 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pleased I'm getting mine changed on Friday.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We are driving as far as Beaune on Friday 31st, then up to resort (Chamrousse) on 1st April, so fall outside of the timescales. Will def take chains, but am undecided about changing to winter tyres. Never had them before, and given that I live mid south coast, it's very rare we get any kind of conditions that would require them in the UK.
Would you get full winters anyway, just to be on the safe side?
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@SHAP, It's worth bearing in mind that winter tyres are not just better in snow, but cold conditions generally. Rule of thumb is that anything below +5C they'll definitely be better, anything above 15C or so they'll start to degrade much more quickly than summer ones.
I'll be out changing one car this afternoon, even though it's been over 20 degrees here in Alsace the past few days. But we're currently in an area of France where some of the villages are subject to the new rules, so no taking any chances on leaving them past the 'required' date.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
It's worth bearing in mind that winter tyres are not just better in snow, but cold conditions generally.
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This.
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@SHAP, an "all season" type tyre will easily cover legal obligation, safe driving, along with no need to change at all now. There's very few penalties in wear rate for this choice over a less capable "normal" tyre that I've found in general use.
Michelin Cross climate type being closest to "summer" performance, with other more winter orientated tread types from most manufacturers offering tread patterns that are significantly more winter focused, all in "all season" designated type. They could really be called "north-ish European general purpose" tyres in reality.
If you live in alpine environment/particularly snow prevalent area, then a reasonable decision about full winter tyres in comparison to the above would be a prudent thought process as to which type. But your circumstances are ideal for a all season type.
To make it clear, I always carry chains, regardless of tyre type fitted to the vehicle I'm driving anyway. There are times when nothing else will help you.
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Cheers guys. @ski3, you are probably right - a quality, all season tyre might well be the optimal solution for this season. Clearly with decent chains in the car too.
I think I'd feel differently if we were driving Jan/Feb, but as we are very late in the year, all season should do the job.
That said, I'll price things up, as @under a new name, and @Chaletbeauroc, also make very valid points. Very little snow in Dorset, but certainly under 15° quite often, and definitely rainy...
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| SHAP wrote: |
Cheers guys. @ski3, you are probably right - a quality, all season tyre might well be the optimal solution for this season. Clearly with decent chains in the car too.
I think I'd feel differently if we were driving Jan/Feb, but as we are very late in the year, all season should do the job.
That said, I'll price things up, as @under a new name, and @Chaletbeauroc, also make very valid points. Very little snow in Dorset, but certainly under 15° quite often, and definitely rainy... |
Dry chippy snow in january is better for grip as long as not too deep than wet slushy or frozen snow in late season
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Even if you live on the South Coast, winter tyres or all-seasons will be useful as they warm up faster, handle cooler conditions better, and are a lot less prone to aquaplaning in the wet. The two types overlap to some extent, as some all-seasons are more winter-biased than others and may even carry the three-peaks-and-snowflake winter certification. We have Michelin CrossClimate™ on our local run-around and for our performance convertible, separate summer and winter tyres. If our 2nd car wasn't a performance model, I'd probably opt for the CrossClimate™ or similar as a good compromise and leave them on all year.
If you have a performance model, the decision gets more complicated because these cars amplify the otherwise relatively narrow difference between all-seasons vs summers in summer, and winters in winter.
If I had an SUV then I'd definitely ditch the silly summer tyres that many are fitted with and replace them with SUV all-seasons. Although if they were performance SUVs like the X5M etc. then there's the same difficult decision as to whether to have a separate set of winters for the Alps (which usually means a separate set of narrower wheels as well, which is all quite an expense).
Then there's the parallel issue for owners of performance cars and many SUVs that the wheels that are fitted often can't take conventional chains, because there's not enough room behind the tyre for them to rotate without fouling the suspension and brake pipes. Yes, the chain packaging says they fit the tyre you have, but that's not the issue - it's whether there's space behind the tyre or not. Usually, this information will be in the Owners' Manual, so always worth checking.
I appreciate the problem for people who have lease cars, swap their cars every 3-4 years, only go to the Alps for a week each year or don't necessarily drive down every year etc. etc. Ditching a perfectly useful set of tyres for all-seasons, or going to the expense of adding a second set of winter tyres, possibly wheels as well is going to be a substantial extra expense and hassle. It's a difficult cost/benefit/risk calculation. So I wouldn't criticise whatever people choose in the end. But I would say that carrying chains is a 100% yes - I just don't see the point of taking an £x,000 car on a multi-£x,000 winter trip to the Alps and not renting or buying some chains: this equation is on a par with owning a house/flat and having buildings insurance - the possible consequences of not doing it are hugely disproportionate to any cost saving.
But I don't think it's a good idea to explicitly tell an individual that it'll be OK if they just take a set of chains with summer tyres. You can't give this sort of guarantee any time during the winter season because you can't know. By all means state your position and the results of your risk analysis, but I'd leave it to them to decide. If money is no object with no consideration of cost or storage, then you would have separate winter wheels and winter tyres: this is just the logical position. But in many cases cost, the practicalities of storage, and the hassle of switching are factors and then you have to make a judgement that balances all of these. But that judgement is for the individual to make - no one can make it on their behalf.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 1-11-22 17:10; edited 7 times in total
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| Quote: |
To make it clear, I always carry chains, regardless of tyre type fitted to the vehicle I'm driving anyway. There are times when nothing else will help you.
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This is the key thing (and 4WD won't help you going downhill, and if it's one of those top heavy 4WD vehicles you'd be far better off in a Ford Fiesta).
However....... I'll be driving to the Alps just once, in April, this season. My car has new tyres and I'll not be buying a set of winters. I'll have good chains, and am a very fast chain fitter. As Rob notes, the snow can be very slippy and slushy in late season. Snowheads threads for several decades have generally reckoned that 7 - 8 degrees, rather than 15, is the point that winters become more effective.
Someone will be along soon to suggest that driving to the Alps for a week without winter tyres shows gross disregard for the lives of your family and all around you. I would point out that most of the cars hurtling down the French motorways on those February weekends will not have winter tyres. This season will be the first time I've driven to the Alps without winter tyres and I'll be putting on chains (as I always have) at the first sign of lack of traction. Like anyone who understands the risks and the road safety research I'll be stopping every two hours for a rest, being especially careful in the rain, getting right OFF the road in heavy fog and leaving a big gap between me and the car in front. And not boasting of "Calais to resort in 9 hours".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@pam w,
It will be in the low 20s in early April around Grenoble where @SHAP is transiting. There is a chance of needing chains or socks on the north route into Chamrousse if it snows, less risk on the south route unless it is very early in the morning. SHAP won't need winter tires and they won't be much use around sunny Bournemouth either.
So I agree with Pam.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 1-11-22 10:34; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| .....This season will be the first time I've driven to the Alps without winter tyres and I'll be putting on chains (as I always have) at the first sign of lack of traction. Like anyone who understands the risks and the road safety research I'll be stopping every two hours for a rest, being especially careful in the rain, getting right OFF the road in heavy fog and leaving a big gap between me and the car in front. And not boasting of "Calais to resort in 9 hours"..... |
@pam w, so you'll be that person holding everyone else* up as you drive along at 25kph with or without chains when you don't actually need them, as you're overall too nervous for the conditions then 
*and actually far more risk of an accident as people take chances to overtake you so they can get on their way.
I see it so often and comment that they shouldn't be driving if they can't hack the conditions. There's safety and then there's incompetence!
And age does come into play as well, the older you get, you might be wiser but anxiety/nervousness is far more prevalent, as my OH would freely admit to!
When I bought my 4 Motion VW Transporter it came with All Season tyres which I used for a season and then was not too impressed with the traction, so I changed to snow-tyres, which again I was having issues with in conditions where I thought it should not be that bad, having to put chains on to get up my 17% hill.
In the space of four years come service I commented on this to VW and asked if they could they check all was working correctly, in fact, it was the Haldex pump failing at times.
I swapped my snow tyres to put the 4 seasons back on and they are great in the wet weather / torrential rain.
I drive out for the season this weekend, and we're actually stopping off, as I'm getting older and once in Serre Chevalier, I'll be purchasing set of snow tyres to be fully confident on the road.
The way the weather is here on the South Coast this morning with Storm Claudio you need some serious tyres 
https://www.anotherharddayattheoffice.co.uk/weathercam.html
Torrential rain and wind gusting low 60's mph.
Should be good out on the water later when things settle down a bit 
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@Weathercam, I'm with @pam w, on the use of winter tyres in April and will keep the general purpose tyres on and disagree that driving safely will constitute a accident risk as impatient drivers try to overtake in marginal conditions.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Weathercam, I have driven extensively in the Alps in winter and have sometimes stopped and helped people who are ineptly trying to put on chains, too late, in the middle of the road, and once had to put chains on top of the winter tyres on my Fiat Multipla to give myself enough traction to tow a Porsche Cayenne out of a snow drift. I don't believe I have held anybody up unreasonably being a nervous old woman. You've accused me before of not taking on the sort of physical challenges you tackle before breakfast and I readily confess to that. And of not being such a macho, tough, up for-anything driver as you are, in your Ford Machismo.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| ..... I don't believe I have held anybody up unreasonably being a nervous old woman. ......... |
That's the brilliant bit, most don't realise the carnage that they are causing behind them
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
That's the brilliant bit, most don't realise the carnage that they are causing behind them
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Yep, that's me. Like all stupid old women, I never look in my mirror and am totally unaware of what's happening behind me. It's really astonishing that I've driven cars and motorbikes on four continents without even ONE slight moving traffic accident. I suppose I've just been lucky and should be thankful for the skills of all the Ford Machismo drivers who have managed to overtake me safely, as I crawl nervously along, peering myopically over the steering wheel.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you have 4wd and proper winter tyres with plenty of tread you will rarely if ever need to use chains, it has to be very icy, steep or very deep snow before you will lose traction. My car is quite low as it's an estate not a SUV and the snow can be deep enough that the whole car is carving a furrow in the snow before it loses grip.
I still have a set of chains in the back 'just in case' but never had to use them in many trips and hopefully will remain that way. Getting cold and dirty hands fitting chains when it's dark and snowing isn't my idea of fun even when well practised at it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You can have the best car/tyre/chain combination but if there is snow plus Parisiana on the road all bets are off.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bear in mind for France winter / all season tyres must have the "Alpine Symbol" on the tyre wall from 2024
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~Details here https://savoie-route.fr/conseils-aux-usagers
Note this bit..
The winter tyres are actually the tyres labeled “M+S”, “M.S.” or “M&S” associated with the Alpine symbol. Until November 1st 2024 all tyres labeled “M+S”, “M.S.” or “M&S” without the Alpine symbol will be allowed though.
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@boredsurfin, that's a bit odd, as I understood it, M+S was pretty meaningless, and only 3MSF was applicable for inter tyres 
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Regardless of whether anyone might think that chains will not be necessary, sometimes there's no choice. A few years ago, my journey came to a halt at the bottom of the climb up to Les Arcs, at the roundabout just out of Bourg St M. As I found out later, a coach had slid somewhere further up, finishing up across the road and unable to move. Two and a half hours later, after plenty of time for heavy snow to settle on the road, the gendarmes started letting people through, but only if they had chains on, whatever the vehicle/tyres (mine was 2WD A4 estate with winters). No chains and you weren't going anywhere. Drive up the hill then took double the normal time. Finally got into resort just before midnight. Would not have wanted to tackle it without the chains.
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@under a new name, I guess that's why the Alpine Symbol has been brought into the regs. I don't think many all season tyres have it. 'My neighbours Range Rover has M+S tyres as standard but no Alpine symbol to be seen.
Pretty sure that will catch a lot of people out in 2024
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@195062, mid - December 3 years ago it was Chains from just outside Albertville heading to the resorts - no exceptions!
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| davidof wrote: |
@pam w,
It will be in the low 20s in early April around Grenoble where @SHAP is transiting. There is a chance of needing chains or socks on the north route into Chamrousse if it snows, less risk on the south route unless it is very early in the morning. SHAP won't need winter tires and they won't be much use around sunny Bournemouth either.
So I agree with Pam. |
Thanks - I am inclined to agree, 100% will have chains, but almost certainly be going the 'south' route. I think I'll get some decent all seasons which will help, and also for the sunny Bomo conditions that you, rightly, allude to.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Alastair Pink, Yes that's 2021. Must be older ones without it, my neighbours are 4 years old and dont have it.
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I'm driving my VW Caddy over to the French alps for the season. Ive got winter tyres and snow chains, but is there anything else I should do either prior to or when in resort to help 'winterise' my van? It will be parked out in the elements for the best part of 5 months - in temps and conditions very different to the UK (hopefully!). Tips much appreciated.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Alastair Pink, phew - I've just ordered the Goodyears!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Davidpem, there's been quite a few threads on here with the sort of information you're looking for, but not too sure what the best phrases are to put into the search engine on here (top left).
Apart from starting the van up and giving it a run if you're able to, then make sure you buy the low-temperature diesel before you go up into resort. And if it's an old fashioned handbrake don't use it and leave it in gear.
Plus don't park up where your vehicle will get covered in snow from the snow-plough when it clears the road, and try to keep the vehicle clear of snow as once it goes through a few freeze-thaw cycles that will give you a lot of problems, not least getting the actual snow off!
If at all possible, financially etc buy a new battery.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Weathercam, Thanks, just what I was after.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@boredsurfin, “M + S” is pretty common on e.g. Range Rovers, trucks, etc. but although it stands for mud & snow it doesn’t mean enhanced wintery grip, at all. It’s caught many a person out.
I would expect all all-seasons to have 3PMSF on them. Otherwise they’re not all season.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Davidpem wrote: |
| @Weathercam, Thanks, just what I was after. |
All good advice, plus increase the amount of anti freeze and use neat windscreen fluid, get your fuel filter changed and take a spare one with you, it's often the water that the filter catches that freezes which causes fuel issues, also youcan anti wax additives to reduce waxing point further than winter diesel, it has to go in before you get problems so you need to keep an eye out for temps forecast of below minus 15. If it does get really cold warm your engine up before driving off, it's often windchill that can be the difference between waxing or not, no fun getting a mile or so and grinding to a halt.
Of course the one we all forget is to lift up the windscreen wipers before it snows
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Davidpem, gummi pflege on all the door and window seals (stops them freezing shut), -30c screenwash, silicon wiper blades (don't freeze to the windscreen), spare wiper blades (people nick them in open car parks), lithium battery pack/jump leads, diesel fuel additive (if diesel, though winter fuel from an alpine gas station should suffice in a modern vehicle like a VW Caddy), lubricant for the door locks. Free winter check at Kwik Fit or similar for the battery and antifreeze etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@boredsurfin, “M + S” is pretty common on e.g. Range Rovers, trucks, etc. but although it stands for mud & snow it doesn’t mean enhanced wintery grip, at all. It’s caught many a person out.
I would expect all all-seasons to have 3PMSF on them. Otherwise they’re not all season. |
Michelin cross climate which are regarded as great all season tyres are marked M&S
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| robs1 wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@boredsurfin, “M + S” is pretty common on e.g. Range Rovers, trucks, etc. but although it stands for mud & snow it doesn’t mean enhanced wintery grip, at all. It’s caught many a person out.
I would expect all all-seasons to have 3PMSF on them. Otherwise they’re not all season. |
Michelin cross climate which are regarded as great all season tyres are marked M&S |
They have both 3PMSF and M&S on them, same as the vast majority of high quality all-season tyres.
The reason for the differentiation is that pure M&S tyres tend to be blocky tread patterns designed for off road use in SUVs whereas 3PMSF tyres have sipes designed for slush and water dispersion in normal cars on tarmac. 3PMSF tyres usually meet the requirements for M&S as well as 3PMSF but it doesn't always follow the other way round.
And from personal experience, M&S only tyres are good for going uphill in snow and bloody useless for stopping going downhill!
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Just disregard the 'M+S' designation because as mentioned, it really doesn't mean anything other than a chunky tread. Conversely, the 3PMSF icon certifies the tyres pass specific winter construction certification criteria. These include (a) a compound chemistry that will warm up quicker, (b) sipes that also serve to warm the tread up faster (c) sipes and a tread construction that traps snow on the surface for snow-on-snow traction and (d) a higher (than summer tyre) ratio of drainage channels to tread, to help reduce aquaplaning plus probably (e) tread channels with slight vertical curves to throw-off excessive snow.
A lot of all-seasons now have the 3PMSF certification, which is good. And the latest generation of SUV-specific all-seasons are excellent. But you do need to appreciate that for more extreme cold and/or snow, the bar for 3PMSF is not set particularly high. Winter tyres take their snow and cold capabilities that much further than 3PMSF all-seasons, giving up pretty much any summer capability in return for even better snow/slush/cold performance.
It's complicated a bit because of two factors: (a) some cold-biased all-seasons overlap with some warm-biased winters and (b) a performance vehicle amplifies the differences between all-seasons and winters in the winter. So if you have a performance model, you may find that you really can't live with the compromise of an all-season. This is all independent of the usual cost vs convenience equation i.e. is it worth changing from summer tyres for a car you're handing back after 3 years and/or which you only take to the Alps once a year or even less etc.
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| robs1 wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@boredsurfin, “M + S” is pretty common on e.g. Range Rovers, trucks, etc. but although it stands for mud & snow it doesn’t mean enhanced wintery grip, at all. It’s caught many a person out.
I would expect all all-seasons to have 3PMSF on them. Otherwise they’re not all season. |
Michelin cross climate which are regarded as great all season tyres are marked M&S |
Mine have the 3 peaks symbol on them as well. CC2s
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not forgetting the skill of the driver and how heavy their feet are, no good having the best tyres in the world if you drive like a loon
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FAQ
