 Poster: A snowHead
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uktrailmonster, A friend of mine sponsored a well-known F1 driver who at the junior level outraced a future world champion time and time again. When his natural talent got him better drives and into F1..he was found out because altho he was naturally very quick...he had no interest or ability to set up a car...
If the car was good...he'd be very good that weekend, but if it was bad, the team was lost as he'd give them no input as to what was wrong...
so they say..........
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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uktrailmonster, that's very interesting. I'd've imagined a normal distribution with F1 drivers certainly coming in the top 15%.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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slikedges, me too, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to work like that in practice. We presume F1 drivers have cat-like reactions and sense of balance, but instead they are just human-like. That reminds me, did anyone see the documentary about Colin Jackson? It was trying to answer the same question of why he was so talented. There were some interesting conclusions, but it was a combination of genetics, background, training and obsessive committment over many years. The only exceptional thing about him physically was an extremely high proportion of super fast twitch muscle. A characteristic commonly seen in the area where he was born (Jamaica). Apart from that they couldn't find anything to set him apart from other very average athletes. But his training and committment was on another planet. That was what made the difference between top club runner and Olympic Gold medalist.
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uktrailmonster, that's what I teach my kids, can have all the talent on the planet but you could still be surpassed by someone else who works harder
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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uktrailmonster, CJ never won an Olympic Gold (though arguably he should have done).
As to the start of the thread, I think many fit young people can progress from beginner to blacks in a week in good conditions with small group tuition. They will miss out on those early days I remember when contions were lousy. Day two of first ski holiday - sheet ice from frozen overnight rain (Austria), skiing down a melting river in Glenshee, etc.
So, let's wait and see how people cope with a few more slopes before throwing the term expert around.
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Have you ever been skiing with someone who's done two weeks previously and confidently states "I can ski blacks no probs"? This specimen is usually male and his overinflated ego enters the room ten minutes before he does...
The result on the slopes is somewhere between hilarious and downright dangerous. They probably also think they are good drivers and good partners, yet have a string of motoring offences and claims, not to mention a couple of kids who 'live with their mums'...
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queen bodecia, I've only met one guy who I thought was a naturally talented skier. He didn't make a big song and dance about skiing blacks after one week, he just got on and did it. Three of us skied the Grand Couloir in Courchevel - he skied it well, perfectly under control and with great enjoyment. It was only later in the day that it became clear in conversation that it was his 9th day on snow (in fact I didn't believe him until someone else confirmed that). Over the years I've skied with hundreds of different people and he was the only one that I'd say came close to being naturally talented rather than just a quick learner.
I've met a lot more people who do boast of their brilliance on skis after not much experience. They are normally in the category of knowing so little they don't even understand what good is, never mind being able to perform to a high level.
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Genuine talent must exist, how else would people become exceptional sportspeople. The saying goes that everyone has a natural talent at something. I believe mine is irritating people. It definitely isn't skiing sadly...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| It definitely isn't skiing sadly... |
But can you ski happily?
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So are we to assume here that people without talent, surely we all have more than some and less than others, are needing to buy equipment that suits there needs now, this minute. Can we assume as they have no/little talent they need help that maybe no particular equipment can address? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Expertise implies more than just being technically competent.
I would expect an expert skier to be able to hop on to any slope in any old skis and ski it without even bothering to look at the conditions. He would also be able to see any dangers, asses the avalanche risk, finish the run on one ski if he needs to lend one to a lesser skier who has lost his. This requires talent, effort, experience and time.
Some people have estimated that to become 'expert' at a musical instrument takes 10,000 hours. This seems a lot but is probably easily covered by ESF ski instructors. However those who cannot (or will not) learn from tuition or experience will never be an expert.
I do think the definition of skiing ability is skewed for 'once per year' skiers. Skiing most pisted runs including blacks can be acheived by many good sportspeople within 2 weeks. This makes them a competent holiday skier, it doesn't mean they are any good!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I can ski OK, but since I learned to ski in 1978 and have skied for 13 weeks and one full season since then, it's pretty safe to say I have no natural talent as I rest in the intermediate phase for ever more...
Pretty sure as far as equipment goes that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference...
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So why are some people so persistently bad at skiing?
Could a talented person be someone who has enough physical fitness to do the job, and a good enough visual/kinaesthetic sense to be able to see how better people do it, copy it quickly and learn to replicate it for the future?
Does the current structure of ski teaching impose artificial stages which hold learners up - to the benefit of the ski schools?
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You know it makes sense.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| So are we to assume here that people without talent, surely we all have more than some and less than others, are needing to buy equipment that suits there needs now, this minute. Can we assume as they have no/little talent they need help that maybe no particular equipment can address? |
I think there are a very small number of people that will never be able to ski no matter what help they are given, a very small number who have abundant natural talent who will develop great expertise regardless of teaching/kit/etc, and the rest of us in the middle who will enjoy our skiing and will respond in one way or another to teaching (formal or informal), suitable kit, and time on the hill.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| Genuine talent must exist, how else would people become exceptional sportspeople |
Once again then:-
1/ Physical attributes (no good aspiring to be a champion jockey if you're built like Frank Bruno)
2/ Mental ability
3/ Physical environment (top pro ski racers don't grow up in Basildon)
4/ Social environment (it probably helps if your dad is Franz Klammer)
5/ Training & Practice
6/ Committment
You need ALL of the above and you'd be surprised how little the physical attributes matter beyond a basic level i.e. a club level athlete and a world champion will have very similar physical attributes (untrained that is)
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Poster: A snowHead
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become an expert skier in 2 weeks? mmmmmm expert is a BIG word!! and don't think 2 weeks could make anyone an 'expert'.
I'm a boarder and i would say of average ability, i can tackle reds, blacks a little bit of off piste. I can get on with most things and ride with people of all abilities.
Skiing however is new to me, obvioulsy been round good skiers a lot. My daughter is dying to learn to ski (9 years) so i promised i'd take her this season and guess what, in true 'dad of the year' spirit i'm ditching the board and learning to ski with her so it's a more enjoyable experience for her. So we have a week with 2 hours a day esf instruction and the rest of the time with us self-teaching each other. ( I have promised not to even mention boarding let alone go on one during the week). 
How will we be by the end of the week? who knows. I'd like to think we'll be doing reds but i maybe being over confident, but we're both really up for it and can't wait to get there.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Commitment can get you further than talent - You need both to reach the top of your sport tho. In the shorter time frame, ie becoming an "expert" skier in 2 weeks, thats talent.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Environment equipment physical physiological psychological tactical technical as they say, but definitely also huge differences in inherent ability with the large majority at neither the talented nor hopeless ends of the spectrum.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Intermediate: Better than i was, worse than i'd like to be, that's everybody, no?
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slikedges, The hard part is defining what "inherent ability" really means. It's easy to just call it "talent" as well but that still doesn't tell us what it is. I'd describe it as a mixuture of physical and mental attributes. None of which are likely to be exceptional in isolation. That's the interesting part and why measuring raw talent is extremely difficult.
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bbski,
IIRC correctly the 10k hours figure is actually to become an expert at anything. Sporting, musical, computing, management, gardening: anything. I wish I could remember the name of the guy whose theory it is.
Bill Gates apparently used to use the free computer at his 'local' ( 5m away) university at 2 in the morning aged 14. evey night. That's obsession, but it's what made him the best (I don't like it btw, but if your measure of expertise is money, which in business is as good a unit as any other, then you'd have to say he's very very good. But I digress.).
But the postulate was that to achieve 10k hours of practice (or indeed implementation) requires dedication, obsession, and perhaps the environment where it is nurtured (although there is also a theory that the obsessed will actually do better if having to overcome adversity).
But that's what differentiates the best from the average - we could ALL do it, IF we had the mental capacity. The fact that we haven't means (irrespective of the particular area of 'expertise') that we can't.
Of course "2 week skier becomes an expert" flies in the face of that,. but I would contend that in 2 weeks you are not a real definition of an expert - stick 'em up against a x-section of snowheads, and a talented person could do very well. Put them on a FIS track, and they'd be lost.
Just my 2p worth.
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Skis make a massive difference even for a "hacker". I skied better in 2008 after a six year break simply because the normal "Gold" hire skis had improved!
Either that or my memory of how good I used to be has faded. (I doubt this - I suspect I remember being better than I actually was!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| The Flying Snowplough wrote: |
Skis make a massive difference even for a "hacker". I skied better in 2008 after a six year break simply because the normal "Gold" hire skis had improved!
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They make some difference, but massive is a big word
Boots make more difference
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| I'd describe it as a mixuture of physical and mental attributes. None of which are likely to be exceptional in isolation. That's the interesting part and why measuring raw talent is extremely difficult. |
That is indeed the interesting part.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| The Flying Snowplough wrote: |
Skis make a massive difference even for a "hacker". I skied better in 2008 after a six year break simply because the normal "Gold" hire skis had improved!
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They make some difference, but massive is a big word
Boots make more difference |
I think if you skied on a pair of 2002 hire skis and then swapped to a 2008 pair of equivalent level you'd find a massive difference.
Maybe my memory is playing tricks, but I was much better in 2008 than in 2002 without skiing in the intervening period!
Significant may be better word than massive, though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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uktrailmonster, Wow dude, you seem to be well versed on this. Interesting stuff, i could perhaps provide you with some fun skiing with some (Novice  ) riders for some evaluation.
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An expert is someone 50 miles from home who carries a briefcase (Or 90mm+ skis, or nordica doberman SL-Rs, or 1980s 225s ). Someone with talent is someone who can dispense with the briefcase and not get chased out of town.
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You know it makes sense.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, Wow dude, you seem to be well versed on this. Interesting stuff, i could perhaps provide you with some fun skiing with some (Novice ) riders for some evaluation. |
I'm certainly no expert on sport psychology, but I know a few people who are specialists. I'm an F1 race engineer working very closely with the drivers and part of my job is to analyse their performance and assist with their training. I also get involved sometimes in young driver development and assessment. Interestingly, professional skiing seems to have always taken mental preparation and psychology very seriously. Even 25 years ago when I was a very low level club racer (I'm talking dry slope SL here), we had coaching in visualisation techniques and self hypnosis. However in top level professional motorsport, until very recently, such techniques were considered a bit gay. But times are changing and some of the most hairy a*rsed racers are starting to see the potential benefits. It's a very interesting subject with big potential.
This is a good book to read as a starting point. It's not specifically about sports psychology, more about the basics of how minds actually work and how we learn and adapt. It's an easy read, but also based on lots of proper scientific research and studies.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mind-Sculpture-Brains-Untapped-Potential/dp/0553813250/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234623548&sr=1-1&tag=amz07b-21
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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uktrailmonster, 1. what a cool job (i hope!) 2. good book recommendation, thx. I find this all fascinating.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Cunners, and your point is...?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DM - Blunted by regular use I suspect, or at least in serious need of deburring.
uktrailmonster, have I met/seen you before over at STW, or are there 2 people that I've encountered on fora with absolutely rocking jobs?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So this person in question. The 2 week "expert" that skied the Galcier Rond (love that route  btw)
Was he an expert snowboarder already? If so that's rather different as you understand the mechanics and different snow conditions etc.
In relation to equipment this has a huge influence on someone potentially being able to ski that run after 2 weeks. But they would also have to have little fear and be "naturally talented". I mean in your second week to have to negotiate an awkward decent down the arret on the Midi, followed by a walk, followed by another awkward ladder to decend with skis on your backpack and then be presented with a 45-50 degree slope that often has odd conditions on it. Then negotiate a long narrowish couloir followed by crevesas and finally a complete change in snow conditions with a ski through trees before ending up with a river crossing at the Mt Blanc tunnel entrance. All sounds a lot for someone in their second week. But the fact that someone did it (and I believe you) has so much to do with equipment. 15-20 years ago on a 60mm ski that would have been impossible. Imagine this skier being confronted with a load of wind blown crud with a 2 inch crust on the top. Now i'd say even with 100mm width skis they'd have no chance. There is no substitute for experience. So conditions would play a huge part in being able to ski the Galcier Rond. One day that I did it even the Evolution 2 guide didn't have a clue how to ski the lower section. Not a clue. He was having to traverse straight across the slope and kick turn to do the same again. And that was a full UIAGM guide ! It had a huge crust on top and then you sunk down through a few other nasty layers.
Interesting thread this.
Alex
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Cunners wrote: |
uktrailmonster, have I met/seen you before over at STW, or are there 2 people that I've encountered on fora with absolutely rocking jobs? |
Might have seen me on STW (same name), but not been over there much in the last year. Got a few colleagues over there too, so might have been one of those?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Do I believe equipment choice is less important for talented skiers? Yes - to a certain extent.
Does the ability to ski a black run make someone a good or talented skier? No, of course it doesn't.
There are so many skiers who are able to get down pretty much anything, maybe quickly, maybe without falling over, and some people may even think they look good. However, that ability does not make them necessarily a good skier, or a talented one. When I learnt to ski in Austria, aged 11, I was confidently skiing parallel down difficult reds and blacks during my first weeks' skiing. Was I talented? I was probably above average, but I wouldn't consider myself especially talented.
Seventeen years on, after numerous trips, 10 years spent instructing part-time and having learnt to snowboard, I still wouldn't consider myself talented, or an expert skier. I believe I am a good skier, partly because of instructor training (I believe to be good at something one needs to be aware of the nuts and bolts of how it works), but also because I know I have limits and I don't abuse them!
There are people whose confidence outweighs their ability (and I know of plenty of candidates who fit this description, and not just from snowsports), who end up injuring themselves or worse killing themselves - talent doesn't count for much then!
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FAQ
Furthermore, if I were a ski instructor or professional off-piste guide, I would be unlikely to be filling in a form on a transfer coach back to Turin airport. 