Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Vipa, bit of a nut by the look of it.
rob@rar, water melon would be better, I think. The skull has awfully thin bone, and a coconut has a tough shell. Happy for a medic to advise on this one.
flangesax, the mind boggles at me bringing in a pig's head and explaining to Mrs a what I am doing!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
A pig's head, within a candlelit snowheads sticker shroud....
Chant 'Snowheads' 3 times then drop the sacrificial brick!
After all it is free
After all it is free
kristof You seem to be enquiring if anyone thinks that wearing a helmet falsely enhances ones opinion of their own safety.
My opinion is yes. This is also the opinion of some that see parents providing children that play rugby with foam padded vests; children might be taking up tackles that sometimes they ought not to be so agressive about, and in turn are not raising their skills to the levels they probably could. I confess to also making my child wear a vest and scrum hat even though he's on the wing. Probably not my only crazy decision as some might know but parents do these things. My understanding also is that motorcycle helmets are practical for 30-50mph impacts - depending on the circumstances - and dont do much at retaining fleshy matter at over 70mph. Its law for the UK road, I believe now law for U14 on the slopes in Italy & Austria but guess the technology and results are similar throughout. I dont wear one on the slopes but make my nipper wear one in icy or poor conditions, but strangely do myself for mountain biking and moreover it keeps the brambles and twigs away from my scalp when I crash! I've even heard that car seatbelts and airbags aren't all they're cracked up to be. Do we need a mythbusters column?
Maybe the lesson learnt might be to maximise safety protection if and where you feel it desirable, but decide on your terrain as if you're starkers.
I appreciate that conjurs up all soughts of hysteria in the sensitive 'snowheads' environment but good luck with the recovery Kristoff... maybe sudoku for a while? Its safe but surprsingly stimulating.
carled, where do boarders keep their nuts... on the ground between their legs.
Boarders unite - in a huddle to the right
Boarders make peace - sitting right across the piste
Boarders bereft - in a huddle to the left
Caio.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
gonwitdeewind wrote:
I've even heard that car seatbelts and airbags aren't all they're cracked up to be
That just depends what you realistically expect them to save you from. But not wearing a seatbelt in your car is complete madness.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
uktrailmonster wrote:
gonwitdeewind wrote:
I've even heard that car seatbelts and airbags aren't all they're cracked up to be
That just depends what you realistically expect them to save you from...
uktrailmonster, I have a choice?
uktrailmonster wrote:
... But not wearing a seatbelt in your car is complete madness.
uktrailmonster, Agree, but lets all charge off piste anyway?
Just for clarity I meant that together seatbelts & airbags are not mutually as ideal as was anticipated.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I am a lawyer and have dealt with several serious brain injury cases. One of them involved an allegation that someone suffered a severe, personality changing, brain injury by standing up suddenly and banging his head on a protruding crowbar. Two of the country's top neurosurgeons and neuropsychologists were of the opinion that this type of injury - graze with small amount of blood - was quite capable of causing brain damage because it was focussed on a small area (ie almost sharp point).
This type of injury would be avoided by wearing a helmet - that is obvious.
However, many brain injuries are caused through the "whiplash" effect of the head being thrown forwards and then backwards - moving the brain within the head and causing a tearing of the substance holding it in place, and an impact between the brain and the inside of the skull.
The benefit of a helmet in these cases seems less obvious although, as a matter of common sense, you would expect some of the impact to be absorbed.
Thought this might be of interest. Keep up the debate, there must be at least another ten threads in it!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Lorenzo, it's very interesting to hear from someone who has personal experience.
The conclusion from all of the above seems to be that helmets will help make some but not all injuries less serious. One of the main arguments of people who don't think wearing a helmet is a good idea is that they increase risk to others who aren't wearing a helmet. Personally I don't buy this argument - I haven't yet seen any recounts of such accidents, and think if you crash, a ski on head impact is much more likely than a head on head impact.
I'm going to continue wearing a helmet.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
Two of the country's top neurosurgeons and neuropsychologists were of the opinion that this type of injury - graze with small amount of blood - was quite capable of causing brain damage because it was focussed on a small area (ie almost sharp point).
Wow! Precisely that kind of injury was sustained by a friend of mine in January, getting on a chairlift. Someone brought the bar down a bit early. There were three of us on the chair, and my friend was not quite square on his seat - the bar had a "bend" which came down between the seats, and this caught him on the head. It hurt him quite badly and I think the bar might have had a bit of rough welding on it, because when we got off he realized that his head was bleeding - his beanie was already a bit damp with blood. He's not one to make a fuss, in fact quite the reverse, but he was very ready to accept my suggestion that we go and have a sit down and a coffee. Having been very dubious about whether he would wear a helmet, he's now thinking about it. And we are extra careful on that chair. I admit that I had never thought that kind of injury could cause brain damage. You live and learn. Also, as my friend has gingery colouring, the effect of the blood matted on the back of his head was most unbecoming.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w wrote:
Quote:
Two of the country's top neurosurgeons and neuropsychologists were of the opinion that this type of injury - graze with small amount of blood - was quite capable of causing brain damage because it was focussed on a small area (ie almost sharp point).
Wow! .... I admit that I had never thought that kind of injury could cause brain damage. You live and learn.
I suppose I should emphasise the word "capable" here - likelihood of it happening is a different matter. But if it does, it is serious .....
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Lorenzo wrote:
..........This type of injury would be avoided by wearing a helmet - that is obvious........
It sure is with a builder's helmet, which has a very substantial shell and then a well supported inner structure to distance the shell from the head. In contrast, a recreational skier's helmet is almost incredibly flimsy. The near paper-thin outer shell is there to hold in place a very thin layer of expanded polystyrene foam. That's it, whether you have raised a mortgage to buy a Giro helmet or bought cheap and cheerful. I would trust a builder's helmet to give me considerable protection form a crowbar. I would not trust a skier's helmet. The latter is useful for protection from relatively minor (if unpleasant) injuries from slow-speed accidents which is why I usually wear one - but it's protection against anything else is by no means obvious.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I would still prefer to have a
Quote:
near paper-thin outer shell
with a
Quote:
very thin layer of expanded polystyrene foam.
to protect me from a crowbar rather than my hair!
My helmet (Dainese) cost €80 - can not be described as paper-thin.
As a kid I used to skateboard and do BMX... helmets are fantastic... when you fall over it doesn't hurt as much! when you fall over you don't cut your head.... when you fall over you don't end up with a graze....
I think this will be my last post about helmets now. IMO there is no decent argument on this thread (or any other (or at all)) that a helemet is bad for you! It is personal preference.
Those who choose not to wear a helmet, please stop trying to convince others with weak and BS arguments (whether scientifically based or otherwise) that helmets are actually more dangerous.
A skier or boarder who thinks he or she is untouchable due to the life-saving properties of their lid is already a head case and probably skis/rides like one anyway!
See ya!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
pam w, My Dainese helmet gives good protection from chair bars. I've been hit by those a couple of times recently when some numpty has lowered it within a few milliseconds of getting on the lift.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
flangesax, your helmet may not be paper thin. But when it becomes life-ex, get someone to run it through a saw, debur the edges, and see what you have got for an outer shell. Oh, and I do wear a helmet, so I don't think that I am trying to convince others with BS arguments not to wear them. Sorry.
uktrailmonster, I never used to get clonked by chair bars until I wore a helmet. Now I have to take care to duck.
In contrast, a recreational skier's helmet is almost incredibly flimsy. The near paper-thin outer shell is there to hold in place a very thin layer of expanded polystyrene foam. That's it, whether you have raised a mortgage to buy a Giro helmet or bought cheap and cheerful.
That doesn't sound like my race helmet at all. It includes a ballistic grade anti-penetration membrane, a honeycomb sandwich layer which is designed to crumple to absorb high energy impacts, as well as the outer shell which will protect against cuts and light knocks.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar, I did say recreational skier's helmet. I have dug around quite a lot on the subject of recreational helmets, but other than to notice that vents are not allowed on race helmets, I don't know much about those.
How much does your helmet weigh? Maybe racers being athletes are thought to have stronger neck muscles, and so be less prone to whiplash, than ordinary punters like me. Maybe they are also likely to be prepared to fork out more than punters - especially if being allowed to race depends upon being suitably equipped..
rob@rar, I did say recreational skier's helmet. I have dug around quite a lot on the subject of recreational helmets, but other than to notice that vents are not allowed on race helmets, I don't know much about those.
I use it as a recreational helmet, although it is useful to have the option to bolt a chinguard to it if required. I didn't pay much more than the cost of a Giro G10 for it, and up until a few weeks ago you could buy one online from previous season's stock for less than £80 (although the normal retail price is £240 ish). Helmets don't have to be a thin shell covered a bit of expanded polystyrene...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
achilles wrote:
How much does your helmet weigh?
I'll try to find out for you (I don't have it with me at the moment) but from memory it's no heavier than my brother-in-law's G9.
After all it is free
After all it is free
achilles wrote:
How much does your helmet weigh?
Less than 476 grammes according to this website. The Giro G10 is 440g I think. I'm no engineer so I'm not sure how much the 36g difference between the two would make in either day-day use or a high speed, cartwheeling crash.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I agree that a helmet makes it more likely that you clonk your head on a lift - stands to reason, as it makes your head a bit bigger. But people certainly do get clonked without a helmet, as my friend discovered, because idiots snatch the bar down so fast. Every time I get on a lift now, I automatically put my hand up to the bar and hold it UP till everyone's ready - sometimes fighting against someone the other end trying to pull it down. I can see that a chairlift injury bad enough, or unlucky enough, to cause brain damage is very unlikely, but my poor friend did feel quite shocked and his beanie was a mess. The scab prevented his combing his hair properly for a while, too. Ironically, a similar injury would be very improbable when the 4 man chair was full, because then everybody would be right on the seat, not overlapping them.
Come to think of it, maybe he did get a touch of brain damage, as he signed up to buy a ski apartment just before Chritmas, with the euro very strong against the pound.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Thu 19-02-09 12:41; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar, interesting. I would like to know the weight [edit - I see you have given it, thanks]. It's difficult to provide extra protection without weight (the motor cycle helmet I once had weighed a whole bunch more than my ski helmets, and I see such helmets still do). But maybe modern technology can do it. Care to let us know the helmet price?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
gsb, yes, a POC Skull Comp.
achilles, weight and prices given above.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar, thanks. $319 - all too often $=£ in UK shops. Probably the extra protection is not thought cost effective for recreational skiers - and there are no vents, I think. I like the helmet-protection case POC offer.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I have a POC helmet too (in white, it's lovely!) but I only wear it for racing. Not quite as comfy as my everyday helmet.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
achilles, £240 is retail in the UK, although you can probably get it a bit cheaper if you search. I bought it considerably cheaper than that (less than half that in fact, not much more than a Giro G10), and as I said earlier 2006/07 versions of the helmet were being sold for £79 by OneBelowZero just before Christmas.
Quote:
Probably the extra protection is not thought cost effective for recreational skiers
Not sure I understand that. Isn't my safety just as important as a racer's safety?
The one downside of this helmet for me is that it does get hot in there, but as in most things in life there are compromises to be made. Some people might prefer a lower level of protection in order for greater comfort (as do I sometimes).
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
beanie1 wrote:
I have a POC helmet too (in white, it's lovely!)
I almost went for Mancuso Blue, but chickened out at the last minute and went for Safe Black!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
kristof, - this sounds like it's less a case of the efficacy of helmets and more a case of inadequate knowledge, preparation and experience of off-piste skiing.
Hopefully you will take proper lessons and employ a qualified guide next time and not venture off on your own or with equally inexperienced friends.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
..........Not sure I understand that. Isn't my safety just as important as a racer's safety?..........
Clearly the suppliers of recreational helmets don't think so. And to be fair, that seems reasonable. Head injuries are very rare for recreational skiers. My guess is that the risk for racers receiving injuries, which the extra helmet a race helmet gives, is considerably higher than for most punters. To put it another way, on a risk matrix, the risk for racers might be significant, but insignificant for punters.
Another guess is that those who devised the standards thought that punters might be prepared to fork out for helmets costing - say - £60 - for some protection - but not £240 or so (discount offers don't seem to be always available).
I don't subscribe to the safety at any price concept. Aircraft makers use risk assessment matrices or algorithms, to protect against significant risk - but there are limits. I do wonder what risk assessment logic has gone into ski helmet design.
Isn't my safety just as important as a racer's safety?
Of course. But isn't it about level of risk? My safety is just as important as that of Formula 1 racing driver, but I don't dress up like they do every time I go to Tescos.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
achilles, earlier you seem to be criticising faith in under-specced helmets. Now you seem to be criticising over-specced helmets
If I'm going to be in a situation where a helmet makes a big difference to the outcome of an accident I don't think that the extra £100 or so (or in my case an extra £20) that I spent on the helmet will be an important factor for me.
BTW, isn't there two international standards for ski helmets? How many helmets are sold which don't meet one or other of these standards?
It might not be relevant to this discussion but I often ski much faster when I'm free skiing than I do when I've skied GS gates. The risk of consequences from a high speed fall are much greater for me when free skiing than under the controlled conditions of a GS course.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 19-02-09 13:21; edited 1 time in total
..........Not sure I understand that. Isn't my safety just as important as a racer's safety?..........
Clearly the suppliers of recreational helmets don't think so.
I suspect the makers of helmets (I don't think there is a sensible distinction 'recreational' and 'race' helmets) will charge what they think the market will pay rather than taking a nanny-like decision on what level of protection they think holiday skiers need.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I bought a helmet for this year. Very comfy, good vision, kept me warm and no discernable affect on my hearing. I don't think I was tempted in to being any more reckless with my skiing and choice of runs (just about all on-piste). I did notice that I got a lot more knocks from chair lift bars and hoisting skis on my shoulders than in the past . Basically once on I didn't notice it was there so my skiing was largely unaffected. Now I've got one I will wear it whenever I go skiing.
After all it is free
After all it is free
A cheaper way to reduce the risk of a skiing head injury is to do less skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar wrote:
achilles, earlier you seem to be criticising faith in under-specced helmets. Now you seem to be criticising over-specced helmets
Not at all. I am curious though.
Quote:
If I'm going to be in a situation where a helmet makes a big difference to the outcome of an accident I don't think that the extra £100 or so (or in my case an extra £20) that I spent on the helmet will be an important factor for me.
Well, there's the rub. The only guy I can recall off hand who really clobbered his head in a race was Scott McCartney. Helmet didn't seem to do him much good - though we will never know the results had he not been wearing one, I suspect even racing helmets offer little protection at high speed.
Quote:
BTW, isn't there two international standards for ski helmets?
More than that (scroll down to Risk calculation and helmet standards). [edit: Link corrected]
Quote:
How many helmets are sold which don't meet one or other of these standards?
I can't imagine a reputable sports shop in Europe would not conform to minimum European standards.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 19-02-09 14:59; edited 1 time in total
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
achilles wrote:
The only guy I can recall off hand who really clobbered his head in a race was Scott McCartney. Helmet didn't seem to do him much good - though we will never know the results had he not been wearing one, I suspect even racing helmets offer little protection at high speed.
As you say, difficult to know one way or another. I doubt he would want to repeat the accident without a helmet in the interests of science...
Incidently, he was wearing a POC Skull Comp helmet.
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