Question for the instructors - should we wear helmets when teaching?

A snowHead

beanie1,

You raise a good question. Maybe even an excellent one. Although it's maybe not the one you thought you were asking..IMHO there are two questions here (at least)

1. Should instructors behave at all times as examples, societal leaders, etc.?

2. Are helmets beneficial to the adult population.?

You need to answer (2.) first before addressing (1.).

And that answer to (2.) is far from clear.

(For kids however, it is)

A snowHead

I do not wear a helmet when teaching beginners on plastic. I do however always wear one when teaching higher groups. I was supervising some instructors last week and did not put my helmet on and I must admit it felt a bit like driving a car without wearing a seat belt just did not feel right.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

My thoughts on this are that as instructors we should be setting an example in all areas whilst on the hill (and off it too, if in uniform), this of course in a big way includes safety. I can understand why some schools are now making the wearing of helmets compulsory for their employees.

In reply to some earlier comments in this thread I don't think there is an enormous difference if you are leading or instructing as regards requirements for looking behind. I have done both over the years and worn/not worn helmets in both roles. When leading it very much comes down to how you lead. If you ski ahead and stop at a meeting point then peripheral/rear viewing is less important as you stop and look up the hill for your group. If leading and having people roughly follow your line as you ski (i.e not skiing well ahead) then peripheral/rearward viewing is nearly as important as it is when teaching (not quite so much as your not having to try to analyse someones movements as in teaching).

The way I lead varies depending on the group and the terrain we may be encountering as we ski.

Further I have been run into many times on nursery slopes whilst teaching (though you develop a kind of six sense for out of control skiers you still get caught occassionally), all of these collisions (until now) have been at slow speed. But it is possible that a skier who panics and doesn't 'bale out' before getting too much speed up could run into me and cause great injury (as I would be either stationary or moving very slowly I would almost certainly come off worst)

As to my actual point of view as to if we as instructors should wear helmets - well I'm still making my mind up as I started skiing in the era when only racers wore helmets, but I think in time I will be wearing a helmet at all times.

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marcellus, a sensible question was asked and various instructors have given their opinion, why did you have to turn it into yet another 'helmet' thread?

FWIW. I don't normally wear a helmet. I have one that I wore at half term as I was concerned for my safety. I also wore it when I went to LG. I find it uncomfortable - and yes - I tried on almost every v.small helmet in town before buying one which seemed the most comfortable. However I have long ears, and the ear pieces squash them. I don't have the very best hearing and I felt this was compromised, and my peripheral vision was deffo affected. It was not comfortable with glasses which I prefer. One day was poor weather and I wore goggles and my peripheral vision was further affected. I was the first ski teacher on the mountain to wear a helmet for other than freestyle/freeride/racing. A couple of the ESF girls did wear them that week too, but I suspect they were quietly supporting me. I also got a small amount of ribbing from various colleagues.

I insist children skiing with me wear helmets, but adults are just that and can make up their own minds. I take the point about example, but with only (AIUI) 2% or injuries being head injuries I fail to see why adults should feel any pressure - kids yes, with not completely formed skulls etc.

Actually I disagree with beanie1, I think we are more at risk, particularly skiing with slow moving groups. If we're concentrating on our students, we are less likely to see the idiot coming. When skiing myself I'm hyper-aware of what's going on around me, with classes I'm much more aware of them and of setting the right line etc.

For a bit of off topic interest; on Friday I was knocked into Caistor Skier when an idiot bloke set off and skied straight into us. He didn't follow his group, we were out of the way, and yet he skied into me, knocked me into Judith. I hit my arm hard on her skipole and it's now very sore (the arm I can regularly not use due to tendonitis) ..... he was wearing a helmet, we weren't and apparently it was unreasonable of me to be angry since he hadn't meant to hurt us!!! rolling eyes

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I always wear a helmet on the mountain now. I never wear one in a dome, unless doing gates. Running up and down the nursery slope, holding people up, controlling their skis is hot work. Partic if wearing a jacket zipped up to look smart, either of my helmets could pose a problem. I suppose there may be models that could lessen the problem significantly. However I do believe in the behavioural compass thing. I think it's a very important part of the leadership role.

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under a new name, In answer to 1) - no - why should we?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

rob@rar, the kids haven't been to VT yet, I've been trying to recall if the chap that took us adults from Prosneige in VT wore a helmet I tend to recall that he did, but couldn't swear to it. I will try to pay attention at Easter when the kids are taking lessons with Prosneige. Gaelle from New Gen took me in a group at the EoSB last year, and I'm fairly certain that she did wear a helmet.

After all it is free

Megamum, ah, sorry - got mixed up with your trips. Gaelle did wear a helmet at the EoSB, IIRC.

easiski, (in case you hadn't noticed and in a fit of unmasking, it's David Murdoch here in disguise)...you shouldn't. wink

And you know, I think. my answer on (2.) wink

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eng_ch, You are probably right. I can remember the time when seat belts were first made mandatory - it felt odd to begin with, yet now I am so used to wearing one that it feels odd to even move the car on the driveway without belting up.

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You know it makes sense.

I find the argument regarding a possible lack of hearing possibly understandable, although as I understand things many helmets can be worn above the ears. However, the argument regarding a lack of peripheral vision seems less easy to comprehend assuming that those putting it forward as a argument would, and yes I am only guessing, probably teach quite happily in a pair of goggles which in my experience are far more limiting in terms of peripheral vision than a helmet seems to be. Also, I would imagine that careful selection could produce a low volume helmet of a design that would minimise the bulk to the side of the head. rob@rar, I think you put forward that viewpoint - do you teach in goggles? and, if so, do you experience similar problems with a loss of peripheral vision that you identified could be a problem if you wore a helmet?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Megamum, it's the goggles that are a problem rather than the helmet per se. I find I lose a bit of peripheral vision when I wear goggles. As I don't wear glasses with a helmet any mandatory wearing of one would always mean I had to wear goggles, with the consequent loss of peripheral vision. It's not much or a problem in regular skiing, but if you're spending a lot of time looking over your shoulder to see people skiing directly behind you I find it a bit of an issue.

A snowHead

I just struggle with this concept of setting an example when applied to adults. Unless someone wants to argue that there is some sort of moral imperative to helmet-wearing Puzzled

A snowHead

I'm happy to wear a helmet teaching. Giro 9.9 with removable ear pads and plenty of ventilation. Even with the ear pads on, hearing isn't a problem.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I generally wear a helmet teaching(and free skiing), not normally absolute beginners though. The problems with vision are no worse than a motorcycle helmet, looking behind (the lifesaver) is the same with a group behind. Personal choice, but I think it is a good example to set.

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I don't wear a helmet teaching on our magic carpet, which is fenced off and I tend to not get skis on that often either. I don't wear a beanie either when I'm that hot though. I choose to ski and teach with a helmet on the rest of the time. I don't think it should be mandatory for instructors, though if you're teaching kids they're usually switched on enough to ask why you aren't wearing one!

Adults are capable of making their own decisions on safety, and should be left to it. With that point of view, I'm amazed the topic comes up so much here.

Kids in lessons, imo, should be required to wear a helmet - to protect them, to protect their instructor, and because I don't think they're mature enough to make a decision on safety vs comfort. Same applies to kids out of lessons, but you can't make that mandatory so easily.

I think anyone with hearing or vision issues needs to try a better fitting helmet or goggles...

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

under a new name, Aah - I was wondering who you were, but so many peeps have more than one identity on here I couldn't be bothered to try and find out!!! Shocked

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Interestingly enough after this topic last night I met an ESF Technical Director for a beer so as it was forefront of my mind I decided to seek his oppinion on the subject of "should instructors wear helmets".

His personal view was that yes they should and that the only reason why ESF instructors are voting against it locally and regionally at the moment is that they are digging their heals in over the payment calculations they have to make back to central ESF and this is one of the few ways that they have that know of that they can annoy ESF Central.

With regard to the glasses and helmet issue, I can appreciate where some might be coming from (not mentioning anyone in particular as they might take offence and that is not my intention) as Mrs M hated wearing her glasses with her helmet but has now changed her glasses which fit a lot better under the helmet and do not provide any issues.

As I have said all along my perspective/oppinion isn't given as an instructor and I can appreciate that there might be instances peculiar to teaching.

Possibly the helmet manufactuers need to do more development work on the design of helmets so that they have no thermal properties, there are GIRO helmets out there for different purposes and which I am not suggesting for one minute would be suitable for skiing but demonstrate that manufacturers could possibly use their R&D to develop alternative helmets.

However, until the need to develop these helmets is presented to them in a constructive and "mass market" way they won't... so you're in a chicken and egg situation... they probably do undertake market research but I having watched helmet designs change over the past couple of years suspect it is more aimed at aesthetics and not function.... perhaps it needs a large group of users were to present the issue for the issue to be resolved.

on the sub topic;
> MJF thank you for pointing out what was actually written and not what some assumed
> DaveC careful you'll go upsetting someone.
> easiski in case it slipped your notice but the op was whether instructors should or should not wear helmets

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

marcellus, I saw my first ever helmet-wearing ESF instructor this season. I was so shocked I skied after him to take a photo.

After all it is free

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rob@rar, actually I was pretty surprised by how few Interski instructors were wearing helments, particularly when free skiing - what did you think? Most of my friends now wear helmets when skiing, the same sort of demographic and skiing ability as these instructors.

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rob@rar, agree entirely. As a punter, I wouldn't be that pleased for my kids to ski with an instructor or a guide who wasn't wearing a helmet, and I suppose that I would be a bit disappointed if we met the instructor on the slopes outside a lesson and s/he wasn't wearing a helmet. Not so much now (they're 15!) but when they were little, the kids thought the world of their instructors (apart from one or two whom they disliked intensely!).

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beanie1, I didn't when I was teaching, but I did for free skiing and the instructor development sessions after teaching had finished. I think there were two instructors wearing helmets, and both took them off when teaching on the Baby Pila nursery slope (plus jackets and sometimes gloves because it was very warm). I didn't think it was strange that so few wore them when teaching, although I was a little surprised that more didn't wear one when free skiing because, inevitably perhaps, we skied around the resort at a pretty quick pace.

On the first day the group I was teaching did ask about having to wear a helmet and ask why I wasn't wearing one. My reply was that (a) it was the law for under-15s, and (b) they were much more likely to fall over than I was (although I did mention that I would wear one when skiing at my pace later in the day). The explanations seemed to satisfy them and there was nothing more said about helmets during the week. While I understand the point about instructors setting an example, my group didn't have a problem with me not wearing a helmet while they had to.

Ski Schools or indeed anyone engaging others to provide instruction, or workers, on a UK ski slope must have carried out an appropriate risk assessment for that activity. I am surprised that Hi-Viz clothing (well certainly the banning of white clothing) and protective headgear are not compulsary.

Have any of the UK based instructors received guidance from there employer or organiser?

Dontcha just luuurve H&S Toofy Grin

You know it makes sense.

As a helmet wearing parent and advocate of wearing helmets I must admit I would be a bit put out if an instructor turned up to take my kids without one - hence my surprise at rob@rar's, posting above that implies ESF instructors don't routinely wear them. Perhaps, not enough to make a scene and demand that they do, but I think with kids in partiular that instructors are probably revered in the same way as school teachers and could use this admiration to set what I personally feel is a good example to the kids by wearing one when they are teaching youngsters.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Megamum, in my experience very few instructors wear helmets when teaching any groups below intermediate level, kids or not, and mostly don't wear a helmet at all. One issue is that an instructor might have three or four different groups during a day, with no opportunity to change kit between sessions. So you can't change skis, drop off or pick up a helmet, etc.

A snowHead

rob@rar, is there a helmet made that doesn't restrict sight lines or hearing? If there is I'll buy one Very Happy

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Skierslodge tend to make sure everyone is in a helmet, clients and guides alike. I don't think they'd get away with this if they exempted their guides from the requirement. There is a definite role modelling effect - perhaps due to the calibre of the people they have guiding and a herd effect due to the fact that it is just the "done thing". That is the only time I have ever bothered touring with a helmet.

This is the only operation I am aware of that does this and although the skiing they offer is fairly heavy duty there are plenty of other people offering similar stuff.

The idea of ESF guys bothering with it is mildly amusing to say the least.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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I don't think that is the implication at all

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Arno, I hope not.

...everyone is in a helmet, clients and guides......perhaps due to the calibre of the people they have guiding...
gave me the impression that gorilla thought that high calibre guides wear helmets, low calibre ones do not.

After all it is free

Virtually every insturctor I saw in Zell in Feb was wearing one.... I'm pretty sure it's still optional but they are leading by example.... which is not a ad think IMHO.

Many people who don't like helmets and/or don't want to wear one will always look for reasons / excuses / research to prove / justify its no better to wear one than to be without... whereas anyone who advocates helmet use / likes them/ thinks they look cool / thinks they're safe / thinks its a good example to kids will always leap the other way... its human nature.... and I don't think people from either side will change the views of too many people on the other side...

It is a personal choice and one which is not taken lightly.... its true that helmets are higher profile and more people are wearing them than ever before....(is that because snow boarders made them cool I wonder???? wink

)... but people are moving to regular or occasional helmet wearing for a whole host of reasons and will continue to do so

Until your employers (the ski school) / resort managers / government say "Its compulsorary to waer a helmet on the ski slopes" it will remain a personal choice....

FWIW I was wearing a helmet the entire week at La Grave - thought it might possibly save me the odd unpleasant clonk. But the thoughts that had Manu been wearing a helmet he would have been setting a good example had he been wearing a helmet - or was setting a bad example by not wearing one, strike me as bizarre.

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gorilla, tend to or do...?

It might make me review whether I booked there...

Help!!

Question for the instructors - should we wear helmets when teaching?

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