Poster: A snowHead
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This maybe self evident, but i hope that it can help you understand my view on the equipment choices you make. I believe in quality and the strength of human endeavor to accomplish it's goals, therefore no equipment choice should be viewed by the marketing but by value of product, lifespan and value for money there in.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, "this is practically everyone in the world"...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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fatbob, Yep, Nordica Enforcers are hand built, i've built a pair. Edit i built one, they are paired up after.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, chart puts halo skis in Advanced non expert cat. Intentional?
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comprex, Does anyone understand what you are on about?
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fatbob, Or do you mean hand built means using no machines at all, just some fatbob, layering up the skis and then sitting on them for hours waiting for the glue to dry.
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Hand built or hand assembled? Pre-milled cores or not? Hand built means a little bit more than a bloke picking parts out of a bin and laying them up to me, after all most cars are hand assembled to a certain degree without the labour intensity of say a Morgan.
"chart puts halo skis in Advanced non expert cat"
Cool next year's skis feature bio enhanced space marines zapping aliens?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, by your definition any top name gear you hear about or see massively marketed, i.e. ski with glowing halo, aura, mystique around it, will by definition be meant for other than experts. Pick one b5, Volkl Supersport, Nordica Dobermann, Rossi Squad, any "top" level name is not actually "top". Therefore no expert can possibly offer an opinion on it.
Was all of that intentional?
fatbob, if I mean (RM) or (TM) or (C), I will say (RM) or (TM) or (C). (RM)(TM)(C)
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Sport? Leisure pursuit? How does one tell?
Xplain pls, thankyou.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There are people satisfied with not being a good skier but enjoy the whole holiday experience as a whole. (Recreational) there are others that treat it very much as a sport and train and prepare for it as any sports person would. That said, the two are not mutually exclusive, but they are to be considered different.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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comprex, Awesome, clear as mud.
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You know it makes sense.
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The conclusion here is to demonstrate that equipment aimed at beginners skiers has a quality brief attached, i personally disagree with this and learned to ski on expert level kit without being hindered. In turn i kept my equipment for a longer period of time and as a result got great value for money.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar,
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Poster: A snowHead
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
The conclusion here is to demonstrate that equipment aimed at beginners skiers has a quality brief attached, i personally disagree with this and learned to ski on expert level kit without being hindered. In turn i kept my equipment for a longer period of time and as a result got great value for money. |
Isn't that the same approach used by manufacturers in many different areas?
While there will always be exceptions, I'd say that for many learners (especially if they are not very athletic or lack a bit of confidence) starrting them off on kit which requires a high level of skill or commitment to get the best out of it will put them off and might make skill development more difficult. I know when I first tried a race department ski it completely flummoxed me, and I'm just glad I hadn't been put on those things when I was a relatively inexperienced.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, Maybe my point there in, it may have been a factor to you but was of no importance to me, skis were just skis, too many factors at work during the beginner phase to blame a ski, race stock; noodle or otherwise. The point again being the costs are the principal factor, if as many concessions were made to truely make a ski easy for a beginner other better and more expensive materials could be used to help this kind of person, as it is, it is assumed that the ski will be kept for less time and therefore the quality can be comprimised as such to accommodate this kind of thinking. I don't agree or disagree with it on any particular level, just trying to add something to these repetative, 'Which Ski for Me' threads.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
rob@rar, Maybe my point there in, it may have been a factor to you but was of no importance to me, |
Yes, I think that learners come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, aptitudes, aspirations and abilities. For some people putting them on kit designed for more able skiers will accelerate their learning, for other people it will make life much more difficult. I can't see how you can provide for level of personalised learning in the current framework that most ski schools/rental outlets operate in.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, part of my point was that rental designations (beginner intermediate advanced expert) -do-not-match- SZK's designations.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, I think that shape and the condition of skis at beginner level is of most importance, by shape i don't mean width, i stand firm on my width of ski, width of ski boot principle.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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comprex, Then they are more than welcome to use it to realign themselves with my way of thinking.
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comprex wrote: |
rob@rar, part of my point was that rental designations (beginner intermediate advanced expert) -do-not-match- SZK's designations. |
OK, I think I've got that. Isn't that because the business priority of manufacturers (ie make a lot of money) isn't the same as those who work in ski instruction (which is to get repeat business by helping clients have fun and get better), or even those who work in retail but have an altruistic streak?
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
i stand firm on my width of ski, width of ski boot principle. |
Is that the ski should be as fat as the widest part of the boot? If that's the case we'll just have to disagree with good grace
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, Not that it should be, but that less or more than the the width of the boot can be significant.
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rob@rar, instruction kinda straddles the line IMO, must feed some part of the client's ego and self image or the fun and money disappear. How many instructors know gear AND can handle client egos like that?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
rob@rar, Not that it should be, but that less or more than the the width of the boot can be significant. |
OK, on that we can agree. Significantly less than ski boot width can be significantly better for you if you ski mostly on piste...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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comprex wrote: |
How many instructors know gear AND can handle client egos like that? |
I know plenty who can plump an ego (and a few who can deflate it rapidly), but I don't think I know many who are particularly interested in kit (at least not to the same extent as a few of the discussions around here).
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See it like this if you will, a ski say of 82mm against a ski of say 95mm will yeld little significant difference on piste but will certainly yeld better results off piste.
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You know it makes sense.
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The chart above seems somewhat simplistic. I would guess that marketing people at large ski manufacturers work with more sophisticated market groupings. And small producers aim at very specific niches...
One other point: durability for a one-week-a-year skier is less important than for a hard-charging freerider.
I would also guess that margins depend more on marketing costs than on production costs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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horizon, It is indeed simplistic, albeit accurate in my experience, it's not so complex at manufacturer level, at least as you may think.
Yes it is important i agree.
Depends on the marketing, normally proportional to manufacturing costs and volume. More margin at production more budget for marketing seems logical.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The original Rossi B2 was marketed as an advanced to expert ski by most of the mags when it was first on the market. Quickly relegated to all round punter model. I used them from 4 days in but by 8 weeks I had almost wrecked them. Limp as wet noodles and delaminated for over 12 inches below the binding area.
I do wish that I had gone for a wood core. But then again.... I may not have had my current ski by now if I had done so
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
a ski say of 82mm against a ski of say 95mm will yeld little significant difference on piste but will certainly yeld better results off piste. |
My personal experience is limited to just a few different skis, but for me there is a huge difference between my 76mm skis (r=17m) and my 92mm skis (r=22m). The difference is like night and day on piste, although for my rather limited off-piste technique curiously I don't find there is such a big difference.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
See it like this if you will, a ski say of 82mm against a ski of say 95mm will yeld little significant difference on piste but will certainly yeld better results off piste. |
Heh? Isn't that backwards?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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comprex, I guess so, if your stuck in the 80's.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, mate, you have missed the whole, entire and complete point.
does the colour of your kit match the colour of your pants, your eyes or your soul?
Cos matching colours beats anything*, anyday.
*(Nordica Dobermann excepted, of course...)
Who cares how good you are if you haven't had your colours done (and paid attention)?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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