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Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

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The customers unwittingly getting poor value for money and are not getting the pleasure from learning to ski as well as they could. You may as well argue what did the bankers do wrong - unfortunately unregulated markets are sub-optimal as the consumer does not have suffecient knowledge when they purchase services.
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TTT, it's only ski instruction. They'll live with the hypothetical chance that they could have carved a cleaner turn; I suspect the overall lesson experience is at least as important as shades of outcome for the average skier. Most professions governed by a narrow group of practitioners end up run in their own interests rather than those of customers anyway. People will rely on mates if the field is closed and prices rise - and that often ends badly.
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rob@rar wrote:
idkwia wrote:
I am off to Austria next week. No British Ski Schools there, wonder why that is?
Do you know why? Genuine question, I have no idea.



I have asked this question a few times and the consensus of opinion is that the local ski school and the town/village itself won't allow it to happen. The French may make it pretty hard for ski instructors to work but they do not restrict the opening of foreign ski schools as long as it instructors are adequately qualified. Whereas in Austria, to my knowledge, there are no foreign ski schools. If we are talking about EU law with regards to France I think the position regarding Austria is far more serious and damaging to British qualified instructors.

Someone earlier said that France was the biggest skiing market in Europe. I am not sure that is true, maybe from a British sense it is, but even then Austria is not far behind. The fact that they do not allow the opening of foreign ski schools is a serious issue I feel. Anybody else have similar views?
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idkwia, it certainly sounds concerning. It would be interesting to learn of particular cases where people have tried.
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I know of a school offering Snowboard Instructor Training over there. Not BASI though, CSIA L1 & L2.
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The ISIA technical test has been run a couple times this year in Europe, In Sweden and last week in Norway. From what I heard the Norwegian test had around a 20% pass rate and while slightly easier than the Eurotest still a demanding test. The motion to add an Age Allowance to the Technical test will be tabled at the ISIA Congress next month in Finland. There is support from several nations and if the motion passes the plan is to trial an age handicap method for this upcoming season.

Be interesting to see how BASI vote on this motion Wink My hope is that if this gets implemented on an Internationally recognised test that a strong precedent will be set and the Eurotest may need to follow suit but who knows....
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skimottaret, if you were to pass this & irrespective of the result of Simon's case, it would be really interesting to see what response the French would give to a Carte Pro declaration. Very difficult to say there was a "substantial difference".

Obviously Simon's case might render even that irrelevant.
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abd, yes indeedy.... but..... what I heard was that the ISIA was barred from EU negotiations by the French and that the EU would not entertain a global standard given that a European one already exists in the EU and this would form the minimum standard.
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hmm, but (as you know) the Carte Pro declaration is to the French authorities, not the EU, so as I understand it, irrespective of the source of your qualification, they still need to demonstrate a "substantial difference". I think they'd struggle to do that if you had an ISIA speed test pass.
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You are probably right at this point in time but if the MoU becomes law I don't think non EU tests will have any bearing on obtaining a Professional Passport which will contain the EMS and ET.
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agreed, but that seems a bit of a way off yet
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not so sure... The MoU was extended to June this year and from the EGM in Morzine it was stated that there were enough countries in favour to vote it into law (I think they need 9) but until there is a formal vote who knows if it will go through.
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So whilst it's not very interesting news regarding the eurotest, some people might be interested to know that I am going to start training for it this year. Probably do some of the L4 courses as well, though it seems the ET is the main hurdle, so focusing on that to start. Anyone else giving it a go this season?

For those that have passed it, how long have you trained for before passing? I don't really have any racing background, so this could be a tough season
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
jimmer, good luck with that; keep us informed. snowHead
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
jimmer, nice one!

I will be training with a view to taking the ADH one to see what it is like (once I get rid of a lower back issue I have had since April!)

Training in Stubai for ca. 5 weeks before ADH from beginning November. I have never raced either, but looking forward to the challenge.

Where are you going to train for it?
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Touchguru, there's no stopping you!
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jimmer, might be an idea to start a new thread for ET / L4 training... this one is really for politics technical aspects of the ET... Happy to contribute if I can as if I can get my times down in training may have another pop at it Toofy Grin
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Just started a new thread, wouldn't want this one to move off topic Wink
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...and, swapped in from the L3 thread as I think it fits here:

rob@rar wrote:
I think there is a very slim chance that an age allowance might be a compromise position, but the allowance will be so small that it makes very little difference. Of course, there's always the strong possibility that the French negotiators around the table in Brussels (i.e. the head of the ESF union) will simply say "non".


I'd be pleased to see even a small % adjustment for age. It should never be so different that middle aged ISIA skiers (i.e. myself) could pass without significant training but for example 3% onto the multiplier, increasing the pass time by approx 1.5s, would make the necessary training commitment a lot more feasible. As it stands I'm concerned the pass level I witnessed last Dec at AdH may be beyond my athletic capacity now.
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balernoStu, From the USA GS racing NASTAR handicap chart a reduction of 0.3% (males) and 0.5% (females) for those over 35 years old has been documented, seems fair and ties up with other age decay information I have reviewed. The Swedes used 0.5% during trial ISIA tests and my own research indicated 0.16% per year over 35 looking at other sports. so a 45 year old could get 3% and a 55 year the same as the Women's allowance...
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skimottaret wrote:
balernoStu, From the USA GS racing NASTAR handicap chart a reduction of 0.3% (males) and 0.5% (females) for those over 35 years old has been documented, seems fair and ties up with other age decay information I have reviewed. The Swedes used 0.5% during trial ISIA tests and my own research indicated 0.16% per year over 35 looking at other sports. so a 45 year old could get 3% and a 55 year the same as the Women's allowance...


Yes the allowance used in Sweden looks a little generous!
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Saw this today.
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@rjs

They leave at the end of the year along with Austria & Italy.
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after 7 years of a "pilot programme" for the MoU to turn into a Delegated Act by the EU we have ended up with the current Eurotest and EMS which will become the common tests that dictate what you need if you wish to establish yourself as an instructor in another EU country..

the changes from the MoU are that the pass times have increased from 18% men and 24% women to 19 and 25.. No addition of any age or disability allowances. The openers will go a bit quicker and we will end up with the same results...

the act also says that for countries like the UK where skiing isn't a regulated profession we can still use the "For ski instructors who are not eligible to participate in the CTT or who have not passed the CTT, the general framework for recognition of their qualifications under Directive 2005/36/EC would continue to apply." so anyone not passing the new test can still work but have the same paperwork declaration hassles as current.

https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/34445?fbclid=IwAR1Ghns0kkAqrKHCOzGRec0Rb78Xs84DZLa3yphpmgbl178kf3CffhhwbDY
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skimottaret wrote:
....the changes from the MoU are that the pass times have increased from 18% men and 24% women to 19 and 25.. No addition of any age or disability allowances. The openers will go a bit quicker and we will end up with the same results...

Surely this is sexual discrimination allowing women an easier standard?
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@spyderjon, yup , my view as well and after 10 years of trying to effect change we ended up full circle back to the status quo. But hey a 1% addition is a compromise that will make it all fair and equitable Wink
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@skimottaret, out of interest, are the women up against a female who has set the pace or a man? (not going to get into a sexist debate, just interested)
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Quote:

Surely this is sexual discrimination allowing women an easier standard?


In the literal sense you are right, in that there is different standard being applied depending on someone's sex, but I don't think it would be sensible to class this as sexual discrimination in the pejorative sense. It means that men and women face (in theory) the same difficulty in achieving the standard. If it were removed there would be very few women who could ever achieve it.

Perhaps a better system would be to have both male and female openers, and all candidates have to achieve the same percentage increment of the opener who is the same sex as they are.

However the apparently harder questions are the ones that @skimottaret highlights: why not also take into account the effects of age as well as gender?

And how can a GS speed test in any way determine how safe or secure someone is to teach skiing?

These are hard to answer as they highlight the inconsistencies in the justification for the Eurotest: it isn't really anything to do with safety and security, and is nothing to do with ability to teach skiing.
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@holidayloverxx, there are/have been a couple of women openers (pacesetters). All openers are calibrated against the current male GS world champion and given a coefficient. when they open a Eurotest each openers time is adjusted by their individual coefficient to try to simulate what the current world champion would ski the course. Some openers are old and slow (or are girls Wink ) and can have a maximum coefficient of up to .87. these people would typically be 13% slower than Marcel Hirscher if they raced against him on the same course. three to 5 openers typically run the course, their times are adjusted for their coefficient and they take the average of the fastest two who make it down the course. They then add 18% for male competitors and 24% for women as the pass time..

IME the girls get a slight break compared to the lads as the extra 6% was granted to get more women into instruction which is a good thing.. Michala Shiffren isn't 6% slower than Hirscher.. But a one armed or legged person isn't granted any allowance...
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kieranm wrote:

In the literal sense you are right, in that there is different standard being applied depending on someone's sex, but I don't think it would be sensible to class this as sexual discrimination in the pejorative sense. It means that men and women face (in theory) the same difficulty in achieving the standard. If it were removed there would be very few women who could ever achieve it.

Perhaps a better system would be to have both male and female openers, and all candidates have to achieve the same percentage increment of the opener who is the same sex as they are.

However the apparently harder questions are the ones that @skimottaret highlights: why not also take into account the effects of age as well as gender?

And how can a GS speed test in any way determine how safe or secure someone is to teach skiing?

These are hard to answer as they highlight the inconsistencies in the justification for the Eurotest: it isn't really anything to do with safety and security, and is nothing to do with ability to teach skiing.


Good points, especially the age criteria which you say, is inconsistent.

As a total aside I was talking to a colleague and she told me her daughter had done the Eurotest the previous weekend, and passed. I didn't get the daughter's exact age but she's off to Uni so she must have been 18 or 19. I was a bit surprised and checked that she meant the Eurotest and not the fleche or something. No it is the Eurotest, her daughter is in the local ski club and all the kids do it as young adults if they have the level, it is seen as a natural conclusion. Her other daughter just failed the Test Technique though.

So looking at it from an Alpine viewpoint it is not seen as such a big barrier as it maybe is in other countries but a natural part of local skiers progression. The French also love competitions as they are "in theory" non discriminatory, anyone can pitch up and pass, or fail. It chimes with the idea of equality of opportunity. The reality is that the concours favour people who have been trained specifically for them, rather than just having natural ability. Same for teachers exams, civil service exams etc.
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skimottaret wrote:

IME the girls get a slight break compared to the lads as the extra 6% was granted to get more women into instruction which is a good thing.. Michala Shiffren isn't 6% slower than Hirscher.. But a one armed or legged person isn't granted any allowance...


Just think, if the French were as potty as the Brits you could just self identify as female and get an extra 6% !
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if anyone is interested here is a proposal made to the ISIA on applying an age allowance to the speed test. BASI voted against it along with FR and AU and it never went further

http://www.skimottaret.com/resources/Eurotest-Age-Allowance-27Mar2015.pdf
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@skimottaret, did BASI explain why they voted against it?
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@kitenski, I did speak with the then CEO and he said that the representative who was at the meeting was the SnowBoard director and he didn't understand what he was voting for.

The Chairman at the time when presented with a group letter from 25 members in 2011 said "We do not agree that physical performance necessarily decreases with age"
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@skimottaret, that's quite a blinkered and incorrect view as I'm sure you know. Perhaps asking them why no 50 year old has won any major cycling or World Cup skiing event would be an interesting point!
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@kitenski, that Chairman is now gone but his legacy remains link to the full letter http://www.skimottaret.com/resources/Scott-Pleva-Age-Discrimination-lttr-Dec-12-2011.pdf
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skimottaret wrote:
@kitenski, I did speak with the then CEO and he said that the representative who was at the meeting was the SnowBoard director and he didn't understand what he was voting for.


That's a pretty depressing sentence. I wonder if that's representative as to how BASI go about their day to day business.
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skimottaret wrote:
the act also says that for countries like the UK where skiing isn't a regulated profession we can still use the "For ski instructors who are not eligible to participate in the CTT or who have not passed the CTT, the general framework for recognition of their qualifications under Directive 2005/36/EC would continue to apply." so anyone not passing the new test can still work but have the same paperwork declaration hassles as current.

https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/34445?fbclid=IwAR1Ghns0kkAqrKHCOzGRec0Rb78Xs84DZLa3yphpmgbl178kf3CffhhwbDY



Irritating, especially in an EU context.
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Quote:


Good points, especially the age criteria which you say, is inconsistent.

As a total aside I was talking to a colleague and she told me her daughter had done the Eurotest the previous weekend, and passed. I didn't get the daughter's exact age but she's off to Uni so she must have been 18 or 19. I was a bit surprised and checked that she meant the Eurotest and not the fleche or something. No it is the Eurotest, her daughter is in the local ski club and all the kids do it as young adults if they have the level, it is seen as a natural conclusion. Her other daughter just failed the Test Technique though.

So looking at it from an Alpine viewpoint it is not seen as such a big barrier as it maybe is in other countries but a natural part of local skiers progression. The French also love competitions as they are "in theory" non discriminatory, anyone can pitch up and pass, or fail. It chimes with the idea of equality of opportunity. The reality is that the concours favour people who have been trained specifically for them, rather than just having natural ability. Same for teachers exams, civil service exams etc.


Sense.

Eurotest is easy if you're skiing at the standard of a professional instructor. Italian test by far the worst. It's a very small group that take such issue with it

Instead of complaining and arguing for the bar to be lowered, why can't trainee instructors see all the training that goes into preparing to take the Eurotest as being a great opportunity, and only a positive thing for their future career
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spyderjon wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
....the changes from the MoU are that the pass times have increased from 18% men and 24% women to 19 and 25.. No addition of any age or disability allowances. The openers will go a bit quicker and we will end up with the same results...

Surely this is sexual discrimination allowing women an easier standard?


No. You put any of the best female racers - Shiffrin, Vonn etc into the mens events and they would be far down the results. The exemption for women is 85 points to mens 100
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