 Poster: A snowHead
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I've seen the Chart. It looks more used than a teenager's copy of Playboy. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman, Then i'm Hugh Heffner! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ct1, Your first link with second width chart is, I think, likely to be the closest link to the information in the OP from what I understand of their question. Obviously their width chart is linked to the US sizes, but it would be easy enough from the tables to work out which Mondo sizes the widths corresponded to. What that chart shows quite nicely is the point that Spyderman and I discussed about how last width will vary with length. However, the links to Epic also point out, probably quite rightly, that a chart is only a starting point and because everyone's feet are unique the services of a good bootfitter are still quite essential to getting a good fit. I don't think they need to worry about their jobs. 
but I have a sneaky suspicion that their defensiveness is because between us we are very close to working this out !!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, I seriously doubt that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Schuss in Boots, There's all sorts of interesting stuff out there - the zipfit liners website despite a warning that it could damage my PC  loaded up fine and had an article about how they fit the fit the zipfit liners, also at bootfitters.com there was some really interesting stuff about boot fitting guidelines and how they are measured and checked. Mind you I still wouldn't go out and buy boots without visiting a 'bootfitter'. However, I think it is in our interests as skiers to know a bit about what goes on, that way if we can't visit one of the 'big name' fitters it gives us novices some background against which to measure if we are getting decent service/'are they doing what we think they should' when we visit our chosen ski boot outlet. There was also lots of general information about which manfacturers cater for wide feet or 'high volume' feet and what was meant by that term. Finally there is a fair bit about how the boot should 'feel' on the foot. This was my biggest concern when I bought boots as I still feel that despite all the measurement there could be and the experience of the 'bootfitter' at the end of the day, short of xray of the foot in the boot, the fitter can't 'see' or 'feel' the foot in the boot and so has to rely finally on what the customer is telling them, and certainly when you buy your first boots you don't really know how they should feel, so I think its useful to read comments like this.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The said chart could be a disaster if people start measuring their feet and buying boots that read off the same width. Most of you don't know the size of your feet and the width of the foot is to dicount any lumps or bumps. Nothing more nothing less.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, believe me you are not winding us up, just goiving us more amunition against yourself...no not worried about my job or that you may have worked it out, as steve has said, this information if used wrongly could mean even more people getting the wrong boots than they do already, another perfectly good reason for not putting it here is that why do we want to give this information to every free loading boot seller who lurks around this site looking to pick up free info to help them increase their business, if you visit steve or myself we will no doubt show you the chart, and expalin why we are making boot selection choices based on it but that is the only way you will see the charts that we have.
i have just looked at all your links and not one of them gives close to the correct information, the last one with the widths in US sizes uses a USAS brannock device which is a different scale form the UK and Mondopoint ones which we use, the one looking at all the critical dimensions of the touring boots is also flawed as it deals with boots in a size 28/28.5 it does not deal with the heart size 26.5 and it does not do the grading it is understanding the grading of lasts not only in width but in volume as well which makes the whole thing a little more complicated than you realize
slikedges, i don't want your pay slip, but prehaps if you leave your bank details , credit card numbers and security codes lying around, oh and if you could up the limits on all your cards as well 
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| CEM wrote: |
| Megamum, believe me you are not winding us up, just goiving us more amunition against yourself... |
... and this coming from the person who refused to share the identity of Resort X 
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You know it makes sense.
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I seem to have opened a can of worms.......just for the record I am not a boot seller/fitter and was just curious, to give me something to mull over when narrowing down choices for my next set of boots. I completely understand that if original work went into making the charts then of course they shouldnt be made publicly available, i just assumed that the manufacturers would have these charts (they know the size of their own moulds surely), and it would be in their interests to send them to all stockists, as a boot fitting aid.
Incidentally, are any of the bootfitters here accomplished skiers (ISIA or competition background, not saying you cant be accomplished otherwise, just a reference point)? The reason i ask is that although the number one mantra is quite reasonably to get a good fit, there are other characteristics of a boot that are desirable/undesirable that are unrelated to fit such as flex stiffness, flex "feel", lateral stiffness, rebound energy, stance (somatec etc), forward lean, cuff height, shock absorption, weight, warmth and probably a few others. No doubt marketing nonsense will account for some of these, but they all will affect the feeling of a boot in some way or another. Now if all shells can be worked to fit by a good bootfitter, would it make sense to choose a boot based on your personal preference of the specific charactersitics above, then get the shell altered? Is this why most "high performance" boots are quite narrow? Why does no company make a line of plug boots with a combination of those features (ie not just race specific features)? seems like a good idea.
Anyway,CEM, im aiming to see you around september time for a fitting, maybe then i can get a peak at those charts
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skifluff, The making of the chart was with 3 boot manufacturers, of which the 3 had guys that had worked for nearly all the brands over their careers. It is not readily available, infact i wasn't sure if indeed Colin had it until he told me he had. The reasons are that i was worried that people might start using it as a standard, ignoring other factors such has heel width, shape, instep hight, toe shape etc. It was created for the making of moulds for ski boots, designing lasts and has now developed into a quick reference for CAD and Model work for the ski industry. There is nothing mysterious about it, it's just not helpful on it's own and if anything, misleading.
Regarding ISIA etc. I haven't met anyone who understands, Flex, stiffness, rebound and all the other stuff you list. In my opinion/experience, the people you would expect to need to understand this, do not, and are miles from the truth in most cases, yet still 'Chop off' about stuff such as the list you have given, just parrott fashion as the information is transmitted word of mouth and subject to Chinese whispers, so to speak.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skifluff, didn't think you were a boot seller, there are a few who lurk here i know of, a few years back i did compete, and i coached but not since 1994, my cert was snsc race coach, probably somewhere between APC 1&2 as it is now
as steve has said, i don't know too many people at that level or above who actually understand the kit they are using, there are plenty of coaches/instructors out there having people put into boots way too stiff etc, when a good fitter looks at a boot for you they are looking at fit, flex, lateral rigidity leg length, body weight etc etc. all the factors get put into the mix to get the best boot, if the fit is fundementally correct then a skier can flex a stiffer boot then they would if that boot was a size too big due to the contsact of the shin on the front of the boot and the leverage that they can generate
i am working with a number of basi trainers on a project to get a stance/balance/equipment awareness module into the system, it is a long way off but some subtle changes that we have made to a few top instructors kit is slowly allowing them to realize how important it is
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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CEM,
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i am working with a number of basi trainers on a project to get a stance/balance/equipment awareness module into the system, it is a long way off but some subtle changes that we have made to a few top instructors kit is slowly allowing them to realize how important it is
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I talked to Andi about just that and i think a basic introduction to alignment etc would be fantastic module for Instructors. Word i heard from someone in the know is that the ISIA Common theory module is going to be completely revamped and more biomechanics and coaching elements added so perhaps it isnt too far off.
I think sometimes fitting and alignement is too much of a black art. Doing it correctly requires lots of experience and knowledge but it would be good if Insturctors had some basic training on spotting equipment related issues so that we can intelligently inform clients about probelms and make broad recommendations and steer them to the right people off the hill. I have tried to learn some of this stuff off my own back but finding information is difficult and most of the readily available info is >20 years old...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Doing it correctly requires lots of experience and knowledge but it would be good if Insturctors had some basic training on spotting equipment related issues so that we can intelligently inform clients about probelms and make broad recommendations and steer them to the right people off the hill. |
I agree, that would be a good thing.
I try to mention boot issues whenever I'm being taught by a Trainer. I think without exception all have at least heard of CEM even if they don't use his services, but their approach to customisation seems to be focused more on comfort rather than on making changes to improve performance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, rob@rar, Andi is the driving force behind this project as he is in the inner circle so to speak, one of the awareness things we were looking at is having 4 pairs of identical skis set up heel high toe high canted 2degrees out 2 degrees in, having people using each and feeling the differences, we fully understand that 2 degrees is not right for everyone or indeed anyone in the group...just depends but it will show awarenss of what is happening under foot, need to find us a company who will give 4 pairs of skis to the cause or at least make them very very cheap as we can't afford to just walk out and buy then even at trade.
if this goes ahead we would be then talking to the indoor slopes and discussing the possibilities of doing sessions with them, the future would be open sessions for recreational skiers to allow them to understand being in and out of balance
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CEM, good idea.. you should see if rossi will donate some of their,soon to be scrapped skis
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CEM, sounds very interesting. Speak to PSG at Hemel? Head are providing all the kit I think, so maybe they could throw a few extra pairs in for you and Andi to setup?
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rob@rar, it is a pretty specific thing we need to get, they all need to be the same, we need somethng a bit above a rental ski as the majority of skiers on them will be instructors they also need to be flat top as we need to insert lifts /wedges etc onto them
i will indeed speak to PSG regarding doing a session there, even if BASI do not adopt it as a requirement i can still see plenty of ski schools interested in doing something
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CEM, as an idea you may be able to do it with a VIST speedlock plate and some machined up shims. you could then also play around with fore aft location and cater for individual boot lengths.
i had to make shims for telemark bindings and Andy/Jon were helpful in getting me spare pins etc..
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monster77
monster77
Guest
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| Megamum wrote: |
| What that chart shows quite nicely is the point that Spyderman and I discussed about how last width will vary with length. |
Why would the last width alter the length. You can buy normal shoes of the same size in narrow and wide fitting, so the last widt would not alter the length.
I am sure that I have read somewhere maybe on snowheads, that skiboot lasts do come in wider or narrower sizes but without changing the length. It is just not many shops stock anything other than the standard width.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| monster77 wrote: |
I am sure that I have read somewhere maybe on snowheads, that skiboot lasts do come in wider or narrower sizes but without changing the length. It is just not many shops stock anything other than the standard width. |
mostly wrong 
ski boots come in 1 last per model, many models from one manufacturer may share the same last and when it comes to race boots the you may see plug and modified plug, the plug boot for example of the Head Raptor is on the RD [race department] last has a width of 95mm the RS last is 98mm and can be found on the 120, the supershape , the Ltd the RD is on the 130 RD and 150RD
these last widths are taken on a 26/26.5 shell as the size goes up or down the width does the same, it is proprtional just like a jacket as someone described it, the closest thsat you will find the ski boots the same being in different widths would be some of the race ranges as described above, other than that what you will find is differing boots in a range being in differing widths ie boots in the atomic range are available in one of the following 93mm,95mm,98mm,101mm,102mm,104mm but with the exception of the race boots they each only come in one last
hope that makes sense
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