 Poster: A snowHead
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the way i like to carve is go fast (this is fairly crucial), and then lean in to the turn as much as possible
its a tip, i hope.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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"Unable" and "very difficult" seems like a stretch, unless they have super-freakish feet.
I say this because there are a number of skiers I know who just cant stand up straight. The instructors are constantly telling them to get off the toilet but they really struggle even when they think they are not doing it to the res of us it is obvious.
I think there is more to it the just freakish feet the whole biomechanical make up of us all is different and the aim is to match the boot to the person.
I will agree not everyone NEEDs it to be able to ski but I think there are some who's biomechanical makeup is more extreme than others and if their gear adds to the imbalance they are at a very big disadvantage. For the rest of us it may be fine tuning but it works and makes a tangeble and demonstrable differences. For me it allowed my skis to lie flat on the snow and edge simultaneously when carving it also gave me a less backseat stance. Its just like tracking in your car, setting up your bike correctly, setting up the sights on a rifle etc. etc. You dont have to do these things but they all make their respective activities easier. If your not into it thats cool if you are well its nice to know it will make a difference.
It wont cure lack of technique (I can proove this in some aspects of my skiing :oops but I can work on these) but it does make a lot of things easier to achieve this I have proved to myself too. Yes its very popular on Snowheads at the moment and is featuring in at least 3 active threads. But hey its a forum and peoples experiences help others and when one person starts about a topic others will talk about their experiences too. Until recently I had not seen alignment discussed here in detail for quite a while. Its something Ive been wanting to get done for a while I'm very enthusiastic about the results it and make no apologies for sharing my experiences. By rare elsewhere, there seem to be an increasing number of ski schools and instructors (more so the private ones that offer courses rather than big ones in resorts) who are fans of it too.
We may have to agree to disagree on this one 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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All I'm saying is that I think it's a minority that are so out of whack that they need the whole alignment/balancing treatment to ski to a high level, and a ridiculously small minority that can't learn to ski to an intermediate level without. I've had mine done, it's nicer, but there's no way I'd tell clients it'd "improve their skiing", because it won't to a noticable level. I managed to ski for a few seasons without to a pretty high standard, so I find it really hard to take that the average person isn't able to "get their skis flat". I agree with your tracking analogy actually - except you have to keep in mind that the majority of people are 1-2deg out, and they're not F1 drivers. The big difference is tracking is for wheels that aren't linked directly to your foot, so you can't compensate...
It's not a big challenge to adjust your stance to compensate - I expect that most do naturally. Humans are quite flexible and have been skiing at high levels long before this extra layer of science.
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johnDUB, I'd like to see you sort out your default stem issue before you venture into carving. When you start carving correctly your speed is going to increase dramatically. The implulse to stem or pivot will be even greater. Get this stemming issue ironed out at slower speeds, build your foundation balance and edging skills first, and the stem/pivot will be much easier to keep out of the picture when you get to carving later. When you get to that point in your skill development journey, carving often just happens spontaneously.
Sounds like you need to begin with some fore/aft balance work. Practice skiing in different states of fore/aft. Get in touch with the base of your feet, and develop the ability to be ever aware of where the pressure is concentrated there: ball, heel, or centered. Discover how skiing in different fore/aft balance states affects the nature of how your skis perform. Experience how relaxing and efficient it is to be center balanced. From there you can begin to focus on your steering skills, your transitions, and your turn shape.
Here's a good one for shedding the stem. You generally will have the majority of your weight on your outside foot/ski when you're skiing efficiently. In this exercise, try moving the majority of your weight to your inside (uphill) ski just before you finish your turn. How? Easy. Just press gently down on your inside foot. This will create a state of temporary imbalance that will cause you to tip off your uphill edges, finish the turn, tip onto your downhill edges, and begin the new turn. The whole process is called a transition. Keep your weight on your uphill (new outside) ski through the entire process and your stem will be gone. The reason? Simple. You can't stem your uphill (new outside) ski if you're standing on it.
Another helpful hint. Try to make the transition process happen gradually and slowly. And stretch out how long it takes you to get from turn initiation (the moment the downhill edges begin to engage), to the time at which your skis are pointing straight down the falline. This will help eliminate any tail pushing (pivoting) too,,, another major issue for most learning skiers.
If you find you're still having trouble with pushing/pivoting the start of your turns (it can be a difficult habit to shake), try hesitation transitions. In those you pause in the middle of your transition, when your skis are flat on the snow, travel straight ahead for a moment, then very subtly begin to roll onto your downhill edges and begin a very long radius new turn. The pause breaks the default pivot movement pattern thats ingrained in the muscle memory,,, and gives you a moment to mentally regroup and think about how you want to initiate your new turn subtly and softly by simply tipping onto a low edge, allowing the skis themselves to auto lead you into the new turn.
Hope that helps.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DaveC,
So we agree it works and that how screwed up you are (biomechanically) will determine how well it works.
Obviously you need to be able to do the things right to get full benefit but good tools will make it easier. But its no substitute for technique.
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Humans are quite flexible and have been skiing at high levels long before this extra layer of science.
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I agree with you for most its not necessary to get to a decent level. The people I mentioned have reached intermediate quite easily one was a very fast learner he took to it so fast but hit a plateau after week one and never got any better he skis down most black runs but there is so much he cant do from the extreme back seat and less experienced skiers are passing him by in a variety of conditions. Of the people I know about 1 in 10 fit this class of extreme bad stance but do progress to intermediate they are sporty and not fearful but not obsessed by the sport so it does not seem to bother them. Most intermediates will be too far back in their stance to some extent, myself included, but I do find it natural to maintain an upright stance since being aligned and I'm now less likely to react by sitting back, end result I am centered and can make the skis respond easier than before. I would think fear holds more people back as often the thing you need to do in skiing does not feel natural at first and requires a leap of faith.
Some people just don't get into skiing the same as the rest of us and wont think about it between one trip and the next. If they are enjoying skiing at whatever level they are at thats fine skiing has served them well no matter how much better others (like me  ) think they could ski and they would be better spending the money on whatever it is that floats their boat. However there is a case for alignment being recommended to anyone who wants to improve have obvious biomechanical issues that are holding them back.
For the less biomecanically screwed, who want everything perfect go do it, it works and you wont be able to blame your kit.
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It's not a big challenge to adjust your stance to compensate - I expect that most do naturally.
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I don't think we are in agreement as to how it works though.
Having to adjust stance is part of the problem. What is nice about being aligned is that you dont have to do anything to get them flat (lateral alignment) and when you edge they edge together as a result. Also its easier to stay centred with good stance (fore-aft alignment) Some people get aligned slightly inside cause thats how they like it. I don't think we compensate naturally to create a flat ski but rather body adjusts to where it naturally wants to be and the ski lies accordingly, so its not natural to adjust stance to make the skis lie flat. If you adjust your stance to flatten edges you end up with a weaker column through which to exert forces so you can pressure your joints more from the sides (increased injury risk) rather than take the forces straight up the leg this can contribute to a non symmetrical stance but still wont make it possible to edge simultaneously.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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DaveC, I agree that a certain amount of lateral alignment inaccuracy you can live with & compensate for but delta issues will have a great impact & if you've got too much you'll always be in the back seat & also have a greater chance of having too small an ankle flex range.
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Agree with an earlier DaveC post. This really worked for me after a lot or reading, video-watching and trial and error :-
Concentrate on transferring your weight onto outside ski but down through the arch of your foot and apply pressure increasingly after you start turning, making sure you decrease the angle of your shin to foot (ie. ankle flexing) in the same way as the turn progresses. There are probably many other do's/dont's aswell eg. hands forward and hips staying in line with the skis. Hope this helps
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Holy thread necromancy. I read the last couple of posts and they made so little sense I wondered if I'd been sleep posting....now I have to re-read a bunch of workmen blaming their tools to work out what skier52 agreed with
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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johnDUB, You may be bow legged , as this will cause you difficulties holding your inside edge.
Stand in shorts with your feet pointing straight ahead parallel and bend your knees.
If the centre of your knees aligns towards the outside of your feet then you are knock kneed and will find it harder to
hold an inside edge.
If they align with the inside of your foot then you're knock kneed and will have difficulties releasing your edge to begin a turn.
Cem can remedy this.
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Seriously, why do people always assume that anyone that doesn't ski perfectly needs to improve their gear? Regardless of all the issues in this thread, I'll pretty much guarantee 98% of people who aren't carving reasonably well would benefit more from a good lesson than tweaking anything equipment related.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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DaveC, yep.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DaveC, double yep.
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DaveC, everyone needs to improve their gear!
don't they??
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You know it makes sense.
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DaveC, True I agree ,and most people think that the weeks lesson that they took on their first trip will do them forever.
However a lesson will be a lot more beneficial if you are able to get your skis on and off of their edges.
knoched knees held me back for 15 years and I had no clue.
A good instructor will be able to spot alignment problems.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DaveC,
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why do people always assume that anyone that doesn't ski perfectly needs to improve their gear?
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I don't think they do, do they? First assumption is they need a few decent lessons! Alignment issues may play a part, but some people may be able to overcome / compensate for them without tweaks to eupiment (like me, or so I was told by an instructor who specialised in alignment years ago). Of course it depends on how severe the issue is, and getting alignment sorted out by someone who knows what they're doing, is certainly not going to cause any harm.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DaveC wrote: |
| Seriously, why do people always assume that anyone that doesn't ski perfectly needs to improve their gear? |
I don't know.... Now and again I've borrowed the hire gear that friends & clients have had and it's been less than ideal to learn to carve on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| FastMan wrote: |
If you find you're still having trouble with pushing/pivoting the start of your turns (it can be a difficult habit to shake), try hesitation transitions. In those you pause in the middle of your transition, when your skis are flat on the snow, travel straight ahead for a moment, then very subtly begin to roll onto your downhill edges and begin a very long radius new turn. The pause breaks the default pivot movement pattern thats ingrained in the muscle memory,,, and gives you a moment to mentally regroup and think about how you want to initiate your new turn subtly and softly by simply tipping onto a low edge, allowing the skis themselves to auto lead you into the new turn.
Hope that helps. |
I spent a week at Jackson Hole during the last Epic Gathering doing nothing but those.
Pretty sure people were looking at me funny (for that too, that is). 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| Holy thread necromancy. I read the last couple of posts and they made so little sense I wondered if I'd been sleep posting....now I have to re-read a bunch of workmen blaming their tools to work out what skier52 agreed with |
Apologies DaveC, I am a new snowhead and should have noted that I was referring to your post of 23.49 30th May, instead of jumping in. Must try harder next time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
You may also need to reduce your aspirations a little. So, instead of trying to carve a full turn off the cuff, you should try cleanly carving a traverse on both sides. And then trying carved "J" turns. Only then should you move onto trying to carve full turns.
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I was at Hemel this morning. There were a few people on the performance morning, some quite good skiers, some not so quite good They were mostly doing drills designed to put in place building blocks that lead towards carving, with varying levels of success. Struck me though that all could do with heeding Phil's advice here. The feeling of a clean carve on the edges is quite distinct and though if your building blocks are in place and you are very conscious of what your skis are doing you could indeed suddenly find yourself carving, [heresy]I think for many some "form" learning does come into it.[/heresy] A little time spent on clean J turns and also wide stance ankle rolling turns on a very shallow slope certainly helped me.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| DaveC, I agree that a certain amount of lateral alignment inaccuracy you can live with & compensate for but delta issues will have a great impact & if you've got too much you'll always be in the back seat & also have a greater chance of having too small an ankle flex range. |
Fore and aft drills to find the balance of the ski...
I don't think you should suffer AT ALL with your boots completely undone if you can find this balance... including no booster strap...!!!!
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Do folk think that the old drill of skiing the flattish bits on one foot and making nice S turns would help in getting a feel for letting the ski come round in it's own good time? Seems to be a not bad balance exercise anyhow.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| JT wrote: |
| spyderjon wrote: |
| DaveC, I agree that a certain amount of lateral alignment inaccuracy you can live with & compensate for but delta issues will have a great impact & if you've got too much you'll always be in the back seat & also have a greater chance of having too small an ankle flex range. |
Fore and aft drills to find the balance of the ski...
I don't think you should suffer AT ALL with your boots completely undone if you can find this balance... including no booster strap...!!!! |
Indeed. You'd really struggle to find a ski boot + binding combo that puts you far enough back to "always" be in the back seat anyway. I haven't heard such massive concern about ankle flex from any of the high level coaches and instructors that I've worked with either... I think one of the issues about discussing ski technique on the internet is that everyone's likely had a main focus from their instruction - and these causes are therefore very important to an individual. I really don't think there're many single issues that're applicable across the board.
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DaveC, so far as I can make out, Warren Smith and his merry men are slightly obsessed with ankle flex. (Until this week, I was skiing in boots which almost totally prevented me from flexing my ankles anyway. So ankle flex is for me a novel and pleasing sensation at the moment, and I think it could prove quite useful.  )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hurtle, yeah, seems so. Never met the bloke, or seen his techniques for teaching and he's got far more experience in the job than I do, so I'm not saying it's wrong - just seems to be the exception from the norm. Personally I don't really see why ankle flex is any more or less important than knee/hip flex or whatever.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DaveC, well, I've been told that I might have got into the habit of bending my knees too much, to compensate for lack of ankle flex, and that has probably thrown me into the back seat - where, unfortunately, I frequently reside.
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Personally I don't really see why ankle flex is any more or less important than knee/hip flex or whatever.
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DaveC, i kinda agree with Warren in that most intermediates dont get enough ankle flex. I think it is more important to flex with the ankles as it all starts with the joint closest the snow reacting to whats happening or trying to get something else to happen. lost of people start their flexing/extending too high up the chain and just end up out of balance and standing too stiff and static on their planks...
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, fair. I agree it's important but objectively they're all important? I can see the concept is focusing on it because getting it right helps get the rest right - just that it's a bit odd that the cult of ankle flex has happened from it 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, hmm, I'd have said that it was to do with remaining appropriately stacked. Ankle flex in my lay opinion is not any more important because it's nearest the snow (my big toe joint is nearer, f'rinstance) but rather that it a seems that inadequate ankle flex is both a common problem and results in inappropriate stance.
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Poster: A snowHead
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under a new name, definately but i see lots who waist break in an effort to get "stacked"
DaveC, yup they are all important and yes i agree a bit of cultishness with regards to ankle flex seems to have emerged but i do think ankle is a more important link in the chain.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Do folk think that the old drill of skiing the flattish bits on one foot and making nice S turns would help in getting a feel for letting the ski come round in it's own good time? Seems to be a not bad balance exercise anyhow.
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Yes, absolutely.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| Do folk think that the old drill of skiing the flattish bits on one foot and making nice S turns would help in getting a feel for letting the ski come round in it's own good time? Seems to be a not bad balance exercise anyhow. |
With the caution that young, well-muscled skiers tend to make that drill into a butt-flailing exercise as they muscle the one ski around with their upper body weight.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret, I think that's the problem I waqs referring to; breaking at waist instead of flexing at ankle to get into balance without being "stacked" - thus problems.
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FAQ
