 Poster: A snowHead
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I'd like to share this experience as I know a few people have some strong opinions on their use.
I bought one for this season and their magical injury prevention properties still didn't prevent a quite nasty injury. I'm now debating whether I'll wear it in the future.
Personally I think their use encourages over-confidence. We were skiing off-piste where plenty of rocks were on show when the accident happened. If I didn't have the helmet I'm sure I would have thought twice about skiing in such a sketchy area.
Since the accident I've had plenty of episodes where I've been unsteady on my feet and my friends have had to support me, I thank them for that and their support after the accident. The doctors think I'll be okay soon and the daily doses of drugs are certainly helping the recovery.
Can anyone re-affirm my belief in their use?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry to hear of your accident - any chance the injury could have been worse without a helmet? Don't forget that peer pressure (even if not explicit) and kodak courage can also encourage you to do things that you maybe shouldn't have done in retrospect so I'd hesitate to attribute all overconfidence to helmets.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| kristof wrote: |
| Personally I think their use encourages over-confidence. We were skiing off-piste where plenty of rocks were on show when the accident happened. If I didn't have the helmet I'm sure I would have thought twice about skiing in such a sketchy area. |
Were you on rental skis?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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kristof, best of luck in your recovery. Everything I have read suggests helmets are not much use in a high-speed accident. However, I think they are useful for preventing some cuts and abrasions - and I often wear one for that. Having read a lot of snowheads' comments, I think their is an almost mystical belief in helmets' saving qualities - and so I do suspect they promote over confidence.
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I'm struggling to work out if this is a wind-up post or not? It's one of those completely personal experience thingies, innit? If you HADN'T been wearing a helmet and had hit your head in the same way, would the injury have been worse? If so, it did its job. If you say you wouldn't have been there but for the helmet then I'm sorry to have to tell you this, you're an utter berk for being there.
I reckon that in skiing/boarding, there are going to be certain instances where a certain number of people will be involved in accidents. Of those people, a certain number would have been more severely injured but for the helmet they were wearing. Furthermore a certain number of those people will have been more seriously injured because they WEREN'T wearing a helmet.
Now the problem is, you're talking a certain number of a certain number of a certain number. It's playing the odds. I think that in skiing and boarding, like with driving, certain people are more prone to being involved in accidents, they're just less aware of their surroundings or have less sharp reactions or something, dunno what it is, it's just that certain something. (Cue torrent of abuse from people who have been involved in accidents now that claim it wasn't their fault - you're probably absolutely right and are the exception that proves the rule, 'k?)
I tried a helmet on in a shop today, very expensive it was too. Bloody horrible uncomfortable thing it was, made my head hot in seconds flat and gave me the impression that my peripheral vision was impaired. My personal view is that as I get older and slower, a helmet may be a good idea. Whilst I'm still agile enough and observant enough to avoid pretty much anything coming my way, I see no reason whatsover to wear one.
If/when I do finally give in to a "head nappy" then I certainly won't treat it as superman's cape and believe it invests me with superhuman powers of off-piste ability...
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kristof, Could it be your decision-making you need to assess rather than the lid? But the lid could at least protect you against others poor decisions when they hit you.
What little research there is looking at adaptive behaviour with lids does not suggest that they increase injury rates through increased risk taking.. However - as I and others have posted many times before - unless someone does a prospective double blind trial (which is impossible) we will never know for sure...
Get well soon.
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| Quote: |
Can anyone re-affirm my belief in their use?
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Not clear what belief you want re-affirmed. Your belief that, if you bang your head, you are less likely to get hurt if you had a helmet on, can probably safely be affirmed. Your belief that a helmet would stop you being injured skiing off-piste with "plenty of rocks?" can clearly not be affirmed; you have yourself presented the empirical evidence to the contrary.
Hope you get better soon, though. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Since buying a cycling helmet I feel perfectly safe cycling on the M25 
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| kristof, Could it be your decision-making you need to assess rather than the lid? |
Quite right. I suggest you don't buy an avalanche transceiver, or sell it if you already own one.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| What little research there is looking at adaptive behaviour with lids does not suggest that they increase injury rates through increased risk taking |
There's a quite a bit here to suggest that cycle helmets don't reduce the rate of injury (for who-know-what reason).
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1013.html
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, yes - spot on for adult cyclists on the road. But there was a big Scandinavian study which did show lower injury rates for snowusers using lids.
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stoatsbrother, and there was an Aviemore on that stated there was no change - though last time I looked at ski-injury.com that had been removed, or at least I could not find it.
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You know it makes sense.
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I totally, steadfastly refuse to be pulled into yet another helmet debate, however I totally agree with your first post, stoatsbrother.
Get well soon kristof,
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I used a helmet for the first time recently.Got used to it instantly and it kept me as warm as my normal bobble hat. For me there is no downside .I do fall quite a lot though!
My daughter always wears one and had a big "flip "on her board this last time.Very spectacular but her head was protected and she ended up with a slightly sore neck and a bit of shock. Without the helmet a very sore head or worse
My other half never wears a helmet but doesnt fall. Very good skiier though and very safe . Maybe people need to look at their skill levels or risk taking but the helmets themselves dont cause the injuries!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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kristof, Get well soon..
I don't wear one and am weighing up if I will do so in the future.
I think skiing with a bit of fear in a certain situation helps me... rocks below defo concentrates the mind and I like that feeling even with a degree of apprehension.
I can't say whether I would be over-confident with one personally but I like to think I ski safe in clutch situations.
Of course, an accident is an accident is an accident.
Only you can say what you will ski..... but as a few instructors might say...listen to what YOUR ar$**le says... and go with it, IMV .........
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| carled wrote: |
| I tried a helmet on in a shop today, very expensive it was too. Bloody horrible uncomfortable thing it was, made my head hot in seconds flat and gave me the impression that my peripheral vision was impaired. My personal view is that as I get older and slower, a helmet may be a good idea. Whilst I'm still agile enough and observant enough to avoid pretty much anything coming my way, I see no reason whatsover to wear one. |
You should definitely be able to find one that is comfortable. And definitely not reduce your vision.
I have a Giro and I don't even notice it on after a while (first run in the morning really). I have the same vision with or without the helmet.
Some things you can't avoid. Like hitting your hit on a hard piste if you take a tumble. Or being knocked off your feet by a novice when getting on a chairlift. This happened to me a couple of year ago and I ended underneath the chair and the chair hit me on the back of the head. Good job I was wearing a helmet!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just found this at ski-injury.com
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| ...their main protective effect would appear to be mostly in relation to more minor injuries such as abrasions and contusions................wear a helmet, but don’t think it makes you invincible – you still need to ski and board with care and watch out for trees. |
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I have watched previous threads on this topic and think I now have the answer which I am happy with - at least for myself.
If I fall and hit my head, with no helmet, and suffer brain damage, then I will beat myself up for the rest of my life because I will FEEL that it was my fault. If I am killed by a head injury my family will be left saying "stupid idiot, we hate you, if only you had worn a helmet your kids would still have their dad here etc".
However, if I fall WITH a helmet, with the same consequences, then I will at least have the comfort of knowing (wherever I am) that I had taken every precaution, and that this was simply an unfortunate act of fate.
I am about to start using a helmet. So ends the sermon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nicely put..I suspect in about 10 years time there will be no real debate and most of us will wear helmets..My teenagers have no probs with it and are very fashion conscious etc
Get well soon 
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| Quote: |
I suspect in about 10 years time there will be no real debate and most of us will wear helmets
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I agree, although I don't wear a helmet myself and don't feel like I need to, right now virtually all kids who learn to ski are required to wear helmets, and when they grow up they'll not think twice about it. The old gits like me will gradually get swamped by a young generation of helmet wearers!
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| skidd1 wrote: |
Nicely put..I suspect in about 10 years time there will be no real debate and most of us will wear helmets..My teenagers have no probs with it and are very fashion conscious etc
Get well soon |
Quite possibly - lack of a real argument is no substitute for herd pressure.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Quite possibly - lack of a real argument is no substitute for herd pressure. |
Quite right, coming from either the pros or the antis. As an occasional wearer of helmets I seem to be on the wrong end of everyone's argument from time to time
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rob@rar, I wear one most of the times, these days when I am skiing - I reckon it could save me from the odd unpleasant cut or bruise.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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achilles, Agreed, totally, IMVeryHO wearing a helmet might not save the season, but it may well save your day.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lorenzo wrote: |
I have watched previous threads on this topic and think I now have the answer which I am happy with - at least for myself.
If I fall and hit my head, with no helmet, and suffer brain damage, then I will beat myself up for the rest of my life because I will FEEL that it was my fault. If I am killed by a head injury my family will be left saying "stupid idiot, we hate you, if only you had worn a helmet your kids would still have their dad here etc".
However, if I fall WITH a helmet, with the same consequences, then I will at least have the comfort of knowing (wherever I am) that I had taken every precaution, and that this was simply an unfortunate act of fate.
I am about to start using a helmet. So ends the sermon. |
The flaw in the argument is (or, at any rate, could be) the assumption that a head plus a helmet behaves in the same way as a head. But it's bigger, it's heavier and a has a bigger moment of inertia (about any axis). So it's a bigger target and it's harder to get out of the way. Then there's arguments about poorer senses (hearing and peripheral vision) decreasing reaction time. I don't know if all that outweighs the obvious advantages - maybe it's a function of the type of skiing, terrain, etc - and neither, I suspect, does anybody else.
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I don't think my helmet reduces my hearing any more than a hefty hat would, and I don't see how it can reduce my peripheral vision, either. I always wear it with goggles, and I certainly can't see the sides of the helmet - it's the goggles, rather than the helmet, which determine the peripheral vision.
Heads in helmets don't behave like heads without - that's for sure. They do get clonked more often on chairlifts (because they're bigger targets) and I do suspect you tend to get worse whiplash in a really heavy smack onto the piste. But having had to escort to the doctor (and monitor for 24 hours subsequently) a concussed guest who fell backwards onto the lift track because he hung on to a button lift too long, whilst wearing a helmet, I am fairly convinced of their merits. He had mild concussion which just meant he vomited all afternoon and half the evening, and couldn't remember much. I wouldn't want to look after anyone with severe concussion, that's for sure; I had instruction to telephone Albertville Hospital and send for an ambulance if he appeared to be getting worse. My helmet keeps my head warm and dry (though I tried on masses before I found a really comfortable fit). It does sometimes make my head itch - but so does a hat. My Giro has plenty of ventilation holes in the top, so I carry a big knitting needle so that I can scratch my head without taking the helmet off.
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| it's the goggles, rather than the helmet, which determine the peripheral vision. |
What if it's slower to swivel your head?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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It would be a very, very, marginal difference, I'd guess. A good helmet is light and close-fitting. For all but the top skiers balance would probably be a more critical factor than a helmet in determining how far and fast they could swivel their heads to check alongside and behind them. I suspect that more beginners fall over because they're fearfully looking back trying to work out where that snowboarder is going than get walloped from behind when they're bimbling along minding their own business. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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maggi, alright, I admit it, I don't.  But I have sat on chairlifts sometimes wishing I had one!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, I expect you're right.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Maybe you would drive better without a seatbelt as well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| kristof wrote: |
I'd like to share this experience as I know a few people have some strong opinions on their use.
I bought one for this season and their magical injury prevention properties still didn't prevent a quite nasty injury. I'm now debating whether I'll wear it in the future.
Personally I think their use encourages over-confidence. We were skiing off-piste where plenty of rocks were on show when the accident happened. If I didn't have the helmet I'm sure I would have thought twice about skiing in such a sketchy area.
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Please tell me you are sh*tting us here? So you've just banged your head quite hard and you're now thinking of not wearing a helmet in future? If you were dumb enough to feel invincible wearing a helmet, that issue should now be resolved.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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pam w,
Definitely with you on the "head with helmet is bigger target".
Last year in Les Gets, no helmet = no head clunks... this year in Les Gets same head, same lifts, new helmet = at least one clunk a day. Not very scientific, but proof for me that after 30+ years of skiing, I now need to learn a new skill - ducking on the chairllifts.
My Giro G10 is much less itchy than the wooly hat I used to wear when it was cold/snowy, and just as easy to put off/on on a lift IMHO.
CW
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"If I didn't have the helmet I'm sure I would have thought twice about skiing in such a sketchy area."
Well then the answer is obvious - don't ski in such areas, and leave the helmet on - double the protection! I can't understand why you are contemplating ditching the helmet.... 
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| Quote: |
Well then the answer is obvious - don't ski in such areas, and leave the helmet on - double the protection! I can't understand why you are contemplating ditching the helmet....
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Totally agree. Blaming dangerous or risky behaviour on wearing a helmet is crazy. It's like saying I wouldn't have driven the car dangerously if I hadn't been wearing a safety belt. Anyone who takes this approach needs to re-educate themselves in their attitude to risk.
A helmet might not have stopped you getting some kind of head injury, but imagine if you'd had a direct impact with one of those rocks without a helmet? I very much doubt you'd be here typing this now.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| sps89 wrote: |
Maybe you would drive better without a seatbelt as well.
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Stupid comment.
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| pam w wrote: |
| But having had to escort to the doctor (and monitor for 24 hours subsequently) a concussed guest who fell backwards onto the lift track because he hung on to a button lift too long, whilst wearing a helmet, I am fairly convinced of their merits. |
That doesn't (to me, anyway) make a whole lot of sense though. It still doesn't prove that the helmet prevented anything worse happening and, who knows, it MAY have caused the injury to be worse by the extra weight of the helmet... we just don't know, that's the problem... Also it demonstrates to me that your guest caused the problem by his/her actions (hanging on to the button lift too long) which is one of those darwinism things - harsh but true - learn and evolve or maybe skiing's not for you.
There are things that happen on (and off) piste that you are directly responsible for (the drag lift example above), skiing/boarding in unsafe areas, skiing/boarding too fast for the conditions/your ability/amount of people around you, poor technique leading to falls, not getting out of the way of chair lifts and probably many more. Then there are those things over which you have little control (person appearing out of trees hitting you, person running into you, random object dropping onto you from rockfall/chairlift) and so on. I would argue that a LOT of the second category are also very avoidable if people keep their wits about them, but there are, of course, exceptions.
It's very analagous to driving a car... some people are accidents waiting to happen and have several "incidents" a year. Others go a lifetime (luckily or skilfully) avoiding any kind of incident. There are times when something happens that you have no control over (half brick dropped on you from motorway bridge, car crosses central reservation coming other way, equipment failure...) and EVEN THEN those with their wits about them have more chance of avoiding injury (steering into skids, fast reactions getting them through a gap that a less experienced driver would have missed, picking legs up out of floorwell to avoid crushing, ducking below dashboard to avoid rock/stone/glass/other object) and I think it's the same with helmets.
There are times when a helmet *may* save more traumatic injury and I think they should be worn by utter beginners and timid skiers/boarders - mainly because they're concentrating too hard on not falling over and have a crap sense of spatial awareness so are less likely to spot the flailing out of control lunatic bearing down on them) but there is no real way of testing this to any great satisfaction and it may be a bit like american football, where there was a sort of arms race of padding caused by increasing firmness of helmets, pads and so on so that OTHERS on the "field of play" have to also arm themselves to defend themselves - I daresay that a helmetted head hitting an unhelmeted one may be at an unfair advantage... in which case the person wearing the helmet, IF they caused the accident, has therefore made things worse by wearing the helmet as it's hardly reasonable to expect everyone else to protect themselves against YOU now, is it? What if I took to wearing a spiked suit as I thought it offered me protection against falling and sliding down an icy black run? I'm ok if I run into you in your nice soft ski suit, but what about you? Are you at fault for not wearing protection against MY protection...? It goes on...
Look, it HAS to come down to individual choice. My girls are now 15 and 12, they've been skiing since they were 7 & 4 and haven't (touch wood) ever come close (that has been reported to me or I've seen) to any kind of accident, let alone one involving their heads. Whether this is down to luck, me snowboarding behind them on busy runs to protect them from idiots or me being their "eyes and ears" (I've also never come remotely close to feeling my head was under threat in 20 yrs+ on the slopes, even in heavy falls and when (once - as a beginner boarder) taking out a skier (but even then I minimized the damage by choosing to lie down and making sure the board hit her ski boots) I just don't know, but when they carry on skiing and boarding, I trust them to make their own minds up, I won't insist on them wearing a helmet.
I reserve my right to change my opinion if/when there is EVER a report that conclusively states that a helmet prevented more serious injury than would otherwise have happened but until then I think it's more down to "situation awareness" than "bad luck" a lot of the time...
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FAQ
... so all you can do is weigh up the pros/cons of wearing a helmet for yourself, assess your attitude to risk - and then do what you think is best for you
, that sounds lethal if you fall on it! Far more dangerous than not wearing a helmet 