 Poster: A snowHead
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Well the proof is in the pudding, its been going for 10 years. Changes have been made, the average of fastest 2 openers being the most recent. From the times i remember in Morzine it could change the test by as little as hundredths of a second. Which shows how well the calibration is working.
Each level of basi exam provides opportunities to work.
Level 1 - UK
Level 2 - Italy, Andorra, Switzerland, Austria, New Zealand, Australia.......
ISIA - Italy, Andorra , Japan, America, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia...... at higher pay scale.
ISTD - France (I have worked in france since starting basi at level 2)
I think it needs to be recognised that there are places to work with every qualification. Its not a bleak as may people on here make out.
When it comes to allowing ISIA's to work in ski schools (in france) there is not much point, as most ISTD's work in ski schools. If ISIA's could work they'd just be paid less and take ISTD's jobs. Effectively pushing ISTD's to become independent, this would be very unfair. As ISTD's have paid more, done more and skied to the required standard to achieve their goals. Simply changing the goal posts for those that want an easier fast track to work in france would be silly. It would definitely lower the standards, no doubt about it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jjc, I still have not seen a shred of evidence that the current ET is of any benifit to the Core market for overseas instructors. And I have posted fairly detailed reasons for this previously, mostly as it covers such a limited section of the market.
You guys live the ET you seem to earn your bulk income from it and you spend a lot of time in the gates, most instructors may never do a gate run with a client in an entire season. I think James has posted some more objetive views in this respect.
Given that a lot of racing organisations are now looking for slower race speeds beacuse of unaccepatbly high injury levels, do you see this affecting ET or should we keep using the same fossil of a test forever.
As a wild guess and appologies if im wrong, time that you spent teaching the following last season
Freestyle park and pipe = 0%
Typical brit family group 1 week/season skiiers = 0%
Total beginners = 0%
Kids groups=?%
Being from a racing background I would not be entirely surprised if your shadowing/teaching hours between levels were spent entirely in racing environment and as seems fairly widespread and common within the racing fraternity to count training hours as accepable for sign off instead of teaching.
Edit: The point Im making is that in the spectrum of views posted here yours are fairly strongly polerised to suit your experience and situation.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 11-05-11 6:56; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
As a wild guess and appologies if im wrong, time that you spent teaching the following last season
Freestyle park and pipe = 0%
Typical brit family group 1 week/season skiiers = 0%
Total beginners = 0%
Kids groups=?%
Being from a racing background I would not be entirely surprised if your shadowing/teaching hours between levels were spent entirely in racing environment and as seems fairly widespread and common within the racing fraternity to count training hours as accepable for sign off instead of teaching.
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I can see where you've come from but I work all season for the ESF and take time off to open for BASI. Here's what i recon i rack up in a season of 600+ hours teaching. I took about 3 weeks off to open ET's and most were in quiet weeks at the ski school.
Freestyle and pipe = 5%
Typical Family group of any nationality = 35%
Kids = 60% some of which will be training for their Esf levels which involve skiing gates!
All of my teaching hours where teaching as in my first season i didn't have a car so just stayed in resort and worked. 5 seasons later i still spend the majority of my time in the Valmeinier ESF. There just aren't enough ET's to make a living out of it.
I believe its the coaching hours not training that count towards your 200 hours. But many people do just get them signed off without actually doing anything. Its a case who you know not what you know unfortunately.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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kevindonkleywood, Sahara sounds ok to me, i was working at hemel snow dome on monday and could of done with some warmth!
You are right that many racers will convert coaching hours. Considering I'd done no hours of any kind when i started work (i started with a level 2 and got my hours for the ISIA and ISTD) i don't see this as a massive problem. Not perfect but then what is these days. Especially when the basi way can often be very different to the french, german, Italian etc way of doing things. Having experience in snow dome could be detrimental when starting a new job for a very different employer.
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| Quote: |
When it comes to allowing ISIA's to work in ski schools (in france) there is not much point
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If you are an ISTD then there is not much point. If you are an ISIA there is a very strong point !
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If you are an ISTD then there is not much point. If you are an ISIA there is a very strong point !
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Well not really as any ISIA would just become a stagier, maybe not in name. They would just be paid far less as it would be the ISTD's, Esf etc that employ them and why pay them the same rate when you can dock them 40% and keep it. Esf would never ever employ an ISIA as anything other than a stagier so you'd only have 5 years to work with them.
It wouldn't change anything, all that would change is the test technique would become obsolete. Brit ski schools would then be able to follow the ESF's structure and make the ISTD's more cash!
Everyone is better off working else where and working towards the ISTD. Then reaping the rewards when they qualify.
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jjc james, How long are you over woking at hemmel for?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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kevindonkleywood, monday was a one off for some coaching but am currently looking into giving lessons there.
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The French would only be able to make ISIA' stagieres so the pay isnt anything exceptional. Im working in France, my parents have a place in Chatel where I work so there was a lot of sense in going to for the test technique. The local ESF do not pay stagieres all that well, though its not bad either. I work with ESI and pay wise Im pretty happy for my first job and for what was my first season with them, my pay moves up next winter to 2 of the 3 levels. They are great to work for and very fair in terms of spreading out the good skiers younger older etc and profit shares etc.
However someone with the BASI 2 or above can easily make similar money and find a good ski school just over the border in Switzerland. If you arent with the ESS its maybe easier to get more pay. But I know plenty of people making good money in Switzerland with just a BASI 2, with the way the exchange rate is going its only getting better for them aswell. If you pick the right village with a good school that attracts trips of school kids and things there's loads of work and accommodation is going to be reasonable, unlike in some of the bigger more well known resorts.
Just get somewhere good and work towards the full qualification I'd say. I know people who intended going to France but get well settled into their work elsewhere and never bother.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jjc james wrote: |
| If ISIA's could work they'd just be paid less and take ISTD's jobs. Effectively pushing ISTD's to become independent, this would be very unfair. As ISTD's have paid more, done more and skied to the required standard to achieve their goals. |
That's only one potential outturn jjc james and is based on a simplistic view that all addition instructors does is carve up what current demand their is into a larger number of instructors.
Most British-run ski schools are instructor-limited in terms of the business they can accept.
Take a ski school like BASS Morzine. They could sell their peak season lessons 2-3 times over.
But there's a more subtle thing going on. Becuase they're capacity-constrained, they can't hook up with one of the big TOs to become the the ski school you end up with if you tick the "I want lessons" option on the booking. It's not because their punters don't want instruction from a native English speaker - it's because there is no way that BASS Morzine could guarantee the resources needed to support that level of business at the moment.
Yes, I would expect ISIAs to be paid less, but I'd also expect good ski schools like BASS to set up internal training programmes along the lines of ESF and US/Canadian ski schools.
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FlyingStantoni, What happens in Morzine now ? Do the punters go to the ESF or just do without lessons during peak weeks?
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You know it makes sense.
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Remember BASS is a syndicate just like the ESF so the internal training would all come from the ISIA's pockets.
Also getting TO's and more instructors is great when its busy. Have a slim week and you have to spread the work between more instructors, hence less work.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jjc james wrote: |
When it comes to allowing ISIA's to work in ski schools (in france) there is not much point, as most ISTD's work in ski schools. If ISIA's could work they'd just be paid less and take ISTD's jobs. Effectively pushing ISTD's to become independent, this would be very unfair. As ISTD's have paid more, done more and skied to the required standard to achieve their goals. |
Sorry to jump on this but I'd only just focused on it as a result of Stantoni's post. So is this an explicit acknowledgement that it's all about job protection? It's notable in your statement that there is nothing about the customer experience. Surely the quality of the experience the customers have is what drives revenue and accordingly reward, which has nothing directly to do with Instructor grade. Obviously if ISTDs are so much higher standard this should shine through in their lessons hence more repeat bookings/referrals/private requests.
While I think the N American instructor model has some fairly obvious flaws, not least the soft soaping of clients who really aren't improving by being told how awesome they are all the time, it strikes me that ski schools have the right sort of pyramid. Lots of enthusiastic low level instructors to handle the basics, a fair number of mid-level for the improvers and refreshers and a limited number of high-level for the more demanding clients.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
So is this an explicit acknowledgement that it's all about job protection?
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15 pages and you just worked that out  seriously though Yes it is all about job protection
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, I think this
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the quality of the experience the customers have
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Is what needs to be protected against this
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fairly obvious flaws, not least the soft soaping of clients who really aren't improving by being told how awesome they are all the time
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Its possible to do in the FEMPS nations because there is enough of these.
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number of high-level for the more demanding clients.
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That can work accross the whole client base. Which as a result improves
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the quality of the experience the customers have
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at every level
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's notable in your statement that there is nothing about the customer experience.
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If a ski school can employ a Level 1 for £10 or a ISTD for £50 who would they rather employ? It's all about $$$ not quality of customers experience. Hence why ski schools like to have a good number of lower qualified instructors or in france stagiers to keep profit margins up.
In france the stagiers are supported by the full certs and that provides a much safer environment for clients. Where as other nations do not have a structure that supports lower level instructors, they are simply let loose.
Its not so much about job protection but Qualification Protection. Otherwise they could just make the ISIA the top level and call it a day. Personally after doing ISIA Alpine/Tele and an ISTD i think the level of the ISIA is to low for it to be the highest level.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jjc james wrote: |
Where as other nations do not have a structure that supports lower level instructors, they are simply let loose.
Personally after doing ISIA Alpine/Tele and an ISTD i think the level of the ISIA is to low for it to be the highest level. |
1 I don't think this can possibly be true but maybe it is more dependent on the individual ski school/resort. Take Whistler. Every morning before lineup IIRC instructors at all levels have the opportunity to take a session with one of the top trainers in the school then if say they are teaching lowish level adults they have prescribed zones of the mountain and routes they are expected to teach on. I think trainers periodically swing by for observation too. Maybe a bit "corporate" but most guests don't spot it and have a good time.
2 I'm sure this could be true and I have sympathy for the view that you don't want your profession diluting by hacks who've got through the exams "by the numbers" without ever having developed deep teaching skills etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There is a need for Top Certs as independent gurus or ski school directors but a key point is that unless you are a top cert in Europe you are effectively a trainee and very restricted in what you can do and where you can work.
fatbob, FYI i hear that around only 3% of the Canadian instructors are L4's. this ties up roughly with BASI and it should be very tough to get the highest level but in Canada L3's aren't viewed as trainees or needing lots of supervision...
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fatbob, you do realise that in NA (and other countries) the bean counters have very strongly 'suggested' in a large number of ski schools that the full cert experienced instructor numbers be reduced(because you CAN use a Level 1 or level 0 at pittance wage - $7 an hour and you have to buy the jacket sound good?)...
I know of instructors who are simply not rehired - and it has been going on for a while and has resulted in a big decrease in number of full certs... which drastically reduces the customer experience - unless you are clever and cover up with the "blow smoke up butt" technique...
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There is a need for Top Certs as independent gurus or ski school directors
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No, Top certs shouldn't have to be directors or independent, as the qualification has not been designed with this in mind. There is the option to be independent and also the option to work in a syndicate or be employed. If the ISTD was designed to be for independents and directors there would be content in the courses to address this, there is none. Its simply an option people can take on their own.
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key point is that unless you are a top cert in Europe you are effectively a trainee and very restricted in what you can do and where you can work.
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A bit over the top plenty of instructors work on an ISIA and some never bother going further as they like what they have. I may be wrong here but is Warren Smith not an ISIA?
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jjc, No offence taken and hopefully none given 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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jjc james, you should have a look at what the ISIA pyramid structure says about that... And please note that BASI is a member of the ISIA and is not a member of FEMP's and has agreed to and signed up to the pyramid structure.
http://www.isiaski.org/en/2/index.html for details
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Warren Smith not an ISIA?
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I know he employs ISIA as the business opperates in Switzerland. Pretty sweet set up if you are an ISIA, as he offers good training to.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 11-05-11 17:39; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, which bit are you talking about could you cut and paste it?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jjc james, from the ISIA notes
The steps of the pyramid are marked in blue, red and black in line with the internationally standardised level of difficulty of the pistes. ISIA wants to ensure that no country is put at a disadvantage. Each country can organise its snow sports instructors' training itself. The blue area includes candidates, basic level instructors, kids' instructors, substitutes and also association teachers, namely "Übungsleiter" and "Lehrwarte" if they are allowed to work in ski schools. This level is solely determined by the country of origin.
The red area covers national training, whether this is organised by trade organizations or on a regional or national basis. However, they have to be in line with the ISIA minimum standard in order to receive the ISIA stamp (badge). National instructors provide quality and usually work in a ski school of their home country. They receive their ISIA stamp (badge), which enables them to work in another country in a local ski school under the supervision of this ski school. This does not give them any right to their titles being equal to those in the host country. Many of our members are satisfied when they reach the red level of training. For various reasons, they might not want to offer higher qualifications in their training programme. In such cases, the red area includes the highest national qualification level. However, it is our goal to enable all nations to train qualified professional instructors.
The top of the pyramid is marked in black and includes the most highly qualified instructors. They are able to work in all different areas and ISIA's European platform assures them complete mobility. In addition to their national training, top instructors have to pass further training modules and tests, such as a timed giant slalom according to Eurotest. Furthermore, they must complete safety training on danger in the mountains, including backcountry, and using an avalanche victim search device. They satisfy the higher ISIA minimum standard to attain the ISIA card allowing them to work independently on a world-wide basis.
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The top of the pyramid is marked in black and includes the most highly qualified instructors. They are able to work in all different areas and ISIA's European platform assures them complete mobility. In addition to their national training, top instructors have to pass further training modules and tests, such as a timed giant slalom according to Eurotest. Furthermore, they must complete safety training on danger in the mountains, including backcountry, and using an avalanche victim search device. They satisfy the higher ISIA minimum standard to attain the ISIA card allowing them to work independently on a world-wide basis.
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I see that as saying they have the capability to be independent not that they should be. After all why risk it independently when you can earn 55+ euro and hour at a ski school?
If they wanted card holders to be independents and directing schools then they would add training for this. Currently there is no business, law, insurance, etc taught to ISTD's, are they expected to be business wizards straight from the womb?
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You know it makes sense.
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little tiger, Yep I realise that in NA ski instructor is not really a career role for most and even those that are often use it as a complement to their main income generating activity (including IME a large number of real estate pimps). But market dynamics are also very different - large need for weekend instructors to cope with volume of lessons, relatively low mid-week demand plus plenty of willing volunteers effectively teaching for a free pass & perks + beer money.
I can totally see why the French are keen to avoid this model but it is a "free market" model. Plus I'm not sure that customer experience (even without all these ISTDs who are so essential to setting the standard) is that much worse than Europe, indeed I think on sHs we generally get very positive reviews of the learning experience especially for kids when compared to ESF.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Now we're getting somewhere. I put a gentle hint about this in one of my posts pages ago. There has been no cogent justification for the ET in its current form on this thread because none exists. It's all about job protectionism and high wages in France. But this is the case for the L4 hegemony/Euro pro cartel generally. In what other occupation is there such a gross restriction (to a only a few percent!) on the numbers of practitioners who can work independently, work where they like etc. Even in more established and formal professions where there exists a clear and direct public interest to regulate standards such a situation is unparalleled! Lets be honest - of all the ski school lessons that happen, it's only a tiny percentage that require the skiing standard of a L4 qualified instructor. ISIA is plenty high enough a ski level for the vast majority of clients. And if it were actually their experience and teaching skills at ISIA level that were the concern, well, then the ET wouldn't be a timed GS race at all but an advanced pedagogy module!
On a separate note, to misquote jjc james:
| jjc james wrote: |
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It's notable in your statement that there is nothing about the customer experience.
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If a customer can employ a Level 1 for £10 or a ISTD for £50 who would they rather employ? It's all about $$$ not quality of customers experience.
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The market should decide the premium a customer is prepared to pay for a higher qualified instructor. It shouldn't be rigged to keep prices high by limiting the supply of instructors by setting an inordinately high standard of skiing, well beyond what is required in the ordinary case to do the job of teaching to a reasonable standard what is after all a recreational activity.
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Poster: A snowHead
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There has been no cogent justification for the ET in its current form on this thread because none exists
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Can I ask you the same questions as i did kevindonkleywood, I really cant see where your coming from so this might help add some substance to these statements and for me to understand your point of view better.
Why does the ET have no relevance to day to day skiing? What is so different between what you do in a gs turn and what you do in a general piste performance long turn? Why won’t a client benefit more from a ISTD than a ISIA standard instructor at every level? What is a better non subjective test of someone’s skiing ability? Why shouldn’t instructors be expected to be able to make a clean turn and do more than traverse a bumps run? Why shouldn’t we expect a reasonable level when so many achieve it across Europe (I assume your reference to a small % was for British instructors)? Why should we lower the standard for in the grand scheme of things a relatively small group of instructors? What will it achieve for the clients having less qualified and less trained instructors? Why do the ISIA also suggest a GS test if it is so irrelevant to the job? Finally what is the standard of an ISIA and why is it appropriate across the board, why not level 2?
You say its all about job protectionism and high wages in France but is it not also the £££ that’s the real reason for all these complaints? As it has been mentioned many times there is ample opportunity to work elsewhere as a ski instructor with an ISIA. If France etc have a system that works and is sustainable whilst maintaining such a high standard then why should we expect them to change? Their current system looks after both the instructor (they can have a career) and the client (they recieve quality lessons)
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The market should decide the premium a customer is prepared to pay for a higher qualified instructor.
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We all know this wont happen, the ski school will just make a bigger margin on their instructors. The only people to benefit are the ski schools and the instructors on retirement plans, gap years or doing it as a hobby, who dont need a stable income. It certainly wont help the client or anyone who had spent large sums of cash training to do the job. The price of everything else in resort dictates the high price of lessons.
Just one other thing i have been thinking and i might be wrong  I know a fair few in the BASI system ranging from level 2 to ISIA who i cant guarentee but can say are very likely to become ISTD's. There is enough to effectively increase the current number of ISTDS by 20% shortly and i am sure there are more. Is the current number not just a reflection of the fact you cant expect success from a system straight away? It takes time to get through the system and i might be wrong but i expect to see the numbers increase significantly over the next few years on the basis we have a lot of ISIA.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 12-05-11 1:13; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jjc wrote: |
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The market should decide the premium a customer is prepared to pay for a higher qualified instructor.
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We all know this wont happen, the ski school will just make a bigger margin on their instructors. . |
Why not? If ISTD is instrinsically more useful to customers the very least ISTD holders ought to be able to do is justify customers should pay more for them. Not much different to having a premium brand for ski instructors, for many the Ford will do but there should be enough people willing to pay for the Aston Martin?
If ISTDs don't have this confidence then isn't it saying the market doesn't really recognise the need for higher qualifications and in fact if someone could set up the Ryanair of ski instruction they'd clean up?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ps pedagogy, what a fantastic word! i shall use it more often
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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fatbob, 98% percent of people who book lessons have no idea that there are multiple levels of instructors, they just book a ski lesson... to the other 2% qualifications dont matter but buzz does..Instructor X is an ex olympian, Y is an instructor trainer, Z is a freestyle champion ... that is what customers relate to.... not that you are an ISIA or Internationlly Sexually Transmitted Desease
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It takes time to get through the system and i might be wrong but i expect to see the numbers increase significantly over the next few years on the basis we have a lot of ISIA.
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I assume youre're referring to numbers of BASI L3s and L4s - in which case the number of BASI Alpine L3 ISIAs is actually pretty low, as of last autumn numbers were:
Alpine Level 1 574
SSS/BASI Alpine Level 1 5
Alpine UK Adavanced Instructor 13
Alpine Level 2 2066
Alpine Ski Teacher 95
Alpine Level 3 ISIA 145
Alpine National Ski Teacher 65
Level 4 ISTD 298
TOTAL ALPINE 3261
However, I totally agree with you that the number of ISTDs is likely to increase over the next few years as more work their way through the system.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
the market doesn't really recognise the need for higher qualifications and in fact if someone could set up the Ryanair of ski instruction they'd clean up?
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Exactly. If you employ a level 2 on the basis they are 30 pound an hour cheaper and as a result pass on a 20 pound saving to your customer your still 10 pound better off. The added bonus is they are likely to require more hours because their tuition is substandard. The client is happily deceived because they don’t know any better and everyone’s a winner....or are they
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 12-05-11 1:10; edited 1 time in total
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beanie1, i thought ther were 6000 ish members...
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beanie1, Some useful numbers, thanks
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, members yes, this is just numbers of those with alpine qualifications. It's out of date but gives you a rough idea.
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beanie1, Do you know how many are working through their ISIA?
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FAQ
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