 Poster: A snowHead
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We went to the Viking a couple of years ago and thought it wasreally good value, although again Crystal seem to have doubled the price by making it a 'finest'. If you're not to fussed about going out at night its a great location. Staff were good when we were there, although that was the penultimate week.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Any assessment of the quality of TO clubhotels withy a view to going back again the following year is completely meaningless given that at least 90% of the staff and usually most of the management will be new and the whole thing will therefore be entirely different.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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whinge whinge whinge whinge wihnge whinge whinge whinge fu*king whinge... you fu*king whinging morons
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I almost always land up going with Crystal at New Year as they are by far the cheapest for a family of four flying from Scotland. By scouring their hard copy brochure (takes way too long online) it is possible to get 2 rooms (I don't want to share with kids) but still get the child discount in a chlalet or hotel for about £2,400. I am happy to travel independently (and do regularly in Jan and March) but at New Year there is no chance of beating Crystal's price. And booking via RBS gets 10% off too.
I was badly disappointed by the Hermitage in Alp D'Huez, but Chalet in La PLagne this year and the Diva in Tignes a couple of seasons ago were great. As was the Viking in Morzine a couple of Easters ago. Sticking with the same group, ie TUI we had a fab time in Selva last year (Neilsons) at a good proce (£1600 for two rooms, Gatwick flights) booked last minute.
If anyone out there can offer me 2 rooms (2 adults, 2 kids) in Kaprun or Zell am See, chalet board with Glasgow flights on 26 Dec for less than £2400 please get in touch, quick. Otherwise it will be Crystal again.
Oh, and to the poster that mentioned tiny rooms, that's France for you. Ski in Austria 
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It's normal for descriptions of French holiday accommodation to include the number of "square metres" so if people book a cheapo apartment, fail to read the small print and then find that the rooms are small, that's down to them being half-baked. There are apartments and chalets to rent of all sizes; if you want big rooms, get a place with big rooms. It's not rocket science. 
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| Ghost Dog wrote: |
I was badly disappointed by the Hermitage in Alp D'Huez, but Chalet in La PLagne this year and the Diva in Tignes a couple of seasons ago were great. As was the Viking in Morzine a couple of Easters ago. Sticking with the same group, ie TUI we had a fab time in Selva last year (Neilsons) at a good proce (£1600 for two rooms, Gatwick flights) booked last minute.
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Neilsons are not TUI, they are part of the Thomas cook group.
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Oops, mixing my Thomsons with my Thomas Cooks. Quite right, Neilsons, Panorama and Airtours now all one big happy brand (not according to reps).
Not that Thomas Cook actually fly from Scotland anymore 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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alex_heney, that's true, but these days it's so easy to look up the apartment elsewhere and find out the size. I just looked at random at a Crystal offering in Courchevel 1550, supposedly for 4 - 6 people. 30 square metres. So, comfortable for 2 people, pretty cramped for 4, and madness for 6. Very cheap to rent direct, thus giving people a good feel for quality and for how much extra they'd have to pay for the privelege of travelling with Crystal.
If people can't be bothered to take that extra couple of minutes to find out a bit more about the holiday on which they're proposing to shell out a couple of thousand pounds. 
Some of those French apartments are indeed very cramped, but they can also be fantastically cheap to rent direct. If a group of mates rented one of those basic apartments for two weeks in January then travelled with a budget airline Tues/Thursday, they'd have a 10 day holiday at a bargain basement price. It's difficult to know what "value added" the TO is providing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| Helen Beaumont,I think a lot of complaints seem to focus around food. I look at it this way. If you go out for a really nice meal in the UK, what do you expect to pay, say £30-40 per head including wine? Times that by 7 and you have £200+. Out of a £500 holiday, you can't expect 40% of your purchase price to be spent on feeding you. Therefore you need to lower your expectations from restaurant food to something a bit more realistic. |
I disagree strongly. If you go out for a really nice meal in the UK, ingredients (unless you have a prime cut of meat - and generally you will be eating a cheap cut, cooked long & slowly) will generally be well under a fiver - even including wine at French prices.
The rest of the £30-£40 in a UK restaurant pays for: staff - which is virtually free in a chalet; premises - rent, rates, water, electricity etc. all of which is already paid for in your rental of the chalet.
Food is a really good way for a TO to give its "value added" without costing it extra money. So the difference between £2 per head per day (frozen sausages + mash + two glasses of box wine) and £5 per head per day (proper meat, vegetables, pretty much unlimited carefully chosen French regional wine) is miniscule. £20 per head per week is the difference between "superb" and "rubbish" food.
I met some Crystal travellers when on holiday, and they complained bitterly about the quantity of wine - small glasses, bottles snatched away the moment the table was cleared; staff rushing guests through their meals in order to save money on wine.
The contrast between the stories on this thread, and the fantastic time I had with Alpine Action this year (charming staff, very helpful, nice home cooking (even if it was a bit 1970s), far more wine than we could drink (though had I been there with my friends we would have done rather better...)) says a lot.
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James the Last, It will cost the TO extra money in terms of buying the ingredients, but it the more significant factor is the lost profit - £20 per head per week extrapolated to 20 clients per chalet = £400 per week, x 15 weeks per season = £6000 per chalet per season, x say 100 chalets = £600,000 profit - a lot for a TO to give up. Better IMV to charge the £20 extra but delvier teh expected commensurate quality.
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You know it makes sense.
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queen bodecia,
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I think a lot of complaints seem to focus around food. I look at it this way. If you go out for a really nice meal in the UK, what do you expect to pay, say £30-40 per head including wine? Times that by 7 and you have £200+. Out of a £500 holiday, you can't expect 40% of your purchase price to be spent on feeding you.
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Well I'm just back from a chalet in Alpe D'Huez, the food was great  . Breakfast was continental, croisant and other pastries, french bread, jam etc. Lunch was a french bread, selection of cheeses, pates, a variety of dried sausages, salad etc with beer and hot drinks as wanted. Evening meal was various - spag bol one evening, my version of tartiflette one evening*, a beef caserole, a chicken caserole etc. There was a vegie option every evening and as much wine and beer as you wanted, and there was a cake most evenings as well.
We did that for under £70 per person for the whole week including one meal out in a restaurant in Lyon with the majority of the food bought in the resort at resort prices. I see no reason why a tour operator run catered chalet couldn't match the food we cooked.
* The response to my tartiflette from the kids in our group was interesting - they hated it it until they tasted it, then they were back for multiple extra helpings. We were a group of 18 (10 adults 8 kids) and two adults each cooked for one night.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Some points:
1. The wine glasses are whatever size the chalet owner supplies and nothing to do with any company policy.
2. If staff are rushing guests through the meal, it's probably because they want to go out. I have yet to meet any TO employee who gives a rat's ass about the wine budget.
3. If a TO fed you spag bol, assorted casseroles and someone's approximation to tartiflette on a chalet holiday, you would all whinge.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Lizzard, all good points, IMV.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have come across at least one large TO which was distinctly stingy with the (cheapo cheapo) wine, and chalet girls who had to work to a very mean budget, and woe bedtide them if they exceeded it. I guess these outfits are on tiny margins and have to screw everything they can out of the punters.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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richmond, the wine is complementary. What did you expect, a choice between Chablis and Chateauneuf du Pape?
More points:
1. Nothing much happens to staff who go over budget unless it's because they are sneaking through illicit stuff for themselves.
2. Big TOs have set menus and closed supply lists - you can generally only buy what they let you and cook what you're told.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Lizzard, I know that the basic fayre of Spag Bol, Casseroles and an approximation of Tartiflette would not be what I would expect from a chalet operator, I suppose that is why the kitchen budget was a paltry €70 a head. We got a couple of late availability deals this year both around €300 per person, fantastic food in both places.
As someone said earlier you get what you pay for in most instances! I got very lucky this year. Have been on chalet holiday with Crystal and it was the most basic chalet holiday I have done, but saying that I did not care too much as I still enjoyed the sliding!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lizzard, 'complementary' my arse. Anyway, it wasn't the quality I was highlighting, rather the stinginess. The chalet girls in the place I'm thinking of apparently did a good deal of the shopping themselves, to my surprise (it was probably 20 years ago), and claimed to be under a lot of pressure to keep costs down. Certainly their boss was an unpleasant little turd, and I can well believe that he gave them a hard time (as well as apparently sexually harrassing them). They were ill equipped for the task of running a chalet (or running a bath, if I'm honest), poor sods.
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It's obviously pot luck. We always had a good time in catered chalets and felt they were good value - but never went with Crystal, as it happens. But rock bottom budget operations are never likely to really shine, though it seems that some people have had great holidays because staff have taken a pride in what they're doing. They are paid so little that when they do so, it's admirable. My son just finished a season where he was paid 3000 euros a month, had decent accommodation (in one case an apartment far bigger than ours, between two of them  ) and a season lift pass for the 3 Valleys. I'm sure he cooked fantastic food, and took a great pleasure in doing so, but guests (or in the first of the two places he worked, the Parisian owners of the chalet and their friends and relations) paid well for the privelege of eating restaurant quality food. The second chalet he worked in (Courchevel 1850) charged up to £150K a week for 10 people accommodation only. That did include the cost of the staff, including the cook, but guests paid extra for the actual cost of the food - depending on the kind of thing they wanted. It defeats me that there are people willing to pay that much, but there are still plenty of them, it seems (more Arabs than Russians this year - Nick said the only Russians in his Courchevel chalet this year were charming, interesting and cultivated. He found most of the Arabs boring - he said that though a few got out skiing most of them just wanted to sit on the sofa watching telly and eating junk food all day - a bit like being on the dole, really.
Half the season there were no guests (surprise surprise) though the owners were there sometimes, so it was quite a cushy job, really. We met one of the other staff in the chalet, who said it was half empty last year too, but I suppose it's let for such astronomical sums they don't need to have it full all season to make a profit.
Maybe this economic downturn will see a significant shift in the nature of the holiday demand and supply and hasten what did seem to be a bit of a downward spiral for TOs, with DIY holidays becoming so easy to arrange. Last summer saw a spate of TO and airline failures; maybe there are more to come. But the quality end of the market seems more likely to survive.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| .......... I think maybe the Brits are just a fussy lot who often aren't happy unless they have something to complain about. .. |
While there are some stereotypical Brits to which this statement accurately refers, I would suggest that if TOs didn't raise expectations with inflated TO ratings, glossy unrealistic brochure pictures and the slightly irish tradition of 'it's only a stone's throw away' to measuring distances to slopes, ski bus stops and the centre of town, their clients would undoubtedly be a happier bunch. Half of ensuring customer satisfaction is managing expectations - perhaps a little more honesty would do us all good - both from the TO in describing what you are buying and from the holidaymaker in being realistic in what we are paying for.
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| Quote: |
perhaps a little more honesty would do us all good - both from the TO in describing what you are buying and from the holidaymaker in being realistic in what we are paying for.
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Dead right.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm pathologically careful when describing any property or resort, that I don't employ superfluous, flowery 'brochure-speak' or any 'fact' about which I'm unsure - if I can't verify something, it isn't used in the description. This isn't to say that an odd error doesn't happen (human, you see  ) but if something is a 20 minute walk from the lift, or the free ski bus stops at 5.00 pm, or the resort as dead as the grave after 6.00 pm, I'll say so. Consequently we get very few returning clients with any negative comments, (I don't count the lady who was 'surprised' that there wasn't a trouser press - yes, a trouser press - in an apartment that didn't promise one...  ). If you raise peoples hopes and expectations and then fail to deliver, wear a tin hat, as disappointment is not an emotion that people want to experience, in relation to their holiday.
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Went with Crystal last time. Changed reps towards the end of the week because the first was pulled to elsewhere. What a difference!
The first one was great - always at the hotel on time every evening for questions or sales, not pushy, told us what we needed to know (while some Thomson people missed out on useful info from their rep), good fun, chatty, etc. etc. He wanted a long term career with Crystal - not having another career that he was taking a break from.
His replacement was a graduate/professional maybe on a long term break. Never saw him once he took over. Perhaps it was a long term holiday.
Next time? After pricing about 4 or 5 TOs it will be Crystal again - cos they work out cheapest for what I want, especially because of their discounts for lesson/pass packages, and last time everything was fine and at least as well set up as I could expect.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Roy Hockley, Lizzard,
So now your insulting our food without actually eating it . So I didn't give it any flowery french names - but it was good, wholesome, tasty home cooked food made with fresh ingredients as good as the steak and chips or pasta bolognese we ate in the restaurant in Lyon for example. Now I've not been to a tour operator run catered chalet - but I thought a lot of them were staffed by students fresh out of college who did all the cooking (on a limited budget). I know we could do a better job than most of them ( I remember what my cooking was like then). I assume we are not talking about a luxury chalet that employs a professional chef to do the cooking. I'm just suggesting that given a reasonable budget a chalet host at the budget end of the holiday spectrum should be able to produce wholesome and tasty food.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| If a TO fed you spag bol, assorted casseroles and someone's approximation to tartiflette on a chalet holiday, you would all whinge. |
What's wrong with them? I'd take a well cooked example of any of those rather than poorly executed attempts at more elaborate food, cooked by people who have little expertise or feeling for decent food, which has been my experience on about 50% of chalet hols. I've eaten and enjoyed the first two on chalet hols, although no recollection of tartiflette.
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That is the problem with the cheaper priced chalet operators. The hosts may be there only for the season lift pass, but the quality and owner operated chalets are fantastic.
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You know it makes sense.
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richmond, there's nothing wrong with it. However, I guarantee that people would whine if that's what they were given on a chalet holiday.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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1) Self-catering trip to La Plagne:- Missed first days ski school as reps had given us the wrong lift passes. Booked into beginners class instead of level 2. Used them again to book the same apartments the following year,as they were the cheapest, but organised passes and ski school myself.
2) Catered Chalet in La Rosiere. Nice chalet, although the kids bunk room was a cupboard. Food was excellent despite the young ages of the staff, but reps after-midnight behaviour left a lot to be desired. Left stranded at Aime railway station for over an hour on the return trip at 7am in freezing temps and nearly missed our flight.
3) Self-catered Serre Chevalier. Bargain last minute Easter trip. Nice apartment,brand new and we were upgraded to a two bedroom on arrival. Didn't see a rep as he broke his leg. Skis we hired were awful, hubby bought his own in the end.
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Helen Beaumont, maybe your problem isn't Crystal at all.... maybe it's just FRANCE  
I've only really had a problem on one skiing holiday which was awful quality apartments and stroppy apartment owners / managers who thought accommodation was top class.... 5 of us crammed into a run down place which would have slep two comfortably.... it was with Thomson (who i accept are part of the same group as Crystal)... the problem was France!
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Ski Beat, Total and Esprit to name 3 that I've used that do provide free guiding.
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I was with Total in Lech this Easter and they offered a decent guiding service, not to mention very reasonable food & friendly and approachable staff. The chalet hotel was a little "tired" and the cleaning left a lot to be desired but generally we were satsifed and felt that the holiday offered value for money, but only after the 45% late booking discount! I wouldn't have liked to have paid full price for it!
All in all I try to avoid tour operators and travel independently. This way I generally save an awful lot of money, particularly at Feb half term (although the so called "low cost airlines" are starting to reduce my savings with their obscene pricing policies!), although from time to time we find a TO deal which is too good to turn down.
I think that generally the quality is higher is Austria and Switzerland than it is in Italy & France... that is a generalisation and no doubt there are exceptions... it's just my experience and I've skied extensively in all the "big 4" alpine nations.
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Poster: A snowHead
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SnowGod, I can assure you that the problem was most definitely NOT France, the part of the holiday provided by the locals was the most enjoyable part. .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
obscene pricing policies
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would you argue that airlines should forget market pricing and charge the same price for a ticket regardless of the level of demand? Given that there is excess demand on peak holiday weekends, how would you ration airline seats other than by price? Maybe make them available to deserving families who have never been skiing before? Or reserve them for families whose children are sitting GCSEs or A levels?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
the problem was France
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the problem wasn't France, it was a misleading description by the TO coupled with a failure, on the part of the client, to find out essential information about the offered accommodation. France has a very wide range of holiday accommodation available, from extremely cheap (which suits the many French families who do their winter sports holidays on a tight budget) to hugely expensive. To rent a holiday apartment without knowing how big it is is maybe not the wisest move in the world.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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pam w, AMEN.
pam w,
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just booked Totem at Flaine 10 April 2010 at less than this years price.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| bryanbolton wrote: |
| Just booked Totem at Flaine 10 April 2010 at less than this years price. |
Shall we all start praying for snow now?
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No need to pray, just need to start saving up.
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Just booked Chalet in kaprun with........ you've guessed it Crystal for New Year. Should I pray or make sacrifices on the altar in the back garden now? (For snow, not better food)
I must be especially brave (or stupid) to go to a chalet that early on before staff have learned to cook
But cheaper than the £1000 or so I spent going to St Anton 2 years ago for a 4 day trip. Must reign in restuarant/beer habit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Probably been with Crystal more than once, but the one I can remember and therefore comment on, was V d'I last year with Crystal Finest.
Everything was spot on, £1200 holiday in brochure for £600, LBA departure for no supplement, skis and boot carriage no supplement, private taxi for me and the missus from Chambery to V d'I, best room in Chalet (but we did pick this and pay a supplement in the £600), delicious dinners/breakfasts/afternoon teas, perfectly adequate packed lunches (small supplement, again in the £600), plentiful & drinkable bubbly and wine each night, willing and capable rep who told us about free night for ice driving with Audi and gala fireworks/parade night.
We were probably lucky as the chalet hosts were exceptional (pro chef & his ski instructor fiancee), the property was new, and we scored a bargain down to last years split Feb half term brochure price cock up, but my comment has to stand as an exceptional & faultless week.
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Last of the cheap Euro's to spend on the mountain probably helped as well (though with the pack ups we didn't need that many).
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FAQ
). great atmosphere - superb apres.
