 Poster: A snowHead
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Up until today i had given it very little thought as i mainly think of it as either inside or outside ski or uphill or downhill ski. Basically i always thought the inside edge was the edge on the inside of the turn i.e A in the pic below and vice versa for the outside edge. However, i was speaking to someone today saying that B would be the inside edge as it's the inside of the foot. It's not really a big deal either way but was intrigued to see what other poeple thought.
EDIT: A and B labels are jsut labelling the skis, not the indivdual edges. I'm only referring to the edges in contact with the snow in the picture.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 17-03-09 19:48; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The inside of the turn.
B could never be the "inside edge" even under the definition of "inside of the foot", that would then be the opposite edge of each ski to the edges marked as A & B.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
B would be the inside edge as it's the inside of the foot.
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Eh? How is it the inside of the foot?
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In the picture, the inside ski is on the left, the outside ski on the right. Inside and outside, when referring to a ski, is in relation to the turn.
A is pointing to the outside edge of the inside ski. B is pointing to the outside edge of the outside ski. Inside and outside, when referring to the edge of a ski, is in relation to the skier's body.
That's my usage, anyway. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As I only think about the inside edge on the 'downhill' ski, then to me the inside edge is the one on the opposite side to the B edge but on the B ski.
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laundryman,
Your logic makes most sense to me, thats how i have always thought of it. However i'm not a skier so working purely from what to me is logical rather than technical knowledge.
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depends if you are in Europe or North America...
In the EU is the ski edge which is innermost in the turn. In the USA, is the big toe side of either ski.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
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B would be the inside edge as it's the inside of the foot.
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Eh? How is it the inside of the foot? |
I guess i wasn't that clear but the B is just labelling the ski. My friend was saying that the edge of the B ski that is in contact with the snow is the inside edge because that is on the inside of the feet. I always thought that would be counted as the outside edge just becuase its on the outside of the turn.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| laundryman wrote: |
In the picture, the inside ski is on the left, the outside ski on the right. Inside and outside, when referring to a ski, is in relation to the turn.
A is pointing to the outside edge of the inside ski. B is pointing to the outside edge of the outside ski. Inside and outside, when referring to the edge of a ski, is in relation to the skier's body.
That's my usage, anyway. |
I understand the inside outside bits referring to ths ski position but i'm a little confused by what you mean by relating to the skiers body. Do you mean they're both outside edges as they're both outside of the skiers body in the turn?
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| Quote: |
Inside and outside, when referring to the edge of a ski, is in relation to the skier's body.
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yes, that confuses me too. In my mind, the inside and outside edges refer to the inside or outside of the turn. So the edge that is on the inside of the foot (ie the big toe edge, in US-speak) will switch between being an inside or outside edge at every transition. If you're carving, the inside edges are the ones in the snow, the outside edges will be up in the air. Then in a mere fraction of an inch, they swap over, and the previous outside edges become inside edges, and leave beautiful pencil thin lines in the snow.  . But what about a snowplough turn? Are the inside edges then the two "big toe" edges? And on a schuss? No inside or outside ski or edge?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My usage is the same as laundryman's - i.e. little toe = outside edge and big toe = inside edge, irrespective of the ski's angle on the snow, and that's the usage I've always heard (so quite surprised at skimottaret's EU definition). There's little point in referencing to the turn as you will never then be skiing on an 'outside' edge - so why bother with a term for it? Better then would be "engaged" and "free" or something like that. And as pam w points out, there's also then no way to name the edge if you're not turning.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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GrahamN, if your are doing one legged drills and asked to traverse on the inside edge what would you do?
or say doing charlestons or royals i have always heard that you are skiing the on inside edge
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skimottaret, charlestons and royales I'd always call the outside edge. Traversing on the inside edge would be on the big toe side of the ski - so I guess would be just on the downhill ski. Anything else seems completely ar$e about face to me. I normally clarify by saying big or little toe as well.
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You know it makes sense.
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laundryman's definition is the only one I've hear used.
Thus when I damage the edge of a ski (or the p-tex by the edge) I make sure I wear the ski on whichever foot makes it an outside edge - till I can get it mended.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| el nombre wrote: |
| midgetbiker wrote: |
| Quote: |
B would be the inside edge as it's the inside of the foot.
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Eh? How is it the inside of the foot? |
I guess i wasn't that clear but the B is just labelling the ski. My friend was saying that the edge of the B ski that is in contact with the snow is the inside edge because that is on the inside of the feet. I always thought that would be counted as the outside edge just becuase its on the outside of the turn. |
Oh, I agree with your mate then, as per my earlier post.
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Poster: A snowHead
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el nombre, stick with your first sentence, and when referring to the things labelled A or B talk about inside or outside ski - I can see very little possibility for confusion with that. As you see, when you start talking about edges things get a bit murkier - but it's pretty universal that "edge" is referring to which side of the ski, rather than which ski itself, you're trying to talk about.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm with Laundryman.
Some folks like to tune their skis with sharper angles on the inside edges. This only makes sense if 'inside' means the edges of the two skis that are closest to each other in the middle. Of course, you have to mark the skis left and right - and always wear them accordingly!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| My usage is the same as laundryman's - i.e. little toe = outside edge and big toe = inside edge, irrespective of the ski's angle on the snow, and that's the usage I've always heard (so quite surprised at skimottaret's EU definition). |
That's the definition with ice skates (i.e. inside edge the inside of your foot) so skimottaret's definition sounds a bit odd to me
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A bit like asking which is the inside of your thigh or the outside. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gulp, I was sure that inside edge = big toe edge, now I haven't a clue.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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a1 Inside ski, Inside Edge
a2 Inside ski, Outside Edge
b1 Outside ski, Inside Edge
b2 Outside ski, Outside Edge
On the inside skis, the little toe is the inside egde. On the outside ski, the little toe is the outside edge. Rolling from little toe to big toe helps me transition from turn to turn
Anyone disagree? Why?
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| nbt wrote: |
| On the inside skis, the little toe is the inside egde. On the outside ski, the little toe is the outside edge.....Anyone disagree? Why? |
Yes....of those posted so far, jbob, eng_ch, altis, snowball, GrahamN, All the gear...no idea!, (and also, from his DVDs, FastMan, but that's consistent with skimottaret's categorisation that it's NA usage) for the reasons already given  . Skiing on inside and outside edge is a completely different experience, so why on earth would you want to call them the same thing?
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I don;t understad the reasons. I iz thick, innit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| nbt wrote: |
On the inside skis, the little toe is the inside egde. On the outside ski, the little toe is the outside edge. Rolling from little toe to big toe helps me transition from turn to turn
Anyone disagree? Why? |
Lots of people seem to, but I'm not one of them.
I can't understand how it can be anything else
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OK, so
1) If referenced to the turn, no way of defining which edge is used when straight running. If inside edge = big toe then no problem
2) If snowploughing you're on both inside edges, which are both doing the same thing when straight running, and even similar things when turning gently, so call the edges the same thing
3) balancing on big toe and little toe edge is a totally different experience - hugely different effects on body position - so call them something different
4) in parallel turns you're never using the edge to the outside of the turn, so why bother with a term for it
5) it's the terminology used in ice skating (e.g.
Axel = "For a jump with counterclockwise rotation, it has a takeoff from the left forward outside edge and a landing on the right back outside edge",
Salchow = "takes off from a back inside edge and lands on the back outside edge of the opposite foot")
6) Musculature/anatomy is symmetrical with respect to body mid-line, so use one consistent set of joint and muscle movements to ski on outside/little-toe edge and a different set when skiing on inside/big-toe edge (this is essentially same reason as (3) ).
No brainer!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Very simple, as laundryman said - there would be no point in labeling edges according to the turn since the edges on the inside of the turn are always those engaged with the snow. But you do need to talk about inside and outside ski. All the instructors and ski technicians I've talked to about insideand outside edges (not that many of recent years, I admit) have meant big toe or little toe. The other way would be too confusing as the edge names would keep switching over at different points in the turn.
So far there are 7 for this view and el nombre, alex_heney, pam w and nbt (unless I understood them wrong) for the other. ,
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 18-03-09 11:16; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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To talk about edge change "a la nbt", you would always be changing from an inside edge to a (new) inside edge. Not very clear for a beginner. I've often heard the use of uphill and downhill edges in this context.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've always gone with the 'big toe - inside edge, little toe-outside edge' train of thought.....
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes, I'm with nbt, and I don't see why the fact that inside and outside keep changing need be any more confusing to a beginner than the inside and outside ski keeping changing. If you do a one footed turn to the right, on your right ski, the little toe edge surely has to be the "inside edge" (ie the one in contact with the snow). Then when you turn to the left (still on the same leg) the inside edge is the big toe side. How can you avoid swapping the terminology with each turn?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So you want terminology where you change physical edge, but they are both inside edges? So that's reduced it to an utterly useless term - irrespective of whether we're talking about beginners or not. You are now left with having to describe it as a combination of "inside ski" and "outside ski" turns, yet you're staying on a single physical ski. Ludicrous.
One more reason. When you're skating on skis, if skating uphill you'll push off from the inside edge of the back ski to the inside edge of the other foot, in our usage. When skating downhill (or on the flat) though, you push off from that inside edge, onto the outside edge of the new ski. In your convention you're moving once again onto the 'inside' edge of the new ski - despite the fact that it's the opposite edge. So you have no way of describing what's going on. So once again, you have pointless and useless terminology.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GrahamN wrote: |
So you want terminology where you change physical edge, but they are both inside edges? So that's reduced it to an utterly useless term - irrespective of whether we're talking about beginners or not. You are now left with having to describe it as a combination of "inside ski" and "outside ski" turns, yet you're staying on a single physical ski. Ludicrous.
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There is nothing remotely "ludicrous", nor "useless" about it.
It is your (and others) opinion that the term shoudl be used another way. It is my (and others) opinion that it should be used that way.
If used the way I prefer, then generally, your inside edge will be the one in contact with the snow when carving. But people who need to be talking about "inside edge" or "outside edge" will mainly be beginners or early intermediates, who will usually not be carving, and then it can be very useful to distinguish between the edge which is on the inside of the turn and the one on the outside of the turn.
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One more reason. When you're skating on skis, if skating uphill you'll push off from the inside edge of the back ski to the inside edge of the other foot, in our usage. When skating downhill (or on the flat) though, you push off from that inside edge, onto the outside edge of the new ski. In your convention you're moving once again onto the 'inside' edge of the new ski - despite the fact that it's the opposite edge. So you have no way of describing what's going on. So once again, you have pointless and useless terminology. |
And you have just done what you calim you have no way of doing.
Whatever your preference for terminology, you are simply wrong to describe the other way as either "useless" or "pointless", and that just demeans any arguments you may have.
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I'm with nbt, et al on this point.
I don't see any reason why it should be in the slightest bit confusing for a beginner.... maybe I iz thick innit like nbt,
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Quote: |
One more reason. When you're skating on skis, if skating uphill you'll push off from the inside edge of the back ski to the inside edge of the other foot, in our usage. When skating downhill (or on the flat) though, you push off from that inside edge, onto the outside edge of the new ski. In your convention you're moving once again onto the 'inside' edge of the new ski - despite the fact that it's the opposite edge. So you have no way of describing what's going on. So once again, you have pointless and useless terminology. |
And you have just done what you calim you have no way of doing. |
Sorry, how?
So, in your terms "to skate uphill, you push off from the inside edge of the back ski to the inside edge of the other foot. On the other hand, to skate downhill you you push off from that inside edge, onto the inside edge of the new ski." Erm...but this is the 'other' inside edge! How on earth is this remotely clear?
If snowploughing, which edges are you riding on? Does that change if you are straight down the fallline or veering slightly away from it? And when you transfer from a say a gliding snowplough to start a parallel turn (irrespective of whether it's carved or steered), are you now changing from what...inside edge to inside edge?
Sorry, but this is absurd.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| GrahamN, if your are doing one legged drills and asked to traverse on the inside edge what would you do? |
if you're traversing on one ski, there is only one edge you can be on (the uphill one) otherwise you will start turning and ski down the hill
i'm with GrahamN on this one, but maybe this is why people talk about the "big toe" and "little toe" edges
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 19-03-09 13:33; edited 1 time in total
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So basically it's pretty much pointless referring to inside and outside edges as there is no clear definitions. I'll stick with referring to skis. Can't go wrong with that. (I'm sure someone could prove me wrong with that as well though)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| Quote: |
One more reason. When you're skating on skis, if skating uphill you'll push off from the inside edge of the back ski to the inside edge of the other foot, in our usage. When skating downhill (or on the flat) though, you push off from that inside edge, onto the outside edge of the new ski. In your convention you're moving once again onto the 'inside' edge of the new ski - despite the fact that it's the opposite edge. So you have no way of describing what's going on. So once again, you have pointless and useless terminology. |
And you have just done what you calim you have no way of doing. |
Sorry, how?
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You described it, while claiming you had no way of doing so.
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So, in your terms "to skate uphill, you push off from the inside edge of the back ski to the inside edge of the other foot. On the other hand, to skate downhill you you push off from that inside edge, onto the inside edge of the new ski." Erm...but this is the 'other' inside edge! How on earth is this remotely clear?
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Why would you describe skating uphill in those terms? You aren't turning then, so "inside ski" or "inside edge" don't have any real meaning.
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If snowploughing, which edges are you riding on?
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If turning, the outside edge of the inside ski, and the inside edge of the outside ski
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Does that change if you are straight down the fallline or veering slightly away from it?
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Of course. The "inside edge" in this way of using it only has meaning when turning.
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And when you transfer from a say a gliding snowplough to start a parallel turn (irrespective of whether it's carved or steered), are you now changing from what...inside edge to inside edge?
Sorry, but this is absurd. |
I must admit, I find it hard to understand why anybody would have any difficulty with it, in normal usage.
You are just forcing the terminology into situatins where it isn't appropriate, in order to appear confused.
You can quite reasonably argue that you prefer the term to be used differently, but there really is not any issue with using it the way nbt and I and others prefer.
The only "issue" is going to be one of being sure that the listener is using the term the same way as the speaker, and the one thing clear from this thread is that there is no "standard" way of using the terms, and therefore we cannot assume whoever we are talking to understands it the same way.
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I throw my hat in with laundryman et al. The inside edges are inside because they are on the inside of the legs / feet. The inside ski is the one nearest the notional "centre" of the arc of the turn. To traverse on one ski you must either stand on the inside edge of the downhill (outside) ski or the outside edge of the uphill (inside) ski. Simple.
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