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Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
the question i would like to be answered is ,do basi believe there should be an age allowance in eurotest ,not the eu comission,and if so implement and demand it with the group of four.

why not stay ahead of the game .

there have been far to many people culled off by eurotest ,through expense ,injury, and risk ,

i have seen many unfair eurotests and only in the last few years have basi had a rep there. not that actually makes a real difference.
ski holidays     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Talking to a BASI trainer friend who would rather not be named there is a lot of value in carefully selecting your preferred venue for doing both the TT and ET.
Some places are much harder than others and the pass rates reflect this.

As a punter (who has zero intention, or chance, of ever getting near either) I think the ET is an absurd determinent of who is fully qualified, and as a "older" skier I think it is doubly absurd that the ET is effectivly unpassable by anybody over 40 (and please don't find the only exception in history to disprove this!).
latest report     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
stewart woodward,
Quote:

The actual question asked would also have a bearing on the answer given.


Unfortunately the info came via phone to Peter Kuvall (previous BASI CEO) which he got from Corinne Guidicelli (of the EU commission for Free Movement of Trade and Goods) both of whom have moved on from their previous posts. Sorry I can’t give any more depth to the answer.
snow conditions     
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beanie1, a slant on this would be to find out which body will be the official voice of ski instructor associations to the EU commission and who will formulate/submit an EU wide policy on mutual recognition of member states qualificaitons. will BASI side with ISIA or FEMPS in this?
snow conditions     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
This came up at a test meeting i had to be part of whilst opening in alpe du huez, one things for sure the French don't want older instructors coming through unless they can keep up with the young guys, and i think they'd prefer if over 40's weren't allowed in the test full stop but thats just the impression i get.

To be honest this needs to be publicised more so that people getting involved in BASI at lower levels (1 & 2) know that this is the case and what to expect if they continue.
snow conditions     
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^ Shocked

So is it different in other countries?

Think if I ever do it I'll wait for a Scottish one ... they seem to come round once every half decade so I might be ready by the one after next Laughing
snow report     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jjc wrote:
one things for sure the French don't want older instructors


French ski instructors, who are members of the ESF syndicate, currently have to retire at 60. A number of instructors are challenging this retirement age due to the retirement age in France being raised to 62(?)

Perhaps they will have to retake their Eurotest to keep working wink
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
stewart woodward wrote:
Perhaps they will have to retake their Eurotest to keep working

I thought that they had to requalify already and that the Challenge des Moniteurs provided one way to do that.
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I think most countries would welcome older instructors as long as they can keep up and meet the requirements of becoming a top level ski instructor. I think the test will remain the way it is (without age advantages or limits) to ensure there is a high standard and keep the qualification valuable.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
beanie1 wrote:
stewart woodward,
Quote:

The actual question asked would also have a bearing on the answer given.


Unfortunately the info came via phone to Peter Kuvall (previous BASI CEO) which he got from Corinne Guidicelli (of the EU commission for Free Movement of Trade and Goods) both of whom have moved on from their previous posts.


So BASI don't actually have anything in writing which clarifies the situation, only some 'heresay' info by a phone call??

My question therfore is;

'How have BASI implemented the Age Discrimination Act 2006 and Equality Act 2010 into all BASI courses'

Looking forward to your reply.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 9-03-11 22:02; edited 1 time in total
snow report     
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
skimottaret, BASI are likely to go with FEMPS but also try to keep a good relationship with ISIA. I was recently asked by the Irish government department for recognition of qualifications in Europe to represent Ireland at some European meetings ( yet to be organised)! Each European nation with an interest has been asked to present a representative for the meetings. I guess it's to establish a way forwards. There is talk of a European professional card for various professions ( nurses, plumbers, dentists etc). Snowsports instructors would be included in the list of professions. Question is.......will Europe use the ISIA pro card as the model or the Eurogroup?
ski holidays     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
stewart woodward wrote:

'How have BASI implemented the Age Discrimination Act 2006 and Equality Act 2010 incorported into all BASI courses'

Looking forward to your reply.


Do BASI have any obligation to implement the Acts? They are a course provider rather than an employer. Are the Acts worded to prevent discrimination by a service provider as well as an employer?
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
As the whole point of the Eurotest is just job protectionism, the main FEMPS nations' member bodies are hardly likely to be doing anything to make the Eurotest easier (unless forced to)!!

However if BASI and any other member body is going to remain relevant and be functional they will have to realign their courses and levels to ensure compliance with any EU law/act/directive.
latest report     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
snowrider wrote:
stewart woodward wrote:

'How have BASI implemented the Age Discrimination Act 2006 and Equality Act 2010 incorported into all BASI courses'

Looking forward to your reply.


Do BASI have any obligation to implement the Acts? They are a course provider rather than an employer. Are the Acts worded to prevent discrimination by a service provider as well as an employer?


From the Act;

Regulation 19 makes it unlawful for a body which confers (conferring includes renewing or extending) professional or trade qualifications on people to discriminate against a person by refusing to confer, or in the terms on which it confers, such a qualification on him, or by deliberately not granting an application by him for such a qualification, or by withdrawing (or varying the terms of) such a qualification which he holds.

This is required by the Directive because the acts of such bodies in conferring professional or trade qualifications (or refusing to do so) can affect a person’s access to employment, self-employment or vocational training within the meaning of Article 3.1 of the Directive.

“qualifications body” means any authority or body which can confer a professional or trade qualification

“professional or trade qualification” means any authorisation, qualification, recognition, registration, enrolment, approval or certification which is needed for, or facilitates engagement in, a particular profession or trade;
snow report     
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
stewart woodward, this would certainly apply but do you know if BASI formally holds the status of being the official body in the UK for conferring ski professional qualifications? I have no idea if it does and if it does whether it holds this exclusively or if other organisations are allowed to do the same in parallel.
ski holidays     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

So BASI don't actually have anything in writing which clarifies the situation, only some 'heresay' info by a phone call??

My question therfore is;

'How have BASI implemented the Age Discrimination Act 2006 and Equality Act 2010 into all BASI courses'

Looking forward to your reply.




There are no age restrictions to any BASI course other than being 18 to get the ISTD, although you can take the courses before. Im sure the courses and the ET are in full compliance with the act. How does it discriminate against age in anyway? It just sets a standard that everyone has to reach, as do all qualifications.

Where else could BASI go with this?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Does it really matter how quick you can ski, surely the quality of instruction is more important.

I have canadian qualifications and have instructed in 4 european countries over the last two seasons. No problem!
ski holidays     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
[quote="jjc"][quote]

Quote:
Im sure the courses and the ET are in full compliance with the act. How does it discriminate against age in anyway?


From the Act;

Indirect discrimination (Regulation 3) arises where:
• A applies to B a provision, criterion or practice which A applies equally to persons not of the same age group as B;

• that provision, criterion or practice puts persons of B’s age group at a particular disadvantage when compared to other

• B suffers that disadvantage

In 'laymans' terms a masters ski racer (B )is a a disadvantage to a FIS racer (A) due to his/her lack of agility/flexibility etc due to his/her age.

Quote:
Where else could BASI go with this?


BASI is a Limited company registered in the UK and is therefore subject to UK law. Perhaps BASI should comply with the Law !
ski holidays     
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So any qualification that requires any form of physical ability/fitness is in violation of the law unless it’s made easier as you get older? (This is a question rather than a statement) Surely this has to be capped at some point or you would have qualified professionals who potentially can’t meet the demands of their client?
Quote:

In 'laymans' terms a masters ski racer (B )is a a disadvantage to a FIS racer (A) due to his/her lack of agility/flexibility etc due to his/her age.


Is it really that clear cut? I’m looking for a better understanding of it rather than disagreeing.
ski holidays     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
stewart woodward, I discussed again with BASI, and they confirmed that they have been advised the Age Discrimination Act doesn't apply to education. As far as equality is concerned, they have a full equality policy.

Whether or not education should or should not be excluded is beyond the realm of BASI, and has you stated above there has been little / no case law relating to this Act, and there won't be until people start to challenge it.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 11-03-11 0:39; edited 1 time in total
snow report     
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skimottaret,
Quote:

a slant on this would be to find out which body will be the official voice of ski instructor associations to the EU commission and who will formulate/submit an EU wide policy on mutual recognition of member states qualificaitons. will BASI side with ISIA or FEMPS in this?


BASI will side with neither / both! BASI acts in members' interests to promote employment opportunities in both Europe and the rest of the world, and to side with one or the other could have a detrimental effect on employment opportunities / visas for members in one of these regions. BASI is trying to promote a win / win situation.
snow conditions     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jjc, I think my problem is that the ability to teach any given task is a very different skill set to the ability to do that task.

At 41 must I assume there is no point booking myself on one of your courses(*) as I simply won’t be able to 'hack it' and get to the required standard even if I acquire the required skills my age racked, near corpse of a body just does not have the reaction times of a younger person.

The lack of a viable alternative for those who have age/or disability issues seems to be a problem. In the case of a top athlete who is permanantly injured, or decides to come to teaching after a period of retirement would they be excluded because they could not pass the ET at that point in their lives?

Or how about a gold medal winner from the para-olympics who wants to teach other atheletes, are they to be denied the ability to gain the highest level of teaching award?

It would be interesting to know how many other professions require those who teach and coach to reach a similar standard before being licensed to teach/coach. It seems that a lot of sports are concentrating coaching on very scientific/technology based improvements to an athlete’s performance requiring little or no actual skill in the sport itself from those coaching/teaching, or am I way wide of the mark?

My guess is that BASI has to play the political ‘middle ground’ in a lot of discussion/agreements it enters into. It is likely going to have to be an individual or small group of individuals who bring a specific case to the European court that will establish the legal precedent that will undermine the ET. (or not) At this point BASI could act once there is case law to support a move.

(*) Although tongue in cheek this bit is a genuine question
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
jjc wrote:
I’m looking for a better understanding of it rather than disagreeing.


The Act aims to provide a 'level playing field' for older people rather than an easier qualification.

With regard to the eurotest this 'level playing field' would be a slightly slower pass time rather than a carte blanche 'anybody can pass'. Why do you think there is a different pass time for females?
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If the qualification (which is designed to test technique rather than strength & fitness) is pitched at such a level that age is an issue one has to wonder whether the level of the qualification is pitched at the standard...
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beanie1 wrote:
stewart woodward, I discussed again with BASI, and they confirmed that they have been advised the Age Discrimination Act doesn't apply to education.


BASI are not a school or further education provider but a qualification provider.

Many thanks for raising this, and other points, with BASI.
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kevindonkleywood,
Quote:

At 41 must I assume there is no point booking myself on one of your courses(*) as I simply won’t be able to 'hack it' and get to the required standard even if I acquire the required skills my age racked, near corpse of a body just does not have the reaction times of a younger person.




Nooooo one of the openers is 45 so he kind of proves a lot of the age discrimination to be wrong. don't get me wrong you need to be fit and in good shape, it is a test after all!

rob@rar,
Quote:

If the qualification (which is designed to test technique rather than strength & fitness) is pitched at such a level that age is an issue one has to wonder whether the level of the qualification is pitched at the standard...



even free skiing can test ones strength and fitness, it is virtually impossible to have a skiing test that does not have some relevance to these attributes. think of how knackered some people get on basi courses this must affect their performance in bumps etc... in a way the ET is fairer as its only 1 run, most people can put in the training to sustain their skill level for 1 run.
snow report     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
If you put the effort in to stay fit and strong, I don't see that age has much of an impact when it comes to training for the ET...
snow conditions     
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
jjc wrote:
even free skiing can test ones strength and fitness, it is virtually impossible to have a skiing test that does not have some relevance to these attributes.
Yes, of course that's right. I have no problem recognising that qualifications for teaching a physical activity involve and should test your capacity for that physical activity. I'm simply questioning the level at which that test is set. What level should it be at to ensure that the qualification is fit for purpose...?
ski holidays     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
would that mean that i would have to run a sub 11.50 100 metres to be able to coach sprinting ,or make the cut at a major to coach golf ?

again as i am now no longer able to teach in france istd without eurotest and thats after 6 years i am now deemed not safe because i dont meet the minimum standard for further

training according to the french ,after 20 seasons skiing ,

as opposed to a test technique and 2 week prefo ,hmmmm.

if you all remember eurotest was brought in as minimum standard based on safety ,at what point will i be safe to teach ,maybe when i have another career finishing injury?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
[quote="juliad"]If you put the effort in to stay fit and strong, I don't see that age has much of an impact when it comes to training for the ET...[/quote


how many fit and stong basi trainers over 40 have you seen skiing gs these days not many i think

thats because 40 odd got a bye and never had to
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
just one more gripe , how many of you snowboard intructors who got your right of establishment (carte pro ) are out there teaching skiing

that really is the final insult
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
sixman,
Quote:
would that mean that i would have to run a sub 11.50 100 metres to be able to coach sprinting ,or make the cut at a major to coach golf ?


I've been pondering this myself. I can't think off the top of my head of any other sports (or other teaching\coaching) where you have to be able to perform to within a percentage of the best in the world.

/Rest of post deleted. Can of worms...../
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

I can't think off the top of my head of any other sports


the one i always go back to is golf professionals who have to shoot x over par in a qualifying tournament to get their professional teaching card, i could be wrong but i seem to recall it is 4 over par which although is not within X% of world champion is a measured performance
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Quote:

would that mean that i would have to run a sub 11.50 100 metres to be able to coach sprinting ,or make the cut at a major to coach golf ?


In your examples the coach is able to be around the athlete throughout the entire session and not inhibit the progress of session in any way. That is also the same in ski "coaching" if you want to be a race coach you can get the highest level APC 4 without doing a ET.

If your a ski instructor and a client turns up and is assigned to you because your meant to be of the highest level and you cant keep up or ski the terrain the way they require it wouldnt look good for yourself or for the ski school.


Quote:

With regard to the eurotest this 'level playing field' would be a slightly slower pass time rather than a carte blanche 'anybody can pass'. Why do you think there is a different pass time for females?

Its clear cut for females as you can see the differences in percentage at the top level. The 40 year old females has no advantage over the 20 year old female.

At what age do you decide it gets easier for men? or should you have to put your case forward to see how much time allowance you should get? you could put all the "40" year olds (this seems to be the main age of concern) against a 40 year old opener and it wouldnt make any difference! We have 40+ year olds on our courses who are in great shape and very close to passing. If the attitude is right and the work has been put in on the mountain and in the gym then there is no reason not to pass. I have had 5 knee operations (im guessing more than most taking the test) so should you have to be closer to me? James weighs 20kg less than anyone else so should that be taken into account? where do you stop?

If anyone wants im more than happy to send you a free fitness program to help get you up to standard based on the results of a fitness test i will also send.
If you want any help also on some video feedback again im more than happy to help for free if you upload it or send me a link (waiting for the next knee op so have some free time) snowHead
snow conditions     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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jjc, i agree with what your saying but i think most on this board are arguing that the level of the test is pitched too high to ensure safety or the ability to ski with and demo to recreational skiers. Age handicapping may be a complication too far.

another point you raise is interesting to debate, BASI's top level of Instructor certification requires the Eurotest but none of the coaching modules do.. My understanding is that the L3 BASI coach involves super G setting and yet doesnt have a timed test to get this certification. The Home nations coaching awards dont require timed runs and these coaches will typically be working with higher level skiers and racers than an ISTD instructor would be...

beanie1, Do you know who will be representing BASI with the EU negotiations, gilleski indicates it may be FEMP's and individual member organisations. Will all the EU member state instructor associations represent themselves or will an umbrella association (FEMPS or ISIA) be the voice in mutual recognition discussions?

This is important as it is very clear from ISIA minutes that there are deep divisions regarding having the Eurotest as part of top level certs. Should ISIA be the recognised body then perhaps the ISIA card will become a minimum EU standard with a correspondingly easier/fairer to pass speed test.
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I actually agree that at times the standard is to high because an opener skis beyond his or her calibration. They do try and stop this happening though, I have been told to slow down before. I have heard they are trying to combat it further by taking an average of the two fastest.

They don’t need it in race coaching because as you progress through the sport everything becomes more intrinsic for the athlete. Once you get beyond children and entry level race coaching it becomes a lot more about managing the athletes life and creating training environments rather than demos and skiing around with them. The life of a top race coach is being a manager, taxi man, good camera man, good course setter and have an eye for detail.

When instructing you are required to demo and ski a lot more.
snow conditions     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jjc, is the ISTD Tech a fair test of a candidate's ability to ski to the required level for typical instructor duties?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
jjc, so how often (as a %) of the time will an ISTD instructor need to go at ET speed to keep up with or to demo to a client?

I don't know the number (and neither do you) but I'd put a lot of money on there being a "." in front of the number (ie less than 1%)

For a start....where and how often would it even be safe enough to go at that speed (other slope users etc)?

I absolutely understand your support for the ET, after all your livelyhood is significantly dependent on it, but it just is not the right test.
As Rob says...the Tech test...surely that is the one that measures your ability to demo and ski at the right level.
The ET just measures your ability to ski VERY FAST.
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Yes it should be, but lets just say the ET is the only part that is not subject to someones opinion. I would of thought most candidates that can pass the level 4 tech (have the physical ability) should be able to pass the ET. It would be interesting to know how many have done everything and only require the ET and how close they have been to passing it.
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jjc wrote:
Yes it should be, but lets just say the ET is the only part that is not subject to someones opinion.
Indeed, and I think it is valuable for that reason. I'm not arguing against a timed GS (or slalom) test, but it seems to me that the level at which the ET is currently set seems to be as much about limiting the number of fully qualified instructors as it is about ensuring qualified instructors can give their clients a good service.

To my way of thinking (and I've helped to develop a number of academic and vocational qualifications) a qualification structure should be used to ensure as far as is possible that the qualified person is equipped to do the job that the qualification enables them to do, and not to limit the supply of qualified people.
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