Poster: A snowHead
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Hang on, why is it bollax, In order to do an extension turn if you are riding regular from toe to heelside, your body automatically rotates in the turn. I didn't mean it in the way of slam your body round to drag your board round, just that the body position for the heelside is different to the toeside. Surely you have realised that when you are in a turn, your body is in a slightly different position than when its not?
With regards to carving, Shaun Wite did a proper carve at this years xgames in the slopestyle which was mentioned in the commentary, which just shows that he knows all the techniques and not just how to spin!
I don't mean carving as in flatout Euro carving, I just mean carving as in total edge turning and not washing out at all, which really draws speed into your riding.
As I said before, it doesn't worry me if people have lessons or not, I have and found them to be great fun and hugely rewarding. Its just that I find most people base their assumptions on a learn to turn week where they are doing just that, because that is what the majority of people want to do.
In skiing lessons they don't teach you how to pole plant until you are an intermediate, but people can still get down mogul fields without doing it. However, once you know how to do it, that's the method you use.
As someone else said here, the most important thing is to enjoy yourself, and the faster people can be up and turning the better. Everything else can be smoothed out once the enjoyment comes (It doesn't tend to be fun when you can't board ten metres without falling over. Like I said before, if it helps, then its good.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stu330, I disagree
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well then that's up to you.
If you don't need lessons, then fine, but alot of people do, and the swiss board school acknowledge that they do things differently to the Austrians or the French. That doesn't make either of them wrong, just different.
You surely have to agree that your body positions alter in a turn though.
All I am trying to really say is that if people want or need lessons then they will find that they improve quicker than without them (We're not the russians in courcheval after all!!). It worked for me, and I always found that being in lessons were some of the most fun I had on a board.
Obviously people who skate or surf are used to translating the feedback from the board up their feet and therefore have a head start, but people who don't skate or surf don't have that luxury.
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I'm with you on this one Stu. I was taught the twisting technique when I learned in the USA, and IMHO it's a perfectly valid way to teach a beginner how to initiate a basic turn, although the movement has to come from the shoulders NOT the waist, (loose knees, straight back, point an arm down the axis of the board and 'point' in the direction you want to go using your shoulders) the movement transfers your weight to toe or heel edge while keeping the body posture intact. I've shown it to learners, and it helped them get the idea of weight transfer and edge pressure.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stu330, I never said I do not need lessons.
A couple of stories .....
I was chatting to a snowheads ski instructor this season with a novice skier, and we were explaining the reason carving skis and snowboards have a side cut, and the result is that you can set an edge in the hard pack snow and the ski/board will turn (in a rdius based upon the side cut) and you can stay 'in line' with the ski or board and not need to twist your body. I mentioned as an aside that I have a skier mate who intiates his turns with quite an exagerated twist of his upper body and this is how he was taught and the ski instructor suggested this was bit of a Swiss technique - and funnily enough my mate has had most/all of his lessons in Switzerland so it seems that the Swiss have a certain take on this.
Anyway, my mate fancied boarding and on a trip to Whistler had three half days 'one on one' instruction, and on his last day I bumped in to him and he was doing the 'point your arm' and the board will follow exercise which was fine and fun because it was nice and fluffy and the snow was belting down. A month later we were in Verbier and it had not snowed for 10 days and the pistes were hard packed to say the least, and he started trying to board in the manner he had been taught. It was a disaster and he boarded in to a rock face on a narrow path (rather than falling down a cliff) and was all over the place. I took him to one side and basically told him to get on an edge, stay on an edge, transfer to the next edge, stay on the edge, transfer back on to the an edge etc ...... and within 20 minutes he was over taking me on blues and reds.
This is an example where a guy paid a lot of money for three days of 'one to one' lessons and did not have the first idea of how a board worked, what edges are for, how weight transfer works etc, but after a quick chat (and watching me) he was carving - not fully completed carved turns - (rather than skiding the back of the board around) down reds and blues. The point is he did not need more lessons, he needed to be taught correctly, either by an instructor or his mate, and all it really needed was a quick 20 minute 'clinic' type chat and demonstration and he was well set up for his next 10 or 20 days boarding and then maybe he would benefit from another (correct) 20 minute 'boarding clinic' to go work on something else
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That's fair enough, but that sounds to me like it was the instructor rather than the teaching method.
When I had lessons they told me to point but use the pressure on the edges.
It also sound to me like your friend took lessons for the first week but then felt he did not need anymore and was riding slopes above his ability. When you explained to him how he needed to think about what was happening with his feet rather than just point, he picked it up quickly. Therefore you gave him basic instruction whcih helped him, saved him the cost of a lesson, but rectified it quickly.
Do you see what I am getting at here? Maybe with a few more lessons about pressure and edges etc he wouldn't have hurt himself.
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stu330, agreed and the lessons did not address the basics well enough, but on his very next trip (4 weeks later) he decided to board, so technically he was boarding the very next day that he was on the mountain after his lessons - end of one trip to beginning of the next trip 4 weeks later. My point is that formal lessons are not the answer to all things boarding (an neither is lovely fully completed carved turns) and my example was to show that lessons can detremental to development if the basic are not taught correctly in the first place. I was not taught about the basics of weight and edge transfer as part of my first lessons either and I believe I should have been.
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I think you can only start going into edge transfers after you've got basic turning nailed. Unless you're a quick learner or have some prior experience from skateboarding or surfing, it doesn't surprise me if you don't cover edging until your third or fourth lesson.
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Richard_Sideways, my mate had 3 days of lessons
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I suppose it depends how confident he was linking he turns up - if the instructor thought he needed more work on getting his turns linked then I wouldn't be surprised that he hadn't got to edging. I don't think i got to it until my 4th lesson.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It takes just as long to achieve a good all-round skill level in any sport, be it skiing, boarding or golf (not sure about tiddlywinks).
Snowboarding allows people to 'survive' more slopes & terrain sooner than skiing & with less input, hence the limitless numbers of 'back-foot kickers' and 'hardcore heel-side sideslippers', but to confidently ride with skill & versatility on all terrain takes a large skillset which generally is going to need plenty of input to achieve.
Any boarders out there who don't believe they can learn anything should book themselves some sessions with the RTM guys in Courchevel, (or a similar dedicated board school), inspirational riders with great coaching skills...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rayscoops wrote: |
my mate fancied boarding and on a trip to Whistler had three half days 'one on one' instruction, and on his last day I bumped in to him and he was doing the 'point your arm' and the board will follow exercise which was fine and fun because it was nice and fluffy and the snow was belting down. A month later we were in Verbier and it had not snowed for 10 days and the pistes were hard packed to say the least, and he started trying to board in the manner he had been taught. It was a disaster |
Three half days of private instruction is not a large amount of tuition, especially if your mate was starting from scratch. If he was already a fairly accomplished boarder and those three half days of private lessons didn't give him an understanding of all the different ways of steering his board I think I'd be wondering about the quality of the instruction, rather than the principle of instruction itself.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DebbiDoesSnow wrote: |
rob@rar, I fully agree that lessons can be fun, just was getting frustrated at hearing the term 'carving'.
You don't see them banging on about carving on Xgames do you? "oo look at shaun whites carve, exceptional use of the piste there" no, they are commenting on his air |
How do you think Shaun gets 5m out of the pipe? By skidding up the wall?
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Poster: A snowHead
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stevomcd, by edge control and not completing full carved turns over 10 meters of the piste
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rayscoops wrote: |
this is point I am making - lessons do not make a good boarder but good instruction does |
On that we firmly agree. I'd never advocate having lessons which don't teach you anything, not least because I had too many of those myself and it was, at best, a waste of time and money. But a little bit of time with a good instructor pays dividends in terms of technique, and from that comes confidence and ultimately enjoyment.
Yes, back in the UK now. Would love to see the McNab stuff
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stevomcd wrote: |
DebbiDoesSnow wrote: |
rob@rar, I fully agree that lessons can be fun, just was getting frustrated at hearing the term 'carving'.
You don't see them banging on about carving on Xgames do you? "oo look at shaun whites carve, exceptional use of the piste there" no, they are commenting on his air |
How do you think Shaun gets 5m out of the pipe? By skidding up the wall? |
no but i think he wouldn't achieve any air if he carved his way with sweeping turns up the wall
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DebbiDoesSnow wrote: |
no but i think he wouldn't achieve any air if he carved his way with sweeping turns up the wall |
I'm assuming that carving/edge control is quicker than skidding/pivoting (as it is with skis) so faster speed = greater launch velocity = greater air. No?
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oh good god people get some HUMOUR ... I said SWEEPING
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rob@rar, most boarders carve to some degree - it is the basics of riding because you are only riding one plank, it just seems that unless you are doing 10 m wide complete sweeping carved turns all day long then you are crap
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rayscoops wrote: |
rob@rar, most boarders carve to some degree - it is the basics of riding because you are only riding one plank, it just seems that unless you are doing 10 m wide complete sweeping carved turns all day long then you are crap |
Not in my book. A good skier/boarder can master all the ways of steering their skis/board.
BTW, what's the difference between a sweeping, long radius carved turn, and a tight carved turn at the bottom of a halfpipe which takes you up the other side without scrubbing off much speed?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rayscoops wrote: |
rob@rar, most boarders carve to some degree - it is the basics of riding because you are only riding one plank |
That's just waffle ray. It's perfectly possible to ride one plank down the mountain, making turns, without doing anything which even resembles carving.
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stevomcd, ok, you win, you know everything, you are brilliant, you can turn without using an edge, you have you BASI 1, you do 10 meter carved turns, you do tight carved turns, you know what 98% or boarders do, you know what 98% of boarders do not, you know that 98% of boarders are rubbish, ............ all i wanted to know was how many people have had lessons ffs
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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No need to throw the toys out of the pram ray. The topic had digressed way beyond your OP long before I ever posted! My point was, and remains, that from living in the mountains and seeing a whole lot of people ride, I think it's a shame that more snowboarders don't take more lessons - I think most people could get a lot out of it. I wish I'd taken more a long time ago, I'd be a better rider for it now.
I've never said that carving (or anything else) is the most important thing in snowboarding, it's just one example of things that most riders can't do. Many of the skiers out there take more lessons, and I think it shows. They carve better, jump better, go faster, we riders get shown up and that really sucks. Only place we get to kick a$$ is in the pow!
FWIW, the technical criteria for passing BASI 2 include (from memory):
Moderate Slopes (blue runs) - ride at a constant speed making cleanly carved turns of the same (long) radius
Steeper slopes (red runs) - ride at a constant speed using short radius (dynamic, skidded) turns of the same radius
Freestyle - 180's nailed, should be able to do 360's, get decent air out of both walls of a pipe
Flatland - have a decent repertoire of presses, butters, etc.
Variable terrain - be able to make good, smooth turns in powder, bumps, crud, etc.
The first two are surprisingly difficult - try it next time you're out!
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You know it makes sense.
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I had an hour with my Friend who snowboards every seasons day in France (he said dont pay for lessons I'll show you, use the your arms hands like an aeroplane and point your leading arm where you want to go) I made my first linked turn in 10 minutes then it was up the chair lift to a red run and burn my thighs and calves out using my back edge as I cautiously came down the hill for a few days until I picked it up.
I have continued to pick up stuff from him every time I go over there and I have tried the half pipes with success but put me on a narrow flat shoosh (the link between hills) and I ocassionally, like one in a couple of weeks, catch a back edge but don't go down hard like whern I started.
P.S. I stopped the aeroplane position after a week, steep runs like blacks or double diamonds are the easier than those shooshes.
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