 Poster: A snowHead
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Does anyone know if there is a correlation between BARTS points gained in snowdomes or dryslope races and what would be the equivalent for on mountain races?
Just curious if there are any rules of thumb, or, broad comparisons between BARTS and FIS points, doesnt have to be exact.
Do people generally migrate from Artificial to BASS points and then onto FIS? again any correlation between BASS and BARTS points?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The BARTS and BASS points lists are totally separate, and points from one can not be used on the other. You can be on either list or both. There is a push by some to get indoor snow races to have BASS points rather than BARTS, but it does not look likely to get far as the indoor races are too short for FIS homologation.
There is often a progression, but some racers never race on dry slopes or race first on snow then dry so no rigid rule.
FIS points are only acquired in FIS races, into which you may be accepted if your BASS points are low enough e.g. National Championships, whereas other races carry BASS points only.
The BASS and BARTS points lists can be found on gbski http://www.gbski.com and a comparison can be gained for racers who compete indoor and outdoor. Choosing two age group champions at random, neither of them known to me personally.
BASS..........................................................Slalom....GS........SG.......DH......FIS No.
10659 RYDING, David.......M 1986 K PND.........15.27....24.56....41.33..44.95...220689
14297 MOSS, Maximillian..M 1996 AMB BGR....208.62..182.03..294.78
BARTS
10659 RYDING, David......M 1986 PND K.............4.47
14297 MOSS, Maximillian..M 1996 BGR AMB.....117.31
It may look as if slalom BASS points are about twice BARTS points, but this is probably chance as the best children racer is given a BASS score of 150 each year and the junior racers are then scaled against him /her whereas the BARTS list is a single list.
FIS points are a different game altogether - no idea how they compare.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, beequin pretty much covered it - although in the last few seasons some racers who have only raced on snow have had BASS points converted to BARTS points in order to allow them entry into indoor championship races as these popped up on the SSE calendar. Can't remember how they do it tho, and it definitely doesn't go the other way so have to start from scratch if moving onto snow from plastic/snowdome for the first time. Then when you get good enough and get FIS registered you have to start from scratch again for those.
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beequin, thanks for that, what was i thinking that there would be a simple correlation in the various systems.  I am pretty good at maths but all the various race rules just confuse the heck out of me.... good idea to just look at some sample racers who compete on both "circuits"
seems to me that FIS and BASS are broadly similar for the older athletes, obviously depends on race results but I had a look at a few on both lists and they seem to have roughly similar points. ( Pam thorburn for instance 40 BASS and 44 FIS for SL and 38 & 38 for GS) and Dave Ryding 14 and 23 FIS 15 and 25 BASS
trying to compare BARTS doesnt seem to make much sense and as you say the kids get a 150 loading...
vivski, With the Indoor series this summer i was curious to see if BARTS points scored could be translated coarsely into what you could then expect from people who go onto competing in the mountains....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, Below the top racers who are setting the BARTS penalties you can probably add 100 to BARTS to get FIS.
You can assume that BASS and FIS will be the same, there are so few BASS races held now that anyone older than children will have FIS points. If the BASS result has 'F' against it then this will have come from the FIS list. FIS lists are published more often than BASS, so the BASS results may lag a bit.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rjs, thanks that is helpful, we have a few from Xscape at Manchester this weekend and after being at the British i was curious to see how those who couldnt get out to Meribel would have faired against those who had competed at the National Champs.
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| beequin wrote: |
| There is a push by some to get indoor snow races to have BASS points rather than BARTS, but it does not look likely to get far as the indoor races are too short for FIS homologation. |
BASS points will be used to seed some races. Dry slopes are dead, people just need to move on.
One problem with BARTS is that there are a fair number of racers from Lions and Xscape Race Team (MK) who haven't raced on dryslopes since the indoor ones opened. Their BARTS points have been loaded by 20% each year since then but they can't get a conversion from BASS/FIS as they technically still have BARTS points.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rjs, thanks that is helpful, we have a few from Xscape at Manchester this weekend and after being at the British i was curious to see how those who couldnt get out to Meribel would have faired against those who had competed at the National Champs. |
I think you would need to make comparisons with individual racers rather than read anything into the overall result. For males compare with Jai Geyer and Callum Henderson, for the females there are several on similar FIS points in the mid 100s even if their BARTS points are quite different.
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rjs, Crikey, looking at the British Grand Prix series you linked to shows another Seed List called BISS British Indoors Seed List.
Should I assume BASS and BISS points are (somewhat) interchangable, but obviously just based on results from the Indoor series 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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vivski, The races that matter will be the MK and Hemel Club Nationals, if they are as oversubscribed as MK was last year then they won't get a representative penalty. I can't afford to train at Chill Factore either, but the number of dryslopes suitable for racing is falling each year.
The fact that you have different points for dryslopes and indoor just points out that the surfaces are not the same.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, All the lists are calculated in the same way.
The plan was to use BASS for the indoor series this season, I haven't been to Castleford since getting back from Meribel though so don't know what was decided.
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rjs,
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| Dry slopes are dead |
Best you tell that to the competitors in the 50 odd races around the country this summer.  Asvivski, said, cost comes into it.
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You know it makes sense.
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rjs, There is no Hemel indoor CN this year though it does have a GP and the English Nationals, and there may be two races on the British Indoor GP series (?).
We went to the MK CN last year and the field was limited such that boys with less than 130 points were excluded. The penalties were high due to several Indoor-based racers entering with very high BARTS points (eg four of the first five who started with about 500).
I have to agree with vivski, that dry slope racing will have its place for some time yet. There are not enough indoor slopes to cater for demand and dry slope training costs just £6 to £10 per session (plus petrol - what would be the cost of training and petrol to Hemel twice a week?).
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 20-04-09 14:55; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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beequin, not sure what hemel will charge but 2 hour sessions at MK are £20 including coaching and slope time (and rental if you need skis). you also have a £50 annual membership fee on top of that.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rjs wrote: |
| The fact that you have different points for dryslopes and indoor just points out that the surfaces are not the same. |
I know, that was my point and the surfaces are obviously different - personally I think if I could train on indoor as regularly as I do on plastic I could probably get down to similar points once I got used to the different surface.. who knows, maybe after the wedding with more disposable income I will try to test that theory 
Telford CN at CFe this weekend shouldn't have too awful a penalty tho- wasn't oversubscribed like the MK one was so I will be interested to see how it goes - partly depends as well on the issue beequin metioned as well with the people with artificially high BARTS points for the reasons you mentioned earlier.
Personally I am interested to see how the seeding shakes out as more indoor races come onto the SSE calendar and count for BARTS points - I guess that the results should give a clearer indication of how well, if at all, BARTS will work for the indoor races once people who previously just had the escalating BARTS points from switching to indoors and stoping plastic racing get back into the circuit at these races.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| beequin wrote: |
| We went to the MK CN last year and the field was limited such that boys with less than 130 points were excluded. The penalties were high due to several Indoor-based racers entering with very high BARTS points (eg four of the first five who started with about 500). |
Maybe need a rule that you can only race indoors if you don't train there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rjs, or maybe once these people have more opportunity to race indoors in BARTS seeded races their barts points will come down and this problem will gradually disappear?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
beequin wrote:
We went to the MK CN last year and the field was limited such that boys with less than 130 points were excluded. The penalties were high due to several Indoor-based racers entering with very high BARTS points (eg four of the first five who started with about 500).
Maybe need a rule that you can only race indoors if you don't train there.
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Probably just need a few more different type of races such as the British Indoor Grand Prix Series which I was not aware of until today, but can the calendar (and the indoor slopes) bear them; the indoor programme is starting to look crowded already.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| gsb wrote: |
rjs,
| Quote: |
| Dry slopes are dead |
Best you tell that to the competitors in the 50 odd races around the country this summer. ;-) As vivski, said, cost comes into it. |
Son #1 is currently trainig twice a week on the dry slope, plus probably 10 days of race camps, and competing regularly - at the last count 24 races planned for this year, maybe a few more if we can find enough other skiers to form a school team. There's simply no way we could do that if we were restricted to the indoor snowdomes. Even the nearest one to us works out at £25 a session, and only runs too late at night to really be any use for primary age kids. Going further afield to get more feasible times and the travel time/cost only goes up. Hence at the moment we're not even entering him for any of the indoor snow races - not a lot of point while he doesn't get the opportunity to train on it.
There's still an awful lot of the UK population which doesn't live close enough to a snowdome for that alone to be a viable option, whereas there are a lot more people within easier reach (and budget) of a dry slope. There's a lot of talent developed on the dry slope racing scene/by the dry slope based clubs which would be lost without it.
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