also another advantage, that start is higher then finish, so in average, it's going down, not much but still. Smile

Now, how can I do the same but without doing the full Marathon loop? I mean, put togather a couple of loops that starts high and end low (bus/train assisted, I assume?)

Going there in 2 weeks Smile (http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=49846)
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Thanks for the tips regarding locations in NA. I'll have to do some thinking about it and ask my gf if she wants to stay in one place (thinking Truckee/Tahoe at the moment) or road trip out of Seattle (after visiting family).
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Abc Engadin marathon is not loop. It starts in Maloja, passes St. Moritz and has finish in S-chanf. To be honest, I have no idea how rest of people do this, but I'm pretty sure there are busses organized to drive you to start. We had van at that time, so we didn't need to worry about going to start and coming back from finish line. But normally there's transportation organized on all this marathons. If I remember right, only Koenig Ludwig lauf and Dolomiten lauf are loop, everything else has start and finish on different places.
But it's 10 years since I'm out of competitions, so thing could be different nowadays Smile
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You know it makes sense.
XC skiing is absolutely rubbish.
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primoz wrote:
Abc Engadin marathon is not loop.

Right! What was I thinking? For it to be higher, the start can't possibly be the same as the end! So it can't possibly be a "loop". Embarassed

Actually, that's what I WAS thinking, without realizing it. With good understanding of the bus/train route, there's possibility to get to a higher starting point by bus/train. Then ski to an end point at a low station/stop. Take the train back to the hotel...
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abc,

Thats often a possibility at a lot of xc resorts - I went xc skiing in Susjoen a few years ago and we skiied to Lillehammer, then caught the bus back. It was a very nice ski, generally downhill with some nice easy flats seperated by steeper sections.
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abc, When in Ramsau a few years ago, I was puzzled by the trail map as a lot of the routes seemed to be from place to place rather than loops. And they often started well away from villages. Then I realised they always started from a bus stop. And the bus stop was always by a pub. It's not the sort of ski-ing I grew up with, but it does have its attractions. I think the same arrangement happens in a lot of the alpine resorts with good trail networks. I am not talking about the resorts where the only XC is a 5k loop round a flat valley.

Whitegold, I am surprised you think poorly of XC. When skiing in Norway, out in the wilds, you might see a troll, but only if you are unlucky wink
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nordicfan,

I think your reaction to Whitegold's remark is fairly typical of XC skiers who are grow-ups and are able to meet the physical challenge of a sport head on. My Norwegian friends told me as kids their way of going out to play with others was to grab a pair of XC skis. It is a way of life for many who live in cold climate.
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I learn to ski at a rather flat place. So for a long time, I considered downhill skiing being absolute rubbish and only for losers! rolling eyes

Now that I live in an area that has both, I enjoy them both.
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I once saw a young female XC skier towing a bucket with her daughter sitting inside. That is what I call a real sport as all the motions are self propelled. Naturally I could even catch up with her.
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Thanks Dave Horsley. Although I think the fat unfit part is relative wink . Downhills sound rather scary on rollers Skullie . I think I'll try this "nordic walking" though to help get fitter for more xc next year. Not looking to race just make it easier to go of the xc skiing equivalent of an amble Little Angel.

I was impressed by the skiing skills of an xc skier skating up (and across) one of the easier pistes on our last holiday Laughing . Not so sure about his(?) sense though Confused it might given some of the beginners as nasty shock if the slopes were busier.
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peura,

A lot of the World Cup xc teams can be found training on glaciers over the summer - some of our skiers spent sometime this Autumn at one of the ski tunnels (Fortum Ski tunnel in Torsby) to get some on snow training prior to the season start.

Quote:

Not looking to race just make it easier to go of the xc skiing equivalent of an amble


I did that last night - spent a nice couple of hours doing some easy skiing along the beach boulavard at Aberdeen with a couple of our clubs beginners, probably did about 10km in all at no great pace. Though it started getting busy at about the time we were leaving - some local sports team losing to Dunfermline Toofy Grin .
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peura, I found learning to x-c ski properly helps alpine skiing considerably. Shocked

Once, I took a friend, who's been downhill skiing from a very early age, to x-c ski. He took no time to manage great glide on x-c skis and have fantastic control on downhills. He was able to skate along at quite impressive speed, which, despite a few lessons, I was still unable to manage. Sad Watching him , it was suddenly very clear to me, he's perfectly balance on the very skinny and flappy skis.

Some of the typical problem beginer x-c skier have are related to poor balance on ski, which also affects downhill skiing, though only shows up on more difficult terrain. The stiff downhill boots and wide skis "mask" the poor balance on easier slopes. So people can muscle the stiff downhill skis but not the flappy x-c skis.

I look at x-c ski much the same way I look at skiing mogul: "it's not that you don't know how to ski bumps. It's you don't know how to ski, and the bumps tell you so" Wink (substitute "bumps" by "x-c", everything still applies). Though in the case of x-c skiing, the deficiency are due less with "technique" but mostly with balance.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Thu 19-03-09 16:23; edited 1 time in total
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Skied some XC as a kid, but that was in the days when you only had classic and you just do that now funny looking shuffle along the tracks.. Love to give it another go now..nearly did last trip as the tourist office were doing a free taster.
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abc wrote:
peura, I found learning to x-c ski properly helps alpine skiing considerably. Shocked
From the example you give it sounds like the opposite is also true Wink. It is interesting how slopes that I wouldn't give a thought to on DH skis become a scary on skinny skis and I feel (but not having plucked up the courage to try yet Embarassed) daunting on rollerskis. I guess you're right but I suppose there are some new techniques (or variations of old ones) in there, "half snowploughs" for one. Trying telemark skis this year provided an interesting part way house between xc and "fixed heel" DH (not that I managed many of the elegant telemark turns Embarassed). Haven't tried the skating style yet, although I can ice skate (albeit in a rough & ready fashion).
abc, I'd be interested to read what you think of the xc trails (esp the easy ones snowHead) in St Moritz.
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